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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193262 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1110 - June 24, 2010, 11:30 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 24, 2010, 11:29 AM
    How do you know that for certain? Isn't it just an assumption?


    Don't you agree with my "assumption", Oz? Smiley
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1111 - June 24, 2010, 11:32 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:30 AM
    Looks to me like a repackaging of the old paradoxical question: Can God outdo Himself?


    Not only that. He can't even change his nature. He is fixed.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1112 - June 24, 2010, 11:35 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:30 AM
    Don't you agree with my "assumption", Oz? Smiley

    Whether I agree with your assumption or not has no bearing on its factuality. If you are going to assert that it is a fact, well-known or otherwise, then you will need some other basis for doing this. 

    You could start by rigorously defining perfection and explaining how nothing about man meets this standard. Please show your working. Kthnx. Smiley
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1113 - June 24, 2010, 11:36 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 11:27 AM
    It's exactly the same as above.
    Something perfect does not necessarily have to be composed of "parts" that, when taken singularly, are perfect themselves :S

    If God is the only thing that is perfect, it was already implied in the example above that nothing about man is perfect.

    Still no contradiction.


    You lost me again, Tlaloc.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1114 - June 24, 2010, 11:37 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 24, 2010, 11:32 AM
    Not only that. He can't even change his nature. He is fixed.

    It does not matter.

    Maybe God "cannot" change nature not because of lack of power, but because a change in the nature of God is a nonsensical request like asking "What is there south of the Antarctica?"

    So, in that sense, the argument you proposed is the same as "can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift" etcetera etcetera.

    It boils down to: can an omnipotent being do something paradoxical?
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1115 - June 24, 2010, 11:38 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 24, 2010, 11:35 AM
    Whether I agree with your assumption or not has no bearing on its factuality. If you are going to assert that it is a fact, well-known or otherwise, then you will need some other basis for doing this. 

    You could start by rigorously defining perfection and explaining how nothing about man meets this standard. Please show your working. Kthnx. Smiley


    I can never define perfection as I don't think that I can ever fathom perfection.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1116 - June 24, 2010, 11:40 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:36 AM
    You lost me again, Tlaloc.

    Oh, sorry.
    I was saying that what you implied is the same identical thing as what we said before.

    Let's imagine there is nothing perfect about man.
    Let's imagine God is the perfect being.
    It's still possible that the physical form of God is the same as the physical form of man.
    Because maybe it's not the physical form per se that makes God perfect, but it's the physical form (which in itself is not perfect) and whatever else God has.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1117 - June 24, 2010, 11:43 AM
    Oh, I see, but I happen to believe that everything about God is perfect, otherwise, He's no God.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1118 - June 24, 2010, 11:45 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:38 AM
    I can never define perfection as I don't think that I can ever fathom perfection.

    In that case you have no basis for asserting that nothing about man is perfect. QED. Smiley
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1119 - June 24, 2010, 11:49 AM
    @ Oz

    Ok, it is an assumption, I'll give you that, but it's one I'm sure the majority of people accept, and thus it's permissible in an argument.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1120 - June 24, 2010, 11:50 AM
    I'm Perfect.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1121 - June 24, 2010, 11:50 AM
    Hmm. If you are making an argument about absolutes then is argumentum ad populum sufficient?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1122 - June 24, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 11:43 AM
    Oh, I see, but I happen to believe that everything about God is perfect, otherwise, He's no God.

    Oh!
    So you think God is not just the perfect being, but "the being that is the sum of everything that is perfect"?
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1123 - June 24, 2010, 11:54 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Oh!
    So you think God is not just the perfect being, but "the being that is the sum of everything that is perfect"?

    Not necessarily. Spot the gap. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1124 - June 24, 2010, 11:59 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 24, 2010, 11:54 AM
    Not necessarily. Spot the gap. Wink

    Easy to spot:

    If everything about God is perfect, then the property of "having hands" is perfect.
    But man has hands too.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1125 - June 24, 2010, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
    i haven't been following the discussion closely but isn't our soul something we get directly from God?:

    "But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!''  (32:9)

    "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.''  (15:29)

    Have you been reading up on sufism now?  I guess it was bound to happen.  Now where's Tailor  whistling2
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1126 - June 24, 2010, 12:04 PM
    Also, another feature of God: free will.
    Man supposedly has it too.

    So, no, the theory that God is made of ALL and ONLY perfect characteristics does not stand, because it's always possible to find some in common between God and man
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1127 - June 24, 2010, 12:05 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 24, 2010, 11:18 AM
    Can God alter his nature Debunker?

    God is tied to Perfection.

    Good question.  Following on from this, can God make himself not omnipotent?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1128 - June 24, 2010, 12:06 PM
    I like the fact that this thread becomes interesting when the OP is not present ^_^
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1129 - June 24, 2010, 12:07 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 11:59 AM
    Easy to spot:

    If everything about God is perfect, then the property of "having hands" is perfect.
    But man has hands too.

    Well it isn't just that. Another possibility is that everything about god is perfect but god is not the sum of everything that is perfect.  
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1130 - June 24, 2010, 12:08 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 11:59 AM
    Easy to spot:

    If everything about God is perfect, then the property of "having hands" is perfect.
    But man has hands too.


    Not having hands might be viewed as a deficiency (I'm not sure if that's the case in the eyes of God). But not being powerful, knowledgeble, wise, etc, are all certainly deficiencies.

    Man can be powerful, knowledgeble, wise and with hands, but God's attributes (including His form) must be absolutely perfect.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1131 - June 24, 2010, 12:11 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 24, 2010, 12:07 PM
    Well it isn't just that. Another possibility is that everything about god is perfect but god is not the sum of everything that is perfect.  


    But he already closed the gap. He clearly asked: So you think God is not just the perfect being, but ALSO "the being that is the sum of everything that is perfect"?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1132 - June 24, 2010, 12:12 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 12:04 PM
    Also, another feature of God: free will.
    Man supposedly has it too.

    So, no, the theory that God is made of ALL and ONLY perfect characteristics does not stand, because it's always possible to find some in common between God and man

    Question: does god actually have free will or is he constrained by his "perfect" nature.

    However, if god does actually have free will and if god is also perfect then yes, you have a knockout point and something about man must be perfect.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1133 - June 24, 2010, 12:13 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 12:11 PM
    But he already closed the gap. He clearly asked: So you think God is not just the perfect being, but ALSO "the being that is the sum of everything that is perfect"?

    No he didn't close the gap. He asked a question about an unclosed gap.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1134 - June 24, 2010, 12:14 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 24, 2010, 12:08 PM
    Not having hands might be viewed as a deficiency (I'm not sure if that's the case in the eyes of God). But not being powerful, knowledgeble, wise, etc, are all certainly deficiencies.

    Man can be powerful, knowledgeble, wise and with hands, but God's attributes (including His form) must be absolutely perfect.

    Uhmmm, true.
    Because I used a characteristic where you can apply a degree of better/worse, so you are saying "yeah God is that but THE BEST".

    Still, you cannot apply such reasoning to concepts that are not quantifiable:
    Is the "free will" of God better/more_perfect or even any different than the "free will" of man?
    Or, what about immortality?
    Is God "more immortal" or "better immortal" than the human soul?
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1135 - June 24, 2010, 12:15 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 24, 2010, 12:12 PM
    Question: does god actually have free will or is he constrained by his "perfect" nature.

    However, if god does actually have free will and if god is also perfect then yes, you have a knockout point and something about man must be perfect.

    There is also immortality.
    Both God and the human soul are immortal/eternal/whatnot.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1136 - June 24, 2010, 12:16 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 24, 2010, 12:07 PM
    Well it isn't just that. Another possibility is that everything about god is perfect but god is not the sum of everything that is perfect.  


    +1
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1137 - June 24, 2010, 12:17 PM
    Hmm. I want to develop this further.

    Let's assume, just to keep Debunker happy, that this god character is perfect. How many ways are there for him to be perfect? Is there a perfect course for his creation? If there is then surely he must be constrained to follow it due to his perfect nature. If that is the case then does god have free will?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1138 - June 24, 2010, 12:18 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 12:15 PM
    There is also immortality.
    Both God and the human soul are immortal/eternal/whatnot.


    Human soul is immortal but I wouldn't say eternal. How can something that didn't exist at one point be defined as eternal? Can something be eternal from point B and onwards?

    Or were all the souls created eternal? Which means they have always existed? Grin
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1139 - June 24, 2010, 12:19 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 24, 2010, 12:15 PM
    There is also immortality.
    Both God and the human soul are immortal/eternal/whatnot.

    Another good point. So if free will and immortality of essence are characteristics of "imperfection" then god is imperfect. If they are not (because god is perfect) then humans have at least two perfect characteristics.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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