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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193057 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #360 - June 21, 2010, 03:18 PM

    I said:  "The institution of slavery is NOT evil."
    Says the AFRICAN AMERICAN from the 21st century


    And that has to do with what again?  lol

    The way my people were treated in America during the transatlantic slave trade was an example of abuse inside the institution of slavery.  Other people had slaves and didn't treat folk like that.  In fact, the abuse was so strong that it came to define the slavery itself, while under Islam it was very different.  Look at this:

    Quote
    "The Mohammedan religion, disregarding all adventitious circumstances, seeks for the real man, neglects the accidental for the essential, the adventitious for the integral.  Hence it extinguishes all distinctions founded upon race, color, or nationality.  “I admonish you to fear God,” said Mohammed to his followers, “and yield obedience to my successor, although he may be a black slave.”  And, therefore, throughout the history of Islam, in all countries, race or “previous condition” has been no barrier to elevation.  Frequent are the instances in which proud Arabs have submitted to the rule of aliens, even if those aliens were Negro slaves.  Mr. Talboys Wheeler, in his History of India, speaks in the highest terms of Kutb-ud-din, the first of the “Slave Kings” in the Mohammedan dynasty in that country, and classes him among the four Sultans whom he thinks the only ones deserving of remembrance in the course of three centuries.  One of the most distinguished of the Mohammedan rulers of Egypt was Kafur, “a Negro of deep black color, with a smooth, shining skin,” who rose to be Governor of Egypt, from the position of a slave.  He had shown himself equally great as a soldier and a statesman.  His dominion extended not only over Egypt, but Syria also; and public prayers were offered up for him, as sovereign, from the pulpits of Mekka, Hijaz, Egypt and the cities of Syria, Damascus, Aleppo, Antioch, Tarsus, etc."  ~ Edward Wilmot Blyden; Christianity, Islam and the Negro Race (written in 1888, Blyden was a Christian missionary who studied Islam as a rival faith that he considered more successful than Christianity in its efforts to convert the African natives)  


    Let the record show that under American slavery, no slave would have EVER...

    ...ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER!!!!

    ...have worked his way up to President.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #361 - June 21, 2010, 03:22 PM

    Okey well...the correct answer is: SLAVERY IS WRONG.
    Regardless of how slaves are treated.

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #362 - June 21, 2010, 03:28 PM

    and the president of the United States, who received more than 50 percent of the vote,
    is ALSO African American.  whats your point?

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #363 - June 21, 2010, 03:29 PM

    As a Muslim, this is something I used to find solace in, if Islam is such a great religion then why are muslim where they are today?  Because muslims were bad people?


    Remember the religion was given to mankind to guide him.  If man does not take the instruction and use it to guide his life, but only says that he does, then how is that the fault of the religion?

    But do they really have different genes?


    You don't really think that peoples' DNA changes fundamentally once they convert, do you?  What an odd thing to say. 

    But you know what, I found this explanation too simple & almost too convenient to be true..  Deep down it never really washed with me, because I knew people were victims of the environment they grew up in.


    More importantly, people are the victims of what they choose to do in life.
     
    Why across the globe do we find cultural & environental differences between Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists & Hindus? I then began to look at their respective scriptures and I finally got the answers.


    lol
    There were cultural & environmental differences between the peoples already when the Sacred Scripture came to them.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #364 - June 21, 2010, 03:30 PM

    Okey well...the correct answer is: SLAVERY IS WRONG.
    Regardless of how slaves are treated.


    Okay I'll bite.  What are you basing that on exactly?  That "slavery is wrong."

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #365 - June 21, 2010, 03:32 PM

    "More importantly, people are the victims of what they choose to do in life."

    OH!! Now theres a choice in being a slave?   Huh?

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #366 - June 21, 2010, 03:36 PM

    Remember the religion was given to mankind to guide him.  If man does not take the instruction and use it to guide his life, but only says that he does, then how is that the fault of the religion?

    You don't really think that peoples' DNA changes fundamentally once they convert, do you?  What an odd thing to say. 

    More importantly, people are the victims of what they choose to do in life.
     
    lol
    There were cultural & environmental differences between the peoples already when the Sacred Scripture came to them.

    You completely missed the point of my post.  No worries anyway..

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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #367 - June 21, 2010, 03:39 PM

    Mrasheed has no problem telling us that we will burn in fucking hellfire because we're not muslims!


    CORRECTION:  And this is very important.  I do not think you will go to hell because you are not Muslim.  You will go to hell because you once believed, and then you rejected the belief.  This is called a Transgressor of Faith.  You will indeed go to hell if you die in that state.  My advice?  REPENT!  And believe in the Lord who created you once again.

    He a freakin grown man who thinks...


    All the prophets were "grown."  It is an adult issue.  Spread by adults.  Since the beginning.  Is there a committee of little kids somewhere who scribble out the ideologies of the world that you disagree with and distribute them worldwide?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #368 - June 21, 2010, 03:43 PM

    "More importantly, people are the victims of what they choose to do in life."

    OH!! Now theres a choice in being a slave?   Huh?



    You are nit-picking.  It is a neccessity in philosophical argument to speak in generalized terms in order to make a point.  Of course we don't have a choice in exactly what cards we are dealt with when we are born, but our actions can and do affect our lives, especially over the long term.  It serves nothing, and only wastes time, to nit-pick each other's arguments over little things.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #369 - June 21, 2010, 03:45 PM

    You completely missed the point of my post.


    I apologize.  I am still getting used to you all's argument styles (and you with mine) so if you will be kind enogh to reword what you meant, I'll try it again. Smiley

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #370 - June 21, 2010, 03:54 PM

    The guy was trolling anyways.

    I remember when I was Muslim I would visit high traffic message boards and post topics that were sure to get views with a big fucking banner advertising my stupid fucking comics. Roll Eyes



    LOL!!!

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #371 - June 21, 2010, 04:00 PM

    I said: Saying that "slavery sucks" is defending it?  Who knew?  lol

    No, saying that is not defending it. It was the other things you said that were a defense of slavery. Things like the following:

    The institution of slavery is NOT evil.

    An analogy is the Correctional Officer to Prisoner relationship.

    Slavery is an opportunity for both the slaver and the enslaved to rise to the occasion and determine the mettle of our faith in God.


    Slavery is NOT evil, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck.  Digging a ditch all day sucks crap, too, but that doesn't make it evil.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #372 - June 21, 2010, 04:05 PM

    I apologize.  I am still getting used to you all's argument styles (and you with mine) so if you will be kind enogh to reword what you meant, I'll try it again. Smiley

    No worries but dont think there's much point, no disrespect but we both work on different levels.  Judging by some of your answers here, your world is more cut & dry and simpler than I see it.

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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #373 - June 21, 2010, 04:12 PM

    Oh sure it was a bit of a pile on. He doesn't have to answer every question as quickly as it is asked though. If he wants to take time to consider a bunch of questions all he has to do is say so.


    No, I'm good.  Thanks though.

    I'm sure people would cut him some slack on that. It's only fair, given the number of people throwing questions at him.


    I'm having a ball, don't mind me.  Keep 'em comin'.  Smiley

    The thing is that he chose not to do this. Instead of considering all he basically did was preach.


    You don't consider your argument "preaching" just because you don't believe in God?  "Slavery is evil!! How dare you!  You're stupid because you don't think slavery is evil!!"  lol

    He didn't have to think about his answers because, in his eyes, he already knew he was right about everything.


    I don't think I'm right about everything.  Somethings I try and interpret through the Word of God and form my opinion accordingly.  I trust on your counterarguments to help me work out the kinks in my own argument about those types of things.  God is the one who is right about everything, so if He says something then I form my opinion around that.  He is the omniscient one after all.  I give Him the benfit of the doubt that He knows what He is talking about.

    Many of his answers are transparently flippant and flimsy and he is being called on them.


    Bring it on then. Cat fight

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #374 - June 21, 2010, 04:18 PM


    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #375 - June 21, 2010, 04:25 PM

    ...if you respond with a fuckin shitty snide ass remark like"it sucks to be a slave" to the allowance for Muslim men to rape slaves, then I have a problem with that. Its disrespectful as fuck.  Would you say that to someone's face if they were in that situation.


    No, I would not.  And if you were raped in a master/slave relationship, I apologize for my insensitivity.  But my point was that, because "slave" is  the lowest social position of a society, it obviously comes with job duties that are far less desirable than ones a king would enjoy.  I think a Muslim who is honestly trying to please Allah would seek after those things that are considered the "best possible meaning" in the Qur'an, so that when he comes across situations that... although allowed by God... he should refrain from doing because he strives to be the best Muslim he can possibly be.  

    He said slavery is not immoral (his grandfathers suffered you say and nothing evil about slavery-gotcha). Most Muslims would at least try to give you crap like it wasnt as bad as the Atlantic slave trade, but to come right out and say that slavery isn't immoral, I haven't heard that from a level-headed Muslim. Just trying to get a response on that.


    It is Allah who determines what is right and wrong, moral or immoral, lawful and unlawful.  He did not ban slavery outright, so I do not consider it immoral... but I do consider it something to claw your way out of as soon as possible.

    It does afterall, suck.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #376 - June 21, 2010, 04:32 PM

    If ever you get tired of being a cartoonist, you can be my slave.  Yours is just the right attitude I would like in a slave.


    Thanks, but I prefer freedom.  Good luck in your purchase though.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #377 - June 21, 2010, 04:40 PM

    On one hand society gives charity to alleviate the suffering of the poor but on the other hand that same society creates conditions that in turn create poverty.  One can use this argument not just against slavery but also against against Zakat  - if Quran (and hence Islam) was truly perfect Zakat would be unnecessary even as a concept.


    To me this reveals a lack of understanding in the reason why the Qur'an and Islam are even here.  The Book and the Faith are indeed perfect, it is man himself who is weak and possessed of a tendency to lean toward temptation and evil, thus needing the their guidance inorder to return to the Right Way.  Men are tested by both prosperity and hardship, causing the poor to always be among us, thus creating an opportunity for the righteous with means to do their duty under Zakat as well as perform charitable acts for "Paradise Points" in the hereafter.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #378 - June 21, 2010, 04:43 PM

    It is Allah who determines what is right and wrong, moral or immoral, lawful and unlawful.


    The Qur'an itself acknowledges that Allah does not define what is moral and immoral, just and unjust:

    [6:131]
    That is because thy Lord would never destroy the cities unjustly, while their inhabitants were heedless.


    If Allah did define what is moral and immoral, it wouldn't matter whether he destroyed the sinful inhabitants of the cities with or without warning them before hand.

    If Allah decides what is moral, then he has every right to destroy them without warning them, or to destroy them for not even doing anything in particular to deserve it. He can even, for the matter, demand that children be sacrificed to him, as there is no moral standard other than the one he sets.

    Do you see the inherent absurdity in this kind of morality?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #379 - June 21, 2010, 04:49 PM

    Why wont you say outright that Slavery is wrong  finmad And you are trying so hard to make you wife convert to your beliefs ?  

    Congrats on your new arrival by the ways.  Do you both intend to raise them as a muslim or a christian?  Surely you have both discussed this?

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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #380 - June 21, 2010, 04:57 PM

    Sex with slavegirls. That was another one that I always had a problem with and conveniently ignored in order to salvage the certainty which comes with belief in 'the book in which there is no doubt'.


    Why?  Being a slave sucks.  Who denied that?  

    The hadiths were always so ghastly. I remember this one:

    Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that the slave girls of Abdullah ibn Umar used to wash his feet and bring him a mat of palm leaves while they were menstruating. (Muwatta)

    I thought the Qur'an said that 'menstruation is a hurt' (2.222). But that didn’t stop this son-of-a-caliph from getting his 'hoes' to wash his stanky feet...


    The 'menustration is a hurt' line is in reference to actually causing their bodies harm when they have intercourse during it.  It doesn't mean that you can't touch them at all.  That sounds more like something the Talmud would say.


  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #381 - June 21, 2010, 05:02 PM

    Why wont you say outright that Slavery is wrong?


    Because I don't believe it is "wrong" merely a lowly and undesirable position for a person to be in.

    And you are trying so hard to make you wife convert to your beliefs ?  


    No, I said we had a couple arguments about it in the beginning, but we leave the topic alone and let Peace reign in the household.  We don't actively attempt to evangelize/convert each other.

    Congrats on your new arrival by the ways.


    Thank you!

    Do you both intend to raise them as a muslim or a christian?  Surely you have both discussed this?


    "Paradise lies at the foot of the mother."  I will discuss my own faith with the child when he/she is past the fundamental development stage and can think for him/herself.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #382 - June 21, 2010, 05:08 PM

    Because I don't believe it is "wrong" merely a lowly and undesirable position for a person to be in.


    are you serious?  Huh?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #383 - June 21, 2010, 05:16 PM

    I believe in killing the Kuffar. What right do I have to question what the Lord wants from me?

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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #384 - June 21, 2010, 05:23 PM


    "Paradise lies at the foot of the mother."  I will discuss my own faith with the child when he/she is past the fundamental development stage and can think for him/herself.


    Source for this hadith please Smiley
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #385 - June 21, 2010, 05:28 PM

    And one could cliam the insanity of many religions because of "cultural practices".


     Huh?

    This does not compute.

    MANY relgions do incomprehensible heinous crimes in the name of their "god(s)"  This does not change the fact, however, that my heart breaks into a million peices when inncoent women and children suffer from things done in the name of "god(s)"  


    To clarify, are you trying to say that "people who claim to be adherants of a religion do heinous things and claim that it was their religion" or are you actually meaning to say "the religion" did these things?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #386 - June 21, 2010, 05:29 PM

    are you serious?  Huh?


    Yes.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #387 - June 21, 2010, 05:32 PM

    The 'menustration is a hurt' line is in reference to actually causing their bodies harm when they have intercourse during it.  It doesn't mean that you can't touch them at all.  That sounds more like something the Talmud would say.


    No, that's what the Qur'an says.

    [2:222]
    They will question thee concerning the monthly course. Say: ’It is hurt; so go apart from women during the monthly course, and do not approach them till they are clean. When they have cleansed themselves, then come unto them as God has commanded you.’ Truly, God loves those who repent, and He loves those who cleanse themselves.

    As al- Jalalayn explain:

    They will ask you about the monthly period. Say: ‘It is an ailment, filth; so part with women, refrain from sexual intercourse with them, in the monthly period, in this time, or in the part affected; and do not approach them, for sexual intercourse, until they are pure, that is, until they have cleansed themselves after its cessation; when they have cleansed themselves, then come to them in sexual intercourse as God has commanded you’, by avoiding it, the female organ, during menstruation and not resorting to any other part. Truly, God loves those who repent and He loves those who cleanse themselves, from impurities.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #388 - June 21, 2010, 05:38 PM

    Source for this hadith please Smiley


    Hm.  It turns out it's not a hadith at all.  Just good common sense.  lol

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #389 - June 21, 2010, 05:39 PM

    http://lolkoran.blogspot.com/

    i follow this version of the quran. will god punish me?





    i hope not because its pretty much the same thing...  whistling2
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