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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193125 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #270 - June 19, 2010, 10:09 AM

    @Debunker

    Actually I only posted those pictures because of the Slavery is NOT evil line. I don't care if its a muslim, jew or a fucking jedi that does the enslaving, it's evil. In and out of itself. Period. Seeing pictures of slave markets should surely disrupt you.

    I have tried to read all your posts regarding this but my question is where does it say DIRECTLY do not take slaves? Whether combatants or non-combatants. Where is this verse, that's what I'm searching for.

    +1 popcorn

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #271 - June 19, 2010, 10:11 AM

    I already discussed this with atheist.pk

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10789.msg287659#msg287659

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10789.msg287671#msg287671

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #272 - June 19, 2010, 10:15 AM

    Where?

    The question was this..

    Quote
    but my question is where does it say DIRECTLY do not take slaves? Whether combatants or non-combatants. Where is this verse, that's what I'm searching for.

     

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #273 - June 19, 2010, 10:20 AM

    I never denied that taking combatants as slaves was ineed sanctioned in Islam... what would you do to those warriors who survived the battle? kill them? or apply the UN regulations? what if the other side doesn't recognize these regulations (assuming they didn't laugh at it first).

    Anyway, I'm not saying slavery is not evil, it IS evil, so is conquest and even self-defense wars are evil.


    Habibi, azizi. Please, no more side-tracking. THIS vvv

    Quote
    but my question is where does it say DIRECTLY do not take slaves? Whether combatants or non-combatants. Where is this verse, that's what I'm searching for.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #274 - June 19, 2010, 10:23 AM

    and by the way, there is an amazingly clear lie in Muslim book.

    After the conquest of Mecca, (almost near the end of the prophet's life) in a battle with Taif, the story reports that Muslims were *reluctant* to sleeping with the women they captured after they *pillaged* the city, but then the prophet says it's OK, you can sleep with them.

    You read this Hadith, and think, yeah, that's in line with Islam. A believer in the prophethood of Muslim would think the same too. But if you think for a second, you'd wonder about the other  accounts, of *much earlier* battles, where Muslims were reported to sleep with captured slaves, as if it were the norm. So the question is, if it indeed were the norm then why in this battle, which was one of the last ones, Muslims, all of a sudden, weren't so sure if they could sleep with the women they kidnapped?

    It's as if someone, or in fact, a group of people, were fabricating all of these accounts and not keeping track of each others' lies.  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #275 - June 19, 2010, 10:27 AM

    and by the way, there is an amazingly clear lie in Muslim book.

    After the conquest of Mecca, (almost near the end of the prophet's life) in a battle with Taif, the story reports that Muslims were *reluctant* to sleeping with the women they captured after they *pillaged* the city, but then the prophet says it's OK, you can sleep with them.

    You read this Hadith, and think, yeah, that's in line with Islam. A believer in the prophethood of Muslim would think the same too. But if you think for a second, you'd wonder about the other  accounts, of *much earlier* battles, where Muslims were reported to sleep with captured slaves, as if it were the norm. So the question is, if it indeed were the norm then why in this battle, which was one of the last ones, Muslims, all of a sudden, weren't so sure if they could sleep with the women they kidnapped?

    It's as if someone, or in fact, a group of people, were fabricating all of these accounts and not keeping track of each others' lies. 


    Are you talking about the 'coitus interruptus' ones? They were probably always doing it with the captured slave 'booty.' This time they just wondered if how they were going about it was lawful.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #276 - June 19, 2010, 10:28 AM

    Habibi, azizi. Please, no more side-tracking. THIS vvv



    if there were a DIRECT order, then Hadiths/Siras allowing taking non-combatants would have had very little chance to survive.

    but hey, if Muslims, according to Quran, were ordered to recompensate the PAGAN husbands for the money they paid as dowry to their women who then escaped to Medina, then it only makes sense Muslims weren't allowed to rape the wives of of PAGAN husbands! It's only common sense!  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #277 - June 19, 2010, 10:31 AM

    @ zebedee

    FROM "SAHIH" MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3432
    Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran - 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to an end).


    If one is going to take this Hadith seriously, then this means this started very very late, after the conquest of Mecca, since the Battle of Hunayn was after the conquest of Mecca, YET we see other Hadiths/History accounts claiming that this started much much earlier...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #278 - June 19, 2010, 10:32 AM

    if there were a DIRECT order, then Hadiths/Siras allowing taking non-combatants would have had very little chance to survive.

    but hey, if Muslims, according to Quran, were ordered to recompensate the PAGAN husbands for the money they paid as dowry to their women who then escaped to Medina, then it only makes sense Muslims weren't allowed to rape the wives of of PAGAN husbands! It's only common sense!   


    Say it:

    "There is no verse that DIRECTLY says do not take slaves. Whether combatants or non-combatants."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #279 - June 19, 2010, 10:33 AM

    if there were a DIRECT order, then Hadiths/Siras allowing taking non-combatants would have had very little chance to survive.

    but hey, if Muslims, according to Quran, were ordered to recompensate the PAGAN husbands for the money they paid as dowry to their women who then escaped to Medina, then it only makes sense Muslims weren't allowed to rape the wives of of PAGAN husbands! It's only common sense!  

    Pagans from Makkah got this very vague exception because they were from the same city same tribe(s) as Muhajireen. Blood is thicker than water.

    No mention of the Jews of Medinah & Khaibar, the Christian Arabs, or the Pagans of the lesser Arab tribes that the Muslims conquered and enslaved.

     Roll Eyes

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #280 - June 19, 2010, 10:35 AM

    Quote
    Pagans from Makkah got this very vague exception because they were from the same city same tribe(s) as Muhajireen. Blood is thicker than water.

    No mention of the Jews of Medinah & Khaibar, the Christian Arabs, or the Pagans of the lesser Arab tribes that the Muslims conquered and enslaved.


    huh?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #281 - June 19, 2010, 10:37 AM

    Say it:

    "There is no verse that DIRECTLY says do not take slaves. Whether combatants or non-combatants."


    I already said it... but t's like having to say that 10 comes after 9, when it's obvious that it does.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #282 - June 19, 2010, 10:41 AM

    I already said it... but t's like having to say that 10 comes after 9, when it's obvious that it does.


    Say it:

    "There is no verse that DIRECTLY says do not take slaves. Whether combatants or non-combatants."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #283 - June 19, 2010, 10:42 AM

    @ zebedee

    FROM "SAHIH" MUSLIM, VOLUME 2, #3432
    Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran - 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to an end).


    If one is going to take this Hadith seriously, then this means this started very very late, after the conquest of Mecca, since the Battle of Hunayn was after the conquest of Mecca, YET we see other Hadiths/History accounts claiming that this started much much earlier...

    I think you have a slight problem here. That hadith is about a verse in the Quran, right? So you have the Quran itself saying it's halal to rape female war captives and keep them as slaves. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #284 - June 19, 2010, 10:44 AM

    huh?

    The whole paying compensations to pagan husbands of wives who fled to Madina to seek refuge and support from Muslims there was limited to those who fled from Makkah. As you mentioned a few pages back in this thread.

    These women were not slaves but refugees and were considered such because they fled Makkah. And that's where the buck stops because as I said, these women were from the same city and often the same tribe as the Muslims who did Hijrah so they were considered equals, and you forget that Makkah was still technically at war with Madina.

    Was the same 'compensation' done for the Jews of Madinah, Khyber, and other non-Muslim non-Qurayshi tribes? No.

    Tribalistic imperialism as I said. Slavery is evil and Islamic slavery is no different.

    Islam never forbids slavery. It turns a blind eye to it.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #285 - June 19, 2010, 10:48 AM

    @ Oz

    No... the verse only says you can sleep with your female slaves.... of course, Muslims had slaves before converting PLUS they were allowed to buy/sell slaves PLUS, according to one Sira account: women who came to the battlefield in Taziz* were also considered combatants. This is very ugly, of course, since releasing such women after the battle wouldn't have been a burden for Musims in future battles (unlike warrior men).

    * Taziz is a war strategy where the wives of the warring army are brought to the battle field as an incentive for their husbands to fight the enemy at their utmost ferocity, knowing that if they lose the battle, the enemy would take their women who are already present in the battlefield.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #286 - June 19, 2010, 10:55 AM

    Umm, dude, where, exactly, do you think female slaves come from? Do you think they volunteer?

    Also, do you think they had the right to refuse sex?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #287 - June 19, 2010, 10:57 AM

    I never denied that taking combatants as slaves was ineed sanctioned in Islam... what would you do to those warriors who survived the battle? kill them? or apply the UN regulations? what if the other side doesn't recognize these regulations (assuming they didn't laugh at it first).


    But the black Africans that the Muslims enslaved were not combatants were they ? They had not declared war against the Muslims, had they ?

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #288 - June 19, 2010, 11:05 AM

    Quote
    The whole paying compensations to pagan husbands of wives who fled to Madina to seek refuge and support from Muslims there was limited to those who fled from Makkah. As you mentioned a few pages back in this thread.

     

    if I remember correctly, and I will re-check, the verse did NOT specify Mecca, but I wouldn't think Muslims would have returned believing women fleeing other regions.

    Quote
    These women were not slaves but refugees and were considered such because they fled Makkah.


    My dear, they were NOT slaves but refugees because they converted and escaped to Medina, like the Muhajireen.

    But again, you're missing the point: The point is FUCK THEIR PAGAN *husbands*! Why pay the pagan husbands anything at all? Why not just stick out their tongues at them? if *supposedly* Muslims were allowed to rape the wives of pagans, then why be so courteous as to *PAY* the pagans any money at all?

    Quote
    And that's where the buck stops because as I said, these women were from the same city and often the same tribe as the Muslims who did Hijrah so they were considered equals, and you forget that Makkah was still technically at war with Madina.


    So you're saying the Muslims were nice enough as to *PAY* the pagan husbands the money they gave their wives because they were relatives?  

    Quote
    Was the same 'compensation' done for the Jews of Madinah, Khyber, and other non-Muslim non-Qurayshi tribes? No.


    the *details* of what happened to those are in Hadith/Sira... according to these sources, all of the Jewish tribes were exiled, except one: Qurayza, whose men/young boys were massacred and women and little ones enslaved. I of course don't believe that... I believe that only the conspirators of Qurayza were kille/captured an the rest were exiled with the other Jewish tribes.  

    Quote
    Tribalistic imperialism as I said. Slavery is evil and Islamic slavery is no different.

    remember, they were *PAYING* pagan men the money they lost on their wives... they didn't have to do that.

    Quote
    Islam never forbids slavery. It turns a blind eye to it.


    Actually it sanctions it (with recommendations at emancipation and such).. The issue here whether *non-combatants* were allowed to be enslaved or not. The Hadith/Sira accounts contradict... you can either look to the Pact of Umar as the real example of how Muslims done this or any other example... everyone is entitled to their biases.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #289 - June 19, 2010, 11:09 AM

    Umm, dude, where, exactly, do you think female slaves come from? Do you think they volunteer?

    Also, do you think they had the right to refuse sex?


    I already said they were allowed to buy/sell slaves PLUS, according to a Sira account, they were also allowed to enslave those women who came to the battlefield in Taziz (as explained above).

    As to their right to refusal sex, I'm not sure... I have no evidence either for or against... 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #290 - June 19, 2010, 11:10 AM

    But the black Africans that the Muslims enslaved were not combatants were they ? They had not declared war against the Muslims, had they ?


    dear, you need to follow the conversation from the beginning... fuck Muslims.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #291 - June 19, 2010, 11:11 AM

    If you (meaning you personally) are going to argue that Islam does not permit enslaving non-combatants then, given your distrust of hadith, you are going to have to come up with a verse from the Quran that basically says "Thou shalt not enslave non-combatants". I'm not aware of such a verse but maybe you are.

    Also, given that Allah should have known the customs of the time, presumably if Allah meant "Thou shalt not enslave non-combatants" then it could be said that he should have made this unequivocal. If he didn't then you can just as well argue he was quite happy with Muslims enslaving anyone.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #292 - June 19, 2010, 11:13 AM

    I already said they were allowed to buy/sell slaves PLUS, according to a Sira account, they were also allowed to enslave those women who came to the battlefield in Taziz (as explained above).

    Yes I know they were allowed to buy them and sell them. My question still stands: where do the slaves come from so you can buy them and sell them?

    Quote
    As to their right to refusal sex, I'm not sure... I have no evidence either for or against...

    But, if we're not trying to dodge logical conclusions we can figure this one put pretty easily, right? Do slaves have to obey their masters or not?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #293 - June 19, 2010, 11:14 AM

    Debunker I'm still waiting Smiley

    Say this:

    "There is no verse that DIRECTLY says do not take slaves. Whether combatants or non-combatants."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #294 - June 19, 2010, 11:19 AM

    No I just said that the Muslims treated Meccans (i.e. fellow Quraysh) a whole lot differently than they did with others non-Muslim non-Qurayshis. Tribal favouritism.

    But following your line, even that understanding is based on Sira/Hadith. The ambiguity of Sira/Hadith is something I will not disagree with because THAT is what defines, describes, and establishes Islam the way Quran and the limitations of the Quran could not do so. And since you and I and the rest of us here question the actual authenticity and factual content of these very Hadith and Siras...then all I can say is:

    Merrily, Allah is the Best of Planners & Schemers.  

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #295 - June 19, 2010, 11:23 AM

    Quote
    If you (meaning you personally) are going to argue that Islam does not permit enslaving non-combatants then, given your distrust of hadith, you are going to have to come up with a verse from the Quran that basically says "Thou shalt not enslave non-combatants". I'm not aware of such a verse but maybe you are.


    such a verse does NOT exist. Other verses, like paying Jizyah and Muslims recompensating pagan husbands only imply it.

    Again, imagine I am a pagan and my wife converted to Islam, ran to your city and wanted to marry you, then God say that you cannot marry my wife until you pay me the money I hgave her when I married her. Is this the same God that allows you to rape my wife, if she weren't a Muslim and you conqured my city?

    May be you'd say yes, but I don't see how that would be true.

    Besides, if you read the pact of Umar, which I choose to believe to be the true account that exemplifies the trueIslamic conquest, there's no mention of pillage and rape.

    Quote
    Also, given that Allah should have known the customs of the time, presumably if Allah meant "Thou shalt not enslave non-combatants" then it could be said that he should have made this unequivocal. If he didn't then you can just as well argue he was quite happy with Muslims enslaving anyone.


    There are many, many rulings that you won't find in either the Quran or the Hadith.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #296 - June 19, 2010, 11:24 AM

    Debunker I'm still waiting Smiley

    Say this:

    "There is no verse that DIRECTLY says do not take slaves. Whether combatants or non-combatants."


    NEVER! Smiley

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #297 - June 19, 2010, 11:27 AM

    Yes I know they were allowed to buy them and sell them. My question still stands: where do the slaves come from so you can buy them and sell them?


    I really don't know... besides, I alreay mentioned and explained another source: Taziz (which I find exceptionally disturbing)

    Quote
    But, if we're not trying to dodge logical conclusions we can figure this one put pretty easily, right? Do slaves have to obey their masters or not?


    true, and that's actually what i used to think too. But given that the slaves, in Islam, weren't completely deprived of all rights, like, for example, a slave had the right to work to free himself, then maybe, just maybe, slave women had the right to refuse sex.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #298 - June 19, 2010, 11:29 AM

    No I just said that the Muslims treated Meccans (i.e. fellow Quraysh) a whole lot differently than they did with others non-Muslim non-Qurayshis. Tribal favouritism.

    But following your line, even that understanding is based on Sira/Hadith. The ambiguity of Sira/Hadith is something I will not disagree with because THAT is what defines, describes, and establishes Islam the way Quran and the limitations of the Quran could not do so. And since you and I and the rest of us here question the actual authenticity and factual content of these very Hadith and Siras...then all I can say is:

    Merrily, Allah is the Best of Planners & Schemers.  (Clicky for piccy!)


    Dude, the *paying* pagans bit is in Quran.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #299 - June 19, 2010, 11:30 AM

    Good for them.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
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