could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please

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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #60 - June 14, 2010, 11:00 AM

MODS I WANT ALL MY POSTS TO BE REPLACED WITH SHAKIRA PICS
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #61 - June 14, 2010, 11:05 AM

X man, the answer to your question lies here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10705.msg284209#msg284209

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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #62 - June 14, 2010, 11:52 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on June 14, 2010, 11:05 AM
X man, the answer to your question lies here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10705.msg284209#msg284209

...
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #63 - June 14, 2010, 01:29 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on June 14, 2010, 11:05 AM
X man, the answer to your question lies here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10705.msg284209#msg284209

i seem to be goign around in circles, why have you forsaken me

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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #64 - June 14, 2010, 05:02 PM

OK, just translating a bit from Abd al-Noor's book and thought about this thread.

Here is a verse of the Qur'an - I won't say which one it is as I'd rather hear your opinions before you look it up

For those who can read Arabic this is the verse (and I'd be interested in what you think of the language and phrasing):

إِذًا لَأَذَقْنَاكَ ضِعْفَ الْحَيَاةِ وَضِعْفَ الْمَمَاتِ ثُمَّ لَا تَجِدُ لَكَ عَلَيْنَا نَصِيرًا

Now here are three translations (yes they are Shakir YA and Pickthal - but I've mixed them up.)

Please tell me which translation you think is better? and why? (Please give your opinion first before looking it up)

In that case We would certainly have made you to taste a double (punishment) in this life and a double (punishment) after death, then you would not have found any helper against Us.

In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death: and moreover thou wouldst have found none to help thee against Us!

Then had we made thee taste a double (punishment) of living and a double (punishment) of dying, then hadst thou found no helper against Us.

 
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #65 - June 14, 2010, 09:29 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 14, 2010, 09:23 PM
I dont understand The better translation is the one that is closest to the original meaning, and without knowing Arabic its impossible to say.

Are you asking which is the easiest to understand?

Well I was looking for both opinions (I mean what reads well and for those who know Arabic to say which is best) - but it's OK - the best in this case (imho) was Shakir's - but all are flawed - and the point I was also trying to make is that translation is a matter of interpretation since it is simply not possible in most cases to give a literal translation.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #66 - June 14, 2010, 09:40 PM

Is the bottom one Shakir's? It seems to conform most closely to the Arabic in terms of being terse and not using the bloated and verbose language that you get from YA.

But then, my Arabic's shit, what do I know?
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #67 - June 14, 2010, 09:50 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 14, 2010, 09:40 PM
Is the bottom one Shakir's? It seems to conform most closely to the Arabic in terms of being terse and not using the bloated and verbose language that you get from YA.

But then, my Arabic's shit, what do I know?

It was the first in my post - the one you chose was Pickthal - they're all much of a muchness really. But as you can see they all added the word Punishment in parenthesis. Just wanted to make the point that translation cannot be literal in most cases as it loses the original meaning. Words, phrases and idioms in one language simply cannot always be translated literally and the translator is then left with trying to stay true to what the meaning is and this is of course where one's stance can influence and bias the translation.

017.075
YUSUFALI: In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death: and moreover thou wouldst have found none to help thee against Us!
PICKTHAL: Then had we made thee taste a double (punishment) of living and a double (punishment) of dying, then hadst thou found no helper against Us.
SHAKIR: In that case We would certainly have made you to taste a double (punishment) in this life and a double (punishment) after death, then you would not have found any helper against Us.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #68 - June 14, 2010, 10:06 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 14, 2010, 09:50 PM
It was the first in my post - the one you chose was Pickthal - they're all much of a muchness really. But as you can see they all added the word Punishment in parenthesis. Just wanted to make the point that translation cannot be literal in most cases as it loses the original meaning. Words, phrases and idioms in one language simply cannot always be translated literally and the translator is then left with trying to stay true to what the meaning is and this is of course where one's stance can influence and bias the translation.

017.075
YUSUFALI: In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death: and moreover thou wouldst have found none to help thee against Us!
PICKTHAL: Then had we made thee taste a double (punishment) of living and a double (punishment) of dying, then hadst thou found no helper against Us.
SHAKIR: In that case We would certainly have made you to taste a double (punishment) in this life and a double (punishment) after death, then you would not have found any helper against Us.

Yeah, from what I know Pickthall's translation is a pretty good one. But here's the Aal al-Bayt one, which only gives a literal translation of the verse.

[17:75]
Then We would have surely made you taste a double in life and a double upon death. Then you would not have found for yourself any helper against Us.

It's a very useful translation. It's completely literal and, the vast majority of the time, only uses the words that appear in the Arabic text, in as much as is possible.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #69 - June 14, 2010, 10:25 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 14, 2010, 10:06 PM
Yeah, from what I know Pickthall's translation is a pretty good one. But here's the Aal al-Bayt one, which only gives a literal translation of the verse.

[17:75]
Then We would have surely made you taste a double in life and a double upon death. Then you would not have found for yourself any helper against Us.

It's a very useful translation. It's completely literal and, the vast majority of the time, only uses the words that appear in the Arabic text, in as much as is possible.

But that doesn't make sense? In fact it is misleading as it leaves it even more open to different interpretation than the actual Arabic suggests. Taste a double life? Live twice? Two deaths? The text in Arabic is saying that had Muhammad done that God would have punished him double in this life and the next - but the 'literal' translation doesn't convey that and as I say it is open to even more wild and wonderful views than is really there.

On top of that it is not even a totally literal translation. This bit is not actually literal: a double in life and a double upon death. Nowhere does it say in or upon - so why choose to interpolate that and not other bits that the text clearly means?

This is my literal translation. (and of course I'm not suggesting this is what it should be translated as)

إِذًا لَأَذَقْنَاكَ ضِعْفَ الْحَيَاةِ وَضِعْفَ الْمَمَاتِ ثُمَّ لَا تَجِدُ لَكَ عَلَيْنَا نَصِيرًا

Then we surely made you taste life's double and death's double then you don't find for you against us a helper

There are better examples too - which if translated literally make little sense and are misleading.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #70 - June 14, 2010, 10:39 PM

You're both right. A verse should be translated up to a point that it makes sense in English, and whilst staying true to the disctionary defintion of the word.

For example in 4:34 beat (lightly) - there is no excuse for adding the word lightly here, and is a mistranslation.

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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #71 - June 14, 2010, 10:43 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 14, 2010, 10:39 PM
For example in 4:34 beat (lightly) - there is no excuse for adding the word lightly here, and is a mistranslation.

Absolutely! The text of the Qur'an does not in any way suggest "light" - that was YA tafseer that he shouldn't have inserted - if he wanted to make that point he should have put it in the footnotes - not the actual text.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #72 - June 14, 2010, 10:49 PM

And please don't take this the wrong way but someone with an Arabic (or French or Cantonese or Hausa...) dictionary in their hand can't just walk off the street and start translating a book 'literally' and think that is the best translation. One simply has to have a deep understanding of the language and the text - even most Arabs are not qualified to translate the Qur'an properly.

This is what a lot of the Qur'an only Muslims on free-minds - for example - do and their translations are laughable - one can make things mean what one wants if one has a dictionary and an agenda.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #73 - June 14, 2010, 10:58 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 14, 2010, 10:25 PM
But that doesn't make sense? In fact it is misleading as it leaves it even more open to different interpretation than the actual Arabic suggests. Taste a double life? Live twice? Two deaths? The text in Arabic is saying that had Muhammad done that God would have punished him double in this life and the next - but the 'literal' translation doesn't convey that and as I say it is open to even more wild and wonderful views than is really there.

On top of that it is not even a totally literal translation. This bit is not actually literal: a double in life and a double upon death. Nowhere does it say in or upon - so why choose to interpolate that and not other bits that the text clearly means?

This is my literal translation. (and of course I'm not suggesting this is what it should be translated as)

إِذًا لَأَذَقْنَاكَ ضِعْفَ الْحَيَاةِ وَضِعْفَ الْمَمَاتِ ثُمَّ لَا تَجِدُ لَكَ عَلَيْنَا نَصِيرًا

Then we surely made you taste life's double and death's double then you don't find for you against us a helper

There are better examples too - which if translated literally make little sense and are misleading.

Well, I only use it to learn what words are actually being used, not as an explanation of the verse's meaning.

It's not perfect, of course. It's just the closest rendering of the original Arabic that I've seen, without adding new words and reinterpreting them.

I don't like to rely solely on translations anyway, though. If there's a verse of particular interest or importance, I'll just refer to the Arabic and translate it word for word, and read what the tafsirs say about it.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #74 - June 14, 2010, 11:03 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 14, 2010, 10:39 PM
You're both right. A verse should be translated up to a point that it makes sense in English, and whilst staying true to the disctionary defintion of the word.

For example in 4:34 beat (lightly) - there is no excuse for adding the word lightly here, and is a mistranslation.

I'd wager given the importance of that particular issue he felt it necessary to insert that, especially considering the opinions of the madhahab on the subject.

Besides, YA's translation isn't exactly 100% in conformity with the Arabic. It's his interpretation of the meaning, not necessarily the literal, face-value understanding.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #75 - June 14, 2010, 11:14 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 14, 2010, 10:58 PM
I don't like to rely solely on translations anyway, though. If there's a verse of particular interest or importance, I'll just refer to the Arabic and translate it word for word, and read what the tafsirs say about it.

Thats prob the fairest way of doing it. btw I never came across Aal al-Bayt translation before yourself - do you have a good website where I can source he entire translation for future reference?

Also you seem to have a good understanding of the Quran & Arabic, particularly for a never been muslim - what sparked off your interest?

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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #76 - June 14, 2010, 11:31 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 14, 2010, 11:14 PM
Thats prob the fairest way of doing it. btw I never came across Aal al-Bayt translation before yourself - do you have a good website where I can source he entire translation for future reference?

Also you seem to have a good understanding of the Quran & Arabic, particularly for a never been muslim - what sparked off your interest?

http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslations.asp?Display=yes&SoraNo=1&Ayah=0&Language=2&LanguageID=2&TranslationBook=3

It's in the list of translations, along with YA, Asad, Pickthall, Taqi Uthmani, Arberry, etc.

And I just find that Islam is an interesting religion, and an important one. Christianity and Judaism are moribund/diluted, unlike Islam, and the religion continues to have considerable influence in the modern day.

At the same time, I've had exchanges with Muslims. They make all kinds of claims about Islam and the Qur'an, and its alleged miraculousness. Some claims are laughable and demonstrably false, others are not so clearly nonsensical, and take more knowledge to refute.

But either way, I suspect I'll be studying this religion for a while yet. It seems that it, along with a few other things, is something that I can spend my time learning about and discussing. I'm even considering moving to the Middle East for a while to learn Arabic, which of course, one has to know to study the core texts of Islam.
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #77 - June 14, 2010, 11:36 PM

Quote
But either way, I suspect I'll be studying this religion for a while yet. It seems that it, along with a few other things, is something that I can spend my time learning about and discussing. I'm even considering moving to the Middle East for a while to learn Arabic, which of course, one has to know to study the core texts of Islam.

then go to Lebanon! The Lebanese are the only Arabs who can speak classical Arabic without any accent.

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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #78 - June 14, 2010, 11:49 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 13, 2010, 09:20 PM
I think he translated the verses from surah 86 more or less accurately.

[86:5]
Now let man but think from what he is created!

[86:6]
He is created from a drop emitted-

[86:7]
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

regarding these verses, see my discussion with AbuYunus here:

post#13
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.msg216970#msg216970

post#25
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.msg216987#msg216987

post#33
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.msg217024#msg217024

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
Reply #79 - June 15, 2010, 07:34 AM

Quote from: debunker on June 14, 2010, 11:49 PM
regarding these verses, see my discussion with AbuYunus here:

post#13
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.msg216970#msg216970

post#25
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.msg216987#msg216987

post#33
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.msg217024#msg217024

Yeah, yeah. I've looked at them and decided even if Muhammad was mistaken in them or something, they're simply too vague and open to interpretations to either be definitely wrong or right.

Quote from: debunker on June 14, 2010, 11:36 PM
then go to Lebanon! The Lebanese are the only Arabs who can speak classical Arabic without any accent.

Funnily enough, I was talking to someone the other day and he mentioned that one of his friends went to study Arabic in Lebanon. So maybe I will go there
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