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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193262 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1080 - June 24, 2010, 09:52 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 09:39 AM
    You are using "nothing is like him" in a fallacious way.

    As to imply that nothing can have a feature that God possesses or that God possesses only characteristics that nobody else has.

    Such theory can be disproved quickly:
    God is supposedly immortal
    Human souls are supposedly immortal

    So, technically, if you believe in all that religious stuff, humans are indeed "like God" in some ways.
    For example, immortality :|


    Nothing but God is perfect... to say that God has the human form is to say that the human form is perfect.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1081 - June 24, 2010, 09:55 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 09:50 AM
    He could have a form, but it certainly ain't the human form!


    No he should not have a form. Because a form means space. It means he is limited.

    Even using the word HE means he is limited.

    How did he even choose his form? Is his form eternal? Did he design his form? Then shouldn't he have known in advance he was going to change his form?

    Do you see what I mean? This makes no sense.

    God can not be explained. Can not be understood.

    This is good.

    You know what the problem is though. How do we then relate to God?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1082 - June 24, 2010, 09:57 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 09:52 AM
    Nothing but God is perfect... to say that God has the human form is to say that the human form is perfect.

    Fallacious reasoning again Grin

    If X is perfect
    and
    If Y has something of X
    then
    Y is not necessarily perfect

    You can replace "perfect" with any other adjective.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1083 - June 24, 2010, 09:59 AM
    Correction: "the part of Y that is the same as X is not necessarily perfect"

    Which is more like what you were trying to say.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1084 - June 24, 2010, 10:04 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 09:57 AM
    Fallacious reasoning again Grin

    If X is perfect
    and
    If Y has something of X
    then
    Y is not necessarily perfect

    You can replace "perfect" with any other adjective.


    And who said man has something of God?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1085 - June 24, 2010, 10:07 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 24, 2010, 09:55 AM
    No he should not have a form. Because a form means space. It means he is limited.

    Even using the word HE means he is limited.

    How did he even choose his form? Is his form eternal? Did he design his form? Then shouldn't he have known in advance he was going to change his form?

    Do you see what I mean? This makes no sense.

    God can not be explained. Can not be understood.

    This is good.

    You know what the problem is though. How do we then relate to God?


    Of course God canot be explained, even the Quran says so.. We cannot comprehend God... Scriptures only aim at projecting a very limited version of the truth of God... 
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1086 - June 24, 2010, 10:13 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 10:04 AM
    And who said man has something of God?

    I will play along with your own silly game of diverting the subject:
    And who mentioned God in my post?

    Lmao Grin
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1087 - June 24, 2010, 10:20 AM
    Ok smartass, how about you rephrase what you're trying to say in small words, small enough for me to understand? Smiley
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1088 - June 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
    i haven't been following the discussion closely but isn't our soul something we get directly from God?:

    "But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!''  (32:9)

    "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.''  (15:29)
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1089 - June 24, 2010, 10:28 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 10:20 AM
    Ok smartass, how about you rephrase what you're trying to say in small words, small enough for me to understand? Smiley

    Lol ok.

    You basically said that:
    - If God is the only thing that is perfect (implicit hypothesis)
    Then:
    - "Man has the form of God" is a false sentence
    Because:
    - If man has the form of God, then the form of man is perfect

    And that contradicts the hypothesis

    But that logical passage where you implied that "if man has the form of God, then the form of man is perfect" is logically incorrect.

    Because you are assuming that the part of something perfect (in this case, its form) is perfect itself.

    And that's a fallacy of division
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1090 - June 24, 2010, 10:38 AM
    Ok, let me first make sure I understand you:

    Let's say that it is considered perfection for a hand to have 5 fingers. This necessarily means God's hand must have 5 fingers, am I wrong?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1091 - June 24, 2010, 10:39 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
    i haven't been following the discussion closely but isn't our soul something we get directly from God?:

    "But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!''  (32:9)

    "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.''  (15:29)


    Abu, that's a very weird subject I rarely try to think about.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1092 - June 24, 2010, 11:04 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 10:38 AM
    Ok, let me first make sure I understand you:

    Let's say that it is considered perfection for a hand to have 5 fingers. This necessarily means God's hand must have 5 fingers, am I wrong?

    You are neither wrong nor right.

    If we say that it is considered perfection for a hand to have 5 fingers, then the hypothesis that "God is the only perfect thing" is automatically false.
    Because then something else exists that is perfect: for example my hand.

    So I cannot say if you are wrong or right because the hypothesis you picked in your example contradicts already the hypothesis that God is the only perfect thing.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1093 - June 24, 2010, 11:10 AM
    You have to approach it from the opposite direction:

    Let's imagine that God is the only perfect thing, and that God has a physical form that is like the human form.
    (I admit this is a funny concept for me as well, but for the sake of the argument let's admit it's like that)

    Such thing does not imply that the physical form of God (and of man) is perfect, because it's entirely possible that having such physical form is a NECESSARY condition for perfection, but not a SUFFICIENT one.

    I.E. it's possible that the perfect being MUST have the same form of a human to be perfect, but that having the form of a human does not automatically imply that such being is perfect.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1094 - June 24, 2010, 11:11 AM
    Anyway, although I don't understand what you said above, I just wanted to explain why I don't see how the "fallacy of division" applies to what I was discussing.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1095 - June 24, 2010, 11:13 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 11:10 AM
    You have to approach it from the opposite direction:

    Let's imagine that God is the only perfect thing, and that God has a physical form that is like the human form.
    (I admit this is a funny concept for me as well, but for the sake of the argument let's admit it's like that)

    Such thing does not imply that the physical form of God (and of man) is perfect, because it's entirely possible that having such physical form is a NECESSARY condition for perfection, but not a SUFFICIENT one.

    I.E. it's possible that the perfect being MUST have the same form of a human to be perfect, but that having the form of a human does not automatically imply that such being is perfect.

    Ok, now that's a different argument, and honestly it does make sense, but I have to think about it more.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1096 - June 24, 2010, 11:15 AM
    Ok, let's try this: Nothing about man is perfect. Therefore, God cannot share the same form of man.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1097 - June 24, 2010, 11:17 AM
    Does the Quran say that nothing about man is perfect?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1098 - June 24, 2010, 11:18 AM
    Can God alter his nature Debunker?

    God is tied to Perfection.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1099 - June 24, 2010, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 24, 2010, 11:17 AM
    Does the Quran say that nothing about man is perfect?


    Sneaky! No it doesn't.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1100 - June 24, 2010, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 24, 2010, 11:18 AM
    Can God alter his nature Debunker?

    God is tied to Perfection.


    explain.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1101 - June 24, 2010, 11:20 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 24, 2010, 11:17 AM
    Does the Quran say that nothing about man is perfect?


    Again no. But I think anyone would agree with me that nothing about man is perfect.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1102 - June 24, 2010, 11:21 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:19 AM
    Sneaky! No it doesn't.

    Shot down by an ignoramus.  dance

    Try another starting premise.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1103 - June 24, 2010, 11:21 AM
    See my last post Smiley
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1104 - June 24, 2010, 11:24 AM
    I did. My post still stands. Teh innovation is haram, bro. Who are we to put words in Allah's mouth?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1105 - June 24, 2010, 11:25 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:19 AM
    explain.


    Why can't God choose to be less than Perfect?

    How can God change his nature and qualities? Does that make him a different God?

    If at point A. God is perfect and at point B. He decided to change his nature to less than perfect to show that he can alter his nature

    Then he should have seen this at point A

    But then God is trapped by time, he has to get to point B to change his nature.

    Or you can say God knows at point A that he was going to change at point B, but there can never be a point B, there can never be a moment where God didn't know something a priori

    So, if God is perfect this nature had to be there eternally and with no start, no creation, rather weird notion

    but if God is imperfect he can change his nature, never be perfect though, but that would also remove his omnipotence

    Bascially if he is perfect he is tied to it, he can't change his nature
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1106 - June 24, 2010, 11:27 AM
    @ Oz

    I didn't innovate anything.... It's a basic known fact to anyone... nothing about man is perfect. bunny
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1107 - June 24, 2010, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:15 AM
    Ok, let's try this: Nothing about man is perfect. Therefore, God cannot share the same form of man.

    It's exactly the same as above.
    Something perfect does not necessarily have to be composed of "parts" that, when taken singularly, are perfect themselves :S

    If God is the only thing that is perfect, it was already implied in the example above that nothing about man is perfect.

    Still no contradiction.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1108 - June 24, 2010, 11:29 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:27 AM
    @ Oz

    I didn't innovate anything.... It's a basic known fact to anyone... nothing about man is perfect. bunny

    How do you know that for certain? Isn't it just an assumption?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1109 - June 24, 2010, 11:30 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 24, 2010, 11:25 AM
    Why can't God choose to be less than Perfect?

    How can God change his nature and qualities? Does that make him a different God?

    If at point A. God is perfect and at point B. He decided to change his nature to less than perfect to show that he can alter his nature

    Then he should have seen this at point A

    But then God is trapped by time, he has to get to point B to change his nature.

    Or you can say God knows at point A that he was going to change at point B, but there can never be a point B, there can never be a moment where God didn't know something a priori

    So, if God is perfect this nature had to be there eternally and with no start, no creation, rather weird notion

    but if God is imperfect he can change his nature, never be perfect though, but that would also remove his omnipotence

    Bascially if he is perfect he is tied to it, he can't change his nature


    Looks to me like a repackaging of the old paradoxical question: Can God outdo Himself?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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