Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #90 - June 04, 2010, 12:03 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 11:59 AM

I'm sure you do disagree on Einstein - apparently his actual words were not clear and he meant 'something else'

The two names I gave were the ones I know of who beleive in religion (Islam and Christianity). There are many more who don't beieve in religion but appear to believe in a creator God.

http://www.nndb.com/people/302/000022236/#FN1

[1] Often used the word "God" or "Old Man" as a metaphor for the Laws of Nature. As a member of the American Humanist Association, there is little reason to think he believed in any kind of personal God. In a letter to Eric Gutkind dated 3 January 1954 he wrote, "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish... For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything chosen about them." An earlier letter to M. Berkowitz, dated 25 October 1950, uses hedged words to indicate sympathy towards agnosticism but Einstein pointedly refrains from calling himself agnostic: "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." Certainly with this view one cannot call him a Deist as some claim. The careful choice of words thus permits his atheistic view three years later. Einstein publicly claimed on several occasions that he was not an atheist, but it is difficult to square that with the private declarations to Gutkind.

OK please give names and I will check the youtube videos and find the books
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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #91 - June 04, 2010, 12:03 PM

....if anything it's the atheists on here who go on about how 'Einstien was an atheist - yey'

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #92 - June 04, 2010, 12:06 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:02 PM
well actually i've never really bought it up - i've only responded to questions about scientis who belived in acreator God or responded when people incorrectly state he was an atheist/pantheist

Yes but I'm responding to a post where you did say this, that a lot of physicists believed in a Creator God. I'm trying to figure out which ones you meant and why you think so, by looking at the evidence myself. Its fair no?

Also, please tell me what is the difference between a Personal God and a Creator God.

Lastly, forgive me if I sound brutish. I'm Debunker mode
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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #93 - June 04, 2010, 12:08 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 12:03 PM
OK please give names and I will check the youtube videos and find the books

no i can't be bothered to go back to the videos to get names - but surveys have shown that a lot of scientists do beleive in a creator God - i think even islame started a thread the other day:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10529.0

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #94 - June 04, 2010, 12:12 PM

a personal God is one who cares about the affairs of humans etc.
a creator God is one who created the universe but does not necessarily care about the affairs of humans

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #95 - June 04, 2010, 12:18 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:12 PM
a personal God is one who cares about the affairs of humans etc.
a creator God is one who created the universe but does not necessarily care about the affairs of humans

Which is essentially Theism/Deism, but Deism also implies that the creator is intelligent whereas a Pantheist accepts the universe could have been created naturally, or that god was not a conscious being and creating the universe is all it is capable of doing.

I think the Einstein argument is irrelevant. If Einstein were a Muslim it would not make me a Muslim unless he had evidence. If I am not willing to accept Einstein's opinion FOR a religion, then I would not use it as an argument against.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #96 - June 04, 2010, 12:20 PM

of course - but there's no need to call him an atheist - especially when he didn't like being called one!

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #97 - June 04, 2010, 12:26 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:08 PM
no i can't be bothered to go back to the videos to get names - but surveys have shown that a lot of scientists do beleive in a creator God - i think even islame started a thread the other day:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10529.0

No that survey showed that there is still a large majority of non-believing scientists but there is a large group that won't talk about their faith for fear of ridicule. Again, not relevant and is a red herring.

It doesn't matter, the reason why I'm asking is simply because I would be interested in their arguments for a creator god (as you put it). That's what I'm after.
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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #98 - June 04, 2010, 12:27 PM

(The following is from Einstein and Religion by Max Jammer, Princeton University Press)
"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

''I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details.'' (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)

“I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. Your counter-arguments seem to me very correct and could hardly be better formulated. It is always misleading to use anthropomorphical concepts in dealing with things outside the human sphere—childish analogies. We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of this world as far—as we can grasp it. And that is all.”

In summary - it's clear Einy didn't beleive in a personal God or any religion - but that he did beleive in a creator God.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #99 - June 04, 2010, 12:29 PM

btw Einstein's position does not support my position - i realise that

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #100 - June 04, 2010, 12:31 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:27 PM
In summary - it's clear Einy didn't beleive in a personal God or any religion - but that he did beleive in a creator God.

I dont think you can get any clearer than that.

Although I knew he believed in a creator God, I believe if he was brought up in this day & age, I still think he may have been a pantheist or an atheist.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #101 - June 04, 2010, 12:33 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 12:26 PM
No that survey showed that there is still a large majority of non-believing scientists but there is a large group that won't talk about their faith for fear of ridicule. Again, not relevant and is a red herring.

It doesn't matter, the reason why I'm asking is simply because I would be interested in their arguments for a creator god (as you put it). That's what I'm after.

well they did not give any arguments for a creator God from what I remember in those videos. the survey in that thread was not a red herring - it says apparently that 7% of elected peers at the National Academy of Sciences believe in a Creator God.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #102 - June 04, 2010, 12:35 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:20 PM
of course - but there's no need to call him an atheist - especially when he didn't like being called one!

Where did you get the info that he didn't like being called an atheist?

Quote from: AlbertEinstein
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion."

"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

I see no evidence he believed in a creator. He outright says that his feelings are NOTHING to do with mysticism.

Many scientists did (and do) use the word "God" to symbolise the beauty of the universe, that's what he meant by "how God created this universe" - otherwise he would also believe he would have felt a mystic link. It looks to me as though he was more in a position of "I don't know, and I don't care, but isn't the universe wonderful?".

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #103 - June 04, 2010, 12:35 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 04, 2010, 12:31 PM
I dont think you can get any clearer than that.

Although I knew he believed in a creator God, I believe if he was brought up in this day & age, I still think he may have been a pantheist or an atheist.

Einy was his own man and way ahead of his time - i' think he still would have been a deist - although there probably would still be people claiming he was not a 'real deist' lols

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #104 - June 04, 2010, 12:38 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:33 PM
well they did not give any arguments for a creator God from what I remember in those videos. the survey in that thread was not a red herring - it says apparently that 7% of elected peers at the National Academy of Sciences believe in a Creator God.

red herring to the argument we were having, i was interested specifically in those physicists you said believed in a creator god

but we're going in circles now
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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #105 - June 04, 2010, 12:38 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 04, 2010, 12:35 PM
Where did you get the info that he didn't like being called an atheist?

see the quote i posted

Quote
I see no evidence he believed in a creator. He outright says that his feelings are NOTHING to do with mysticism.

Many scientists did (and do) use the word "God" to symbolise the beauty of the universe, that's what he meant by "how God created this universe" - otherwise he would also believe he would have felt a mystic link. It looks to me as though he was more in a position of "I don't know, and I don't care, but isn't the universe wonderful?".

Again the quote you posted is showing Einstein didn't beleive in religion or a personal God. There is nothing to suggest he did not believe in a creator God - although feel free to assume what he meant. A creator God has nothing to do with mysticsm - it simply means the universe was created by an intelligent being

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #106 - June 04, 2010, 12:41 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 12:38 PM
red herring to the argument we were having, i was interested specifically in those physicists you said believed in a creator god

but we're going in circles now

i already said i couldn't be bothered to dig up those videos - i can't even remember which ones they specifically were

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #107 - June 04, 2010, 12:42 PM

if i come across them again i'll let you know

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #108 - June 04, 2010, 12:42 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:35 PM
Einy was his own man and way ahead of his time - i' think he still would have been a deist - although there probably would still be people claiming he was not a 'real deist' lols

Perhaps.

Not that I discount the possibility of a creator God in any case, but he would have been one of a minority of 7% of elected peers at the National Academy of Sciences so I think my conclusion is more statistically valid particularly with his religious stance being very unpopularand radical for the time; & the advances /further evidence we have uncovered since then.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #109 - June 04, 2010, 12:44 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:41 PM
i already said i couldn't be bothered to dig up those videos - i can't even remember which ones they specifically were

OK that's it. Let's have a pray off.

I pray to my God and you pray to your God and we will see who wins first.

Yaaaaaaa Zeeeeus In the name of Dawkins I pray to thee. Please punish Abu Yunus in a natural way, something that can be chalked up to coincidence but that I will claim is supernatural. Like give him diarrhea.
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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #110 - June 04, 2010, 12:45 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:42 PM
if i come across them again i'll let you know

Too late. Start praying.
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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #111 - June 04, 2010, 12:46 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:38 PM
see the quote i posted

Again the quote you posted is showing Einstein didn't beleive in religion or a personal God. There is nothing to suggest he did not believe in a creator God - although feel free to assume what he meant. A creator God has nothing to do with mysticsm - it simply means the universe was created by an intelligent being

Where he says he is "not an atheist" is he not replying to a comment where a priest claims he is an atheist for not believing in the Christian God?

You missed the important part of that quote:
"If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it"

So his "religion" is only awe for the wonder of the universe, so we can agree he had no religion. However, he does say his feelings are NOTHING to do with mysticism...

Mystic
noun a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to attain unity with the Deity and reach truths beyond human understanding.

Mystical
adjective 1 relating to mystics or mysticism. 2 having a spiritual significance that transcends human understanding. 3 inspiring a sense of spiritual mystery, awe, and fascination

Looks like he was an "I don't care" kind of person who (like many) practised the unfortunate habit of calling the wonders of the universe "God". He wasn't an atheist, pantheist, deist, or theist. Looks like he was closer to agnostic, but one that saw nothing to convince him to be otherwise.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #112 - June 04, 2010, 12:47 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 12:44 PM
Please punish Abu Yunus in a natural way, something that can be chalked up to coincidence but that I will claim is supernatural. Like give him diarrhea.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #113 - June 04, 2010, 12:53 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 04, 2010, 12:46 PM
Where he says he is "not an atheist" is he not replying to a comment where a priest claims he is an atheist for not believing in the Christian God?

You missed the important part of that quote:
"If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it"

So his "religion" is only awe for the wonder of the universe, so we can agree he had no religion. However, he does say his feelings are NOTHING to do with mysticism...

Mystic
noun a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to attain unity with the Deity and reach truths beyond human understanding.

Mystical
adjective 1 relating to mystics or mysticism. 2 having a spiritual significance that transcends human understanding. 3 inspiring a sense of spiritual mystery, awe, and fascination

Looks like he was an "I don't care" kind of person who (like many) practised the unfortunate habit of calling the wonders of the universe "God". He wasn't an atheist, pantheist, deist, or theist. Looks like he was closer to agnostic, but one that saw nothing to convince him to be otherwise.

Again - dude it's quite clear he was not religous at all - no need to try and convince me of this. We are talking about his belief in a creator God - this has nothing to do with mysticism either.

His quotes are pretty clear - but i'm sure people will try to interpret them in other ways

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #114 - June 04, 2010, 12:57 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 12:53 PM
Again - dude it's quite clear he was not religous at all - no need to try and convince me of this. We are talking about his belief in a creator God - this has nothing to do with mysticism either.

His quotes are pretty clear - but i'm sure people will try to interpret them in other ways

The only quote you gave where I see him say anything like "creator God" was where he says that he wants to know "how God created the universe". But considering he had the habit of saying "God" to mean "the wonderful mysterious bits we don't know yet" it doesn't mean he thought that "God" had a mind; I can see Hawking saying something very similar and he is certainly an atheist. In fact his book ends with words something like "And then we will truly know the mind of God".

So this statement can be interpreted either way. However where he says that his beliefs are nothing to do with mysticism he is being perfectly clear. Mysticism IS about the supernatural/spiritual/deism. So he has clearly said that his beliefs are nothing to do with (God that has a conscious), although he also doesn't say that he outright disbelieves in such a god either.

The best you can get for this guy is agnostic.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #115 - June 04, 2010, 12:58 PM

Yeah, sorry mate, I'm with AbuY on this one

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #116 - June 04, 2010, 01:00 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 04, 2010, 12:58 PM
Yeah, sorry mate, I'm with AbuY on this one

Based on what? The sentence "How God created the universe"? What about the statement where he outright states his beliefs are not mystical?

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #117 - June 04, 2010, 01:04 PM

Just the feel I get from reading all related quotes from Einstein on this matter. Atheists/deists/pantheists are normally clear to distinguish about what they do/and dont believe as their are subtle differences between one position and the next.

Although your questions do raise an air of ambiguity, I think the best fit scenario is that is was a deist leaning closely towards pantheism but I might be wrong.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #118 - June 04, 2010, 01:06 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 04, 2010, 12:57 PM
The only quote you gave where I see him say anything like "creator God" was where he says that he wants to know "how God created the universe". But considering he had the habit of saying "God" to mean "the wonderful mysterious bits we don't know yet" it doesn't mean he thought that "God" had a mind; I can see Hawking saying something very similar and he is certainly an atheist. In fact his book ends with words something like "And then we will truly know the mind of God".

So this statement can be interpreted either way. However where he says that his beliefs are nothing to do with mysticism he is being perfectly clear. Mysticism IS about the supernatural/spiritual/deism. So he has clearly said that his beliefs are nothing to do with (God that has a conscious), although he also doesn't say that he outright disbelieves in such a god either.

The best you can get for this guy is agnostic.

well there's also:

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

You are clearly placing assumptions on what Einstein meant when he was talking - you've started to claim that when he said God he meant something else (as have many people before you). But if we look at his actual words it's apparent he did beleive in a creator God although he though religion or a personal God was nonsense - so please stop assuming what he meant/didn't mean. There's no reason to be comparing him to Stepehn Hawking either - who is an agnostic by the way and not an atheist from what I understand.

I'm sure you'll still carry on claimimg he was an atheist or an agnostic or whatever so let's agree to disagree here - like we said earlier it doesn't give either position any credit either way.

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Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
Reply #119 - June 04, 2010, 01:12 PM

so this statement:

"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

proves he did not beleive in a creator God? He is simply and quite clearly talking about the feelings he gets when he wonders at the beauty of the universe - which he says is a 'genuinley religous feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism'.

I think your reaching for something that's not there my freind.

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