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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate

 (Read 37198 times)
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  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #210 - June 05, 2010, 01:19 AM

    Hypothetically, if the technology existed let's say that you could live forever, in your present body, or a body of your choosing and you could retain your memories, would you choose it?

    That's a different question whose answer has no bearing on whether there is an afterlife (or soul) or not.
    But to answer your question, I probably would. Roll Eyes

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #211 - June 05, 2010, 01:20 AM

    Thats because your defintion of an atheist, is not the same as theirs.   Sounds like you are assuming that an atheist knows with 100% certainty that there is no creator.  

    They say until evidence is put on the table, then they will believe there is no such thing.


    You know what. It's entirely possible you're correct.

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #212 - June 05, 2010, 01:23 AM

    gents/ ladies thank you, i think id like to pick this up later when im not so tired. Thank you kindly for your insights and for making me think!

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #213 - June 05, 2010, 01:24 AM

    Wanna know something freaky? How do you know the atoms you have today are the once you were born with?

    I was keeping things simple.  You're right, the atoms that make up our body are constantly getting recycled too. Tongue

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #214 - June 05, 2010, 03:47 AM

    so the soul. the afterlife and the existence of something or nothing.
    The soul.

    In hinduism you have a couple of sates, deva loa, patal, pitri loka, states of the aterlife depending on your karma accrued and its a case of your soul goes into a higher state for a period of time, and then you get reborn. christanity the souls has states of heaven and hell, the same i'm assuming for islam. Its final. where as hinduism seems more of a cycle.

     Do you hope there is no afterlife?


    If an 'after-life' is what you described above, then I honestly don't care. You've just completely detached the soul from physicality. I am my thoughts, my memories, my experiences, my abilities, my faults, my successes, my failures, my triumphs, my mistakes... you take that away and it's no longer me. So I die, I die, but some piece of divinity remains, something that completely detaches itself from everything that makes me, that is me. And I'm supposed to care what happens to it? Well I don't. So no, I do not hope for such an after-life.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #215 - June 05, 2010, 04:04 AM

    My original question was if Atheists believe 100% that there is no afterlife and how could they come to the conclusion as definatie if they could not disprove the existence of an afterlife. basically i was trying to figure out why Atheists weren't agnostics.


    Some atheists are, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Atheism isn't actually a statement about god's existence, it's a statement about belief. You can ask me the question "Is there a god?" and I can answer -

    Yes there is, or
    No there isn't, or
    I don't know either way.

    You can also ask the question "Do you believe there is a god?" to which I can only respond -

    Yes I do, or
    No I don't.

    Most atheists I would assume would answer "I don't know" to the first and obviously "No I don't" to the second. This is my position. I do not know if there is a god, but I know that I do not believe there is.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #216 - June 05, 2010, 04:31 AM

    Most atheists I would assume would answer "I don't know" to the first and obviously "No I don't" to the second. This is my position. I do not know if there is a god, but I know that I do not believe there is.



    This!

    Very succintly put.

  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #217 - June 05, 2010, 07:20 AM

    I have a question on atheism. I hope no one takes offence to my question ( this is not a prelude to an offence question hopefully!)

    For most of my life i have been agnostic, believing there was something out there, not sure what it was. I never thought of myself as an atheist. Simply because i believe that no one knows what happens when you die or can know what happens when you die. If you believe in scientific method, or logic, how can come to a finite conclusion if there is no way of measuring what happens when you die?


    You have the wrong impression of atheism.  In essence atheism is admitting that we have no evidence for God/after-life, and because we do not give things like fairies, trolls, leprechauns the benefit of the doubt why should God be any different?  Atheism is a scale from "There's no evidence so I don't see why I should assume there is a God" through to "There is no evidence and I really believe there isn't one".

    If you want to bring the scientific method into it, it is more accurate to say "There is most probably no God".

    Agnosticism is just fence sitting Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #218 - June 05, 2010, 07:26 PM

    I completely agree with Rationaliza. Einstein's use of 'created the universe' was metaphoric. When he said he didn't want to be labelled an atheist, he was talking about those he called 'fanatical atheists'. Atheist who 'are still feeling the weights of religion's chains' and therefore 'cannot hear the music of the spheres'. In any case, he didn't claim to know what his own beliefs were. He said he wasn't preoccupied with those questions, he was 'satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life'. So yeah, it may be a little presumptuous to claim Einstein was an atheist, but it's equally so to claim he believed in an intelligent being.
    n
    And yeah, his beliefs seem to be very similar to Hawking's.

    "Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the Universe." - Stephen Hawking when asked if he believed in God.

    The mind of god, or as Einstein put it "god's thoughts", is just a metaphor for the laws of nature.

    In that sense it's easy to see why people believe he was a pantheist. And he only said 'I don't think I can call myself a pantheist'. Again, he was, as rationaliza put it, an 'I don't care' sort of guy. Tongue


    I probably agree that Einsteins view on God were not clear. But i'd rather go by his actual words rather than what people over the years 'thought he meant instead'. I agree his view of a creator God was not a classic or a simple one but it's clear from an his actual words he did believe in a creator God. He also clearly stated he was not an atheist I'll just leave with a few quotes from the dude  himself and let peops make up their own minds


    (The following is from Einstein and Religion by Max Jammer, Princeton University Press)
    "I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

    "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

    ''I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details.'' (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)

    “I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. Your counter-arguments seem to me very correct and could hardly be better formulated. It is always misleading to use anthropomorphical concepts in dealing with things outside the human sphere—childish analogies. We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of this world as far—as we can grasp it. And that is all.”


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #219 - June 05, 2010, 07:28 PM

    I wish Einstein was still here. I'd kick back and ask him "Who will win the Word Cup this year?"
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #220 - June 05, 2010, 07:29 PM

    I probably agree that Einsteins view on God were not clear. But i'd rather go by his actual words rather tha what people over the years 'thought he meant instead'. I agree his view of a creator God was not a classic or a simple one but it's clear from an his actual words he did believ in a creator God. He also clearly stated he was not an atheist I'll just leave with a few quotes from the dude  himself and let peops make up their own minds




    No it isn't, far from it.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #221 - June 05, 2010, 07:40 PM

    I probably agree that Einsteins view on God were not clear. But i'd rather go by his actual words rather than what people over the years 'thought he meant instead'. I agree his view of a creator God was not a classic or a simple one but it's clear from an his actual words he did believe in a creator God. He also clearly stated he was not an atheist I'll just leave with a few quotes from the dude  himself and let peops make up their own minds


    (The following is from Einstein and Religion by Max Jammer, Princeton University Press)
    "I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."


    Nowhere there does he say anything about a creator.

    Quote
    "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."


    Source?

    Quote
    ''I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details.'' (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)


    Again, Einstein, and many other scientists, can, and have, used this sort of language metaphorically.

    Quote
    “I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. Your counter-arguments seem to me very correct and could hardly be better formulated. It is always misleading to use anthropomorphical concepts in dealing with things outside the human sphere—childish analogies. We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of this world as far—as we can grasp it. And that is all.”


    Again, where is the creator?

    Like I said, it's presumptuous to say Einstein was an atheist, but it's also so to say he believed in a higher intelligent being. The most we can say, is he that humbly admired the order in the cosmos, so much so that he said he was religious in 'that sense, and in that sense only'.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #222 - June 05, 2010, 07:42 PM

    I don't get this.

    And I don't get you Abu. You already didn't 'believe' in the ahadith, now you say the qur'an was only meant for a certain time. So effectively what you've said is that Islam is no longer relevant, yet you still call yourself a Muslim? I don't know why you try so hard to persist with the 'Muslim' tag, maybe it's because of family, maybe it's just because you want to save your gooner ass from hell. Tongue In any case, you're not doing any harm or imposing your beliefs on others, so I respect your beliefs, no matter how silly I find them.  Wink


    i think it's because if God does exist, the last thing i'd want to do is turn my back on him - not because of fear of hell etc. (i've actually never felt the fear of hell). i don't know if islam is true, but like you said as long as i don't impose my faith on any one then it shouldn't be a problem to anyone

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #223 - June 05, 2010, 07:47 PM

    We just say that to be nice. It is a in fact a major problem.

     cool2

    Jokes aside (!) is Allah like a Parent?
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #224 - June 05, 2010, 07:47 PM

    I think it's because if God does exist, the last thing i'd want to do is turn my back on him -


    Why though? Do you think God is going to get upset? And by saying that he's intended for our morality to have fully 'evolved' by now to the point that we no longer need holy scripture, effectively you're saying that God wants us to turn our backs on him.

    How do you feel about the consumption of pork? (I'm sorry if you've answered this before, I'm just curious.)
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #225 - June 05, 2010, 07:49 PM

    i think it's because if God does exist, the last thing i'd want to do is turn my back on him - not because of fear of hell etc. (i've actually never felt the fear of hell). i don't know if islam is true, but like you said as long as i don't impose my faith on any one then it shouldn't be a problem to anyone


    Turn YOUR back on HIM?  One thing is absolutely clear, if something created this universe then once it had done so it left us utterly alone.  We suffer the same misery from hunger/disease etc that all animals in the world do, the ONLY thing that helps us is our own intellect - and that isn't that far above a chimp on the grand scale of things (assuming there is a God to compare us all to.)

    Believe in God if you like, but there is NO WAY that Islam is true.  None at all.  I know it, you know it, we all know it.  It's bollocks, plain and simple.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #226 - June 05, 2010, 07:50 PM

    Einstein was actually a Muslim! Fuck yeah!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it4fy494uKg

    (He says Allahu Akbar in one of his letters, presumably to express his admiration for nature in these Arabic words.)

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #227 - June 05, 2010, 07:52 PM

    Turn YOUR back on HIM?  One thing is absolutely clear, if something created this universe then once it had done so it left us utterly alone.  We suffer the same misery from hunger/disease etc that all animals in the world do, the ONLY thing that helps us is our own intellect - and that isn't that far above a chimp on the grand scale of things (assuming there is a God to compare us all to.)

    Believe in God if you like, but there is NO WAY that Islam is true.  None at all.  I know it, you know it, we all know it.  It's bollocks, plain and simple.


    ROFL
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #228 - June 05, 2010, 07:54 PM

    Source?



    i've seen the quote in many articles , here's one of them:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4044/is_200507/ai_n15328838/?tag=content;col1

    i think they give the reference to the original source in that article - my computers a bit slow today so can't be bothered to look it up  Tongue

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #229 - June 05, 2010, 07:55 PM

    Turn YOUR back on HIM?  One thing is absolutely clear, if something created this universe then once it had done so it left us utterly alone.  We suffer the same misery from hunger/disease etc that all animals in the world do, the ONLY thing that helps us is our own intellect - and that isn't that far above a chimp on the grand scale of things (assuming there is a God to compare us all to.)

    Believe in God if you like, but there is NO WAY that Islam is true.  None at all.  I know it, you know it, we all know it.  It's bollocks, plain and simple.


    bedrin guan harsh. calm down dude.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #230 - June 05, 2010, 07:57 PM


    Like I said, it's presumptuous to say Einstein was an atheist, but it's also so to say he believed in a higher intelligent being. The most we can say, is he that humbly admired the order in the cosmos, so much so that he said he was religious in 'that sense, and in that sense only'.


    when you put it like that i can't argue - maybe you're right  Smiley

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #231 - June 05, 2010, 07:59 PM

    Abu is Allah Papa?

    Papa Allah?  Cry Muhammad bit my finger. Ow Muhammad. You bit me!

    Allah - Go to your room Aisha I'm working on a new earthquake. And Muhammad *sigh* can't you find somebody your age to play with her and she with you?? ... What do you mean Saffiya is too fat? That's what 4:34 is for make her lose the fucking weight!

    From the Show "Raising Muhammad"
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #232 - June 05, 2010, 08:00 PM

    i've seen the quote in many articles , here's one of them:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4044/is_200507/ai_n15328838/?tag=content;col1

    i think they give the reference to the original source in that article - my computers a bit slow today so can't be bothered to look it up  Tongue


    I have too. That link isn't working on my comp for some reason. :s

    I think it's one of those 'he-said-she-said' quotes.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #233 - June 05, 2010, 08:00 PM

    Why though? Do you think God is going to get upset? And by saying that he's intended for our morality to have fully 'evolved' by now to the point that we no longer need holy scripture, effectively you're saying that God wants us to turn our backs on him.

    How do you feel about the consumption of pork? (I'm sorry if you've answered this before, I'm just curious.)


    i don't think God will get upset, but it's personally something i'd rather not do. my personal belief is that everything we have is because of God - he is the reason i can love my wife and son - i don't want to ignore him

    pork is a personal preference - i don't think it could be  considered a 'sin'

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #234 - June 05, 2010, 08:05 PM

    if its between islam and atheism then i will register a non-vote  Wink

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #235 - June 05, 2010, 08:07 PM

    yeah - if i ever left islam, pretty sure it would be deism for me

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #236 - June 05, 2010, 08:29 PM

    I don't understand why people argue what Einstein believed. He did some awesome shit in Physics and was very intelligent, but arguing whether he was Deist, Agnostic, Atheist, etc. doesn't matter really, and to quote him in support of any of the beliefs is just silly.

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #237 - June 05, 2010, 08:29 PM

    i don't think God will get upset, but it's personally something i'd rather not do. my personal belief is that everything we have is because of God - he is the reason i can love my wife and son - i don't want to ignore him

    When I wrote "ignore" in that post of mine on page 2 I wasn't implying that one should reject or be ignorant of god. It's a different type of "ignore". In fact it's an epitome of respect.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #238 - June 05, 2010, 08:30 PM

    i've seen the quote in many articles , here's one of them:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4044/is_200507/ai_n15328838/?tag=content;col1

    i think they give the reference to the original source in that article - my computers a bit slow today so can't be bothered to look it up  Tongue


    Yeah I looked it up and it's not a direct quote.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein's_religious_views

    And from that ^ we can see that he was clearly agnostic and that he never claimed he believed in a creator god.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #239 - June 05, 2010, 08:38 PM

    Quote
    And from that ^ we can see that he was clearly agnostic and that he never claimed he believed in a creator god


    ok screw it, what the heck - he was an atheist, you dudes are driving me nuts!

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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