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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193565 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #90 - June 17, 2010, 10:23 PM

    No such thing. Believing isn't a choice. It is something forced upon you by experience.


    We're talking about two separate concepts here, prince.  "Belief" in a terrestrial phenomena that you can detect easily using your five senses (experience), and belief in the Unseen.  The latter is the 'blind faith' belief of Faith that requires you to trust your Maker and SUBMIT to Him and accept the Game on His terms.

    Where did choice come into your decision to become a Muslim? When you were young and impressionable and naturally accepted what adults told you?


    When I was 19 and at the Crossroads of Legend, I had the choice to be a Muslim in name only and live a worldly life of guilt-free sin, or accept that God was who He said He was and live my life by that Truth.

    When you were researching  and was swayed by certain arguments, due to your own past experiences with logic and the world around you?


    No.  I felt I had nothing to lose by submitting to the One who made me and living how He wished me to.  I felt it couldn't hurt me in this life, and in the next life I would prosper.  So why not?

    Where? Where have I made the choice to disbelieve?


    When you decided to take on the title of "exMuslim."

    I want to believe there is a happily ever after, eternal life, beautiful women etc.


    Then do so.

    ...but I can't. I can't choose to believe, something has to  make me believe, and until that happens, I won't. I can't.


    Nothing is holding you back but you, my prince.  It is hard but that is why you must SUBMIT and believe in Him.  That's why it is called faith.   "Okay... this is CRAZY!  But I'm going to trust you, Lord!"

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #91 - June 17, 2010, 10:32 PM

    I know lots of people are asking you questions, but if you answer no other question of mine (and I asked my questions before many of those you have already replied to) please answer this.

    Explain how eternal torture is Justice?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #92 - June 17, 2010, 10:40 PM



    If that is what THEY choose.

    His Mercy is reserved for those who decide to believe and sincerely make the effort but fall short.  They is no mercy for the unrepentant rejecter of faith.



    So allah is not allknowing then right?  If he was allknowing he would know before hand and we would not really making free choices, which in turn would make him a right bastard.  But then if he is not allknowing he is imperfect..  Which one is it?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #93 - June 17, 2010, 10:46 PM

    Would you torture your child for eternity if they don't do what you say? If you answer no, you are more moral than the fictitious Arab desert god, "Allah".


    He is the Supreme Creator and He dictates the Rules for His creation.  I am only a human being of earth who is by no means omniscien.  He knows and I know not.  All I can see if from my limited perspective, while He sees ALL.  But, within my limited perspective if I tell my child that such-n-such will happen if he/she does such-n-such...

    ...I most certainly mean what I say.  If they decide to do such-n-such then their pain is on them.  Do you agree?  "Try me if you want to!"  lol

    BTW, you do know that Islam allows for slavery, right?


    yup.

    That Islamic slave trade was a large supplier of African slaves to Europeans?


    Define "large."

    That Islamic countries got rid of slavery the latest, and only under pressure from the west?


    Yup.


    That the Quran allows for slavery...


    With very specific rules and regulations for how they are to be treated.

    ...and for taking females as war booty?


    Technically you can take anybody as war booty.  That's often where their slaves came from.

    That Allah allows for slave rape? What are your feelings about that?


    It sucks to be a slave.  They should convert and ask to buy their freedom.   In Islam the institution of slavery was mostly an opportunity to show allah your righteousness.  Allah gave numerous examples as to how a Muslim could score "Paradise points" by freeing them.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #94 - June 17, 2010, 10:47 PM

    Why pray to God to improve our situation when it has already been decreed what will happen to us?  Is God going to change his plan?  If he changes his plan, then it wasn't fixed.

    (but answer Hassan's question first.  Sorry Hassan.)

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #95 - June 17, 2010, 10:49 PM

    So allah is not allknowing then right?  If he was allknowing he would know before hand and we would not really making free choices, which in turn would make him a right bastard.  But then if he is not allknowing he is imperfect..  Which one is it?


    Allah knows ALL and is truly Omniscient.  His knowing is separate from our Free Will and does not affect it.  No matter what we choose to do, He will still know.  He created the time stream afterall, and is not bound by it.  He sees all events (past, present, future) simultaneously.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #96 - June 17, 2010, 10:50 PM

    The latter is the 'blind faith' belief of Faith that requires you to trust your Maker and SUBMIT to Him and accept the Game on His terms.

    Thanks for being brutally honest.  You have blind faith, not us.  We are rational, and we follow the strongest evidence.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #97 - June 17, 2010, 10:54 PM

    It sucks to be a slave.  They should convert and ask to buy their freedom.   In Islam the institution of slavery was mostly an opportunity to show allah your righteousness.  Allah gave numerous examples as to how a Muslim could score "Paradise points" by freeing them.

    You know the prophet had a black slave called Bilal, right?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #98 - June 17, 2010, 10:57 PM

    In Islam the institution of slavery was mostly an opportunity to show allah your righteousness.  Allah gave numerous examples as to how a Muslim could score "Paradise points" by freeing them.



    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #99 - June 17, 2010, 10:58 PM

    Allah knows ALL and is truly Omniscient.  His knowing is separate from our Free Will and does not affect it.  No matter what we choose to do, He will still know.  He created the time stream afterall, and is not bound by it.  He sees all events (past, present, future) simultaneously.


    How is it separate from our free will?  If he knows all then he knows what we are going to do way before we are even born...  So in reality I am merely an actor following a script as I have a destiny I am unwittingly fulfilling.  And therefore there is no free will there.

    So why does he let people come into the world when they are destined to eternal torture in advance?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #100 - June 17, 2010, 11:04 PM

    We're talking about two separate concepts here, prince.  "Belief" in a terrestrial phenomena that you can detect easily using your five senses (experience), and belief in the Unseen.


    No I wasn't. The tree being felled by the explosion was something you did not witness. It was something you did not believe in because the evidence/argument wasn't strong enough. But had he made a better job of explaining to you how and why he was right, you may well have believed. Had you been brought up your whole life thinking every explosion causes a tree to fall down, you would have believed. Experience is all that can cause belief.

    Had you been brought up in a place where everyone, from a young age, told you there was an invisible flying spaghetti monster, you would have believed that, though you didn't witness it. That belief is also due to experience, in this case the experience of being told it was true. Now suppose you travel to a land where they do not believe this, where you are exposed to logical arguments and reasoning that make you lose belief in the flying spaghetti monster, would that have been a choice? The strength of the arguments have no bearing on whether the FSM actually exists, just on whether you BELIEVE it does. So Allah may exist, but with everything that has happened to me, with everything I've witnessed, with everything I've read, with everything I've ever though, I do not believe he does. I cannot over-rule that out of 'free will', something must happen, some experience, some argument, some form of reasoning, must make me believe that he does.

    Quote
    The latter is the 'blind faith' belief of Faith that requires you to trust your Maker and SUBMIT to Him and accept the Game on His terms.


    No, submitting to his will has nothing to do with the problem at hand. I can do that out of 'choice', but I still wouldn't believe in him. I can act as if the chair I'm sitting on doesn't exist. I can act as if there is a big juju in the sky. But I still won't believe either of those things. And without belief I am, apparently, doomed.

    Quote
    When I was 19 and at the Crossroads of Legend, I had the choice to be a Muslim in name only and live a worldly life of guilt-free sin, or accept that God was who He said He was and live my life by that Truth.

    No.  I felt I had nothing to lose by submitting to the One who made me and living how He wished me to.  I felt it couldn't hurt me in this life, and in the next life I would prosper.  So why not?


    You are still not getting it. Submitting to his will is irrelevant. I do not care when you chose to be a good Muslim, I want to know when you decided to believe that Allah exists.

    Quote
    When you decided to take on the title of "exMuslim."


    If it's about a title I will lose it. So does this save me from hell?

    Quote
    Then do so.


    Okay. Wait, I can't. Because nobody can choose what they believe. They can choose how they act, what they do, to go in search of the truth, but no one can choose to believe something. This is the nature of belief. You either do or you don't. It is beyond choice.

    Quote
    Nothing is holding you back but you, my prince.  It is hard but that is why you must SUBMIT and believe in Him.  That's why it is called faith.   "Okay... this is CRAZY!  But I'm going to trust you, Lord!"


    Again, all this, trusting, submitting, it's all irrelevant. It comes AFTER belief. I can't make it any simpler. Nobody can choose to believe Allah exists, they can act with the assumption that he does, but whether they actually BELIEVE he does, they cannot choose.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #101 - June 17, 2010, 11:05 PM

    Can you choose to believe something you find unbelievable and unconvincing?


    Sure.  It is hard and you'll go up and down about it often, but it is all about trust.   "Even though you cheated on me, I'm going to believe you still love me."  Get it?

    Can you choose to believe Jesus is the son of God?


    I could... and be flung headfirst into the Pit for my pains.  lol

    Can you choose to believe Vishnu created the world?


    Sure I can.  Nothing hampers BELIEF.  

    Can you choose to believe fairies live at the bottom of your garden?


    Yup.  And fully live my life as if they are based on belief and trust.  Belief and trust have nothing (or very little) to do with reason and logic.

    Is it justice to torture someone eternally for being unable to believe in a God who refuses to provide irrefutable evidence of his own existence - let alone which competing book and claim about him is really true?


    The nature of the punishment is not the justice part.  The justice part is where He said," These are the rules:  Do what I say and get everlasting pleasure.  Disobey and get everlasting torment."  When you choose to disobey and get the everlasting torment that He promised...

    JUSTICE HAS BEEN SERVED!  

    And you can't say that you didn't know.  If you chose not to believe, that was on YOU.  That happened to be part of the rules.  "Believe in ME."  If you let your own fickle fleshy nature keep you from your reward, or allow yourself to be swayed by your wild didbelieving friends... you STILL knew what the rules were up front.  So yes, indeed, Justice was served.  And you would have no one to blame but yourself.

    btw had your parents not converted and instead become devout Buddhists or Hindus - and you now spent your time offering milk to Ganesha - would you be going to Hell?


    Yup.

    Is the accident of birth a good basis to decide who deserves eternal torture?


    lol

    God will make sure that every soul had the chance to choose between Truth and falsehood.  Are you not an "ex"Muslim?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #102 - June 17, 2010, 11:06 PM

    So why does he let people come into the world when they are destined to eternal torture in advance?

    this seems to be the main question for this entire thread,  
    +1

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #103 - June 17, 2010, 11:10 PM

    You know the prophet had a black slave called Bilal, right?


    Hm.  I may not know the reason that caused you all to become exMuslims, but in your case it seems rather obvious.  lol j/k

    Bilal was the slave of some arsehole pagan dude that started torturing Bilal when he found out the man had converted to Islam.  When Abu Bakr saw Bilal being tortured one day, he paid the pagan dude for his freedom and Bilal was free ever since.  FYI.  Please don't go around telling people that Bilal was Muhammad's slave.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #104 - June 17, 2010, 11:14 PM

    God will make sure that every soul had the chance to choose between Truth and falsehood.  Are you not an "ex"Muslim?


    How did he have a chance?  God is allknowing according to you, so he would have known what this man was going to do before his greatgrandfather was born with that reasoning...  How did Hassan have the chance to choose if God knew already what the choice was going to be?  Doesn't make sense...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #105 - June 17, 2010, 11:18 PM

    Again, all this, trusting, submitting, it's all irrelevant. It comes AFTER belief. I can't make it any simpler. Nobody can choose to believe Allah exists, they can act with the assumption that he does, but whether they actually BELIEVE he does, they cannot choose.


    It is normal to experience doubt, Prince.  Just don't let that doubt affect how you live your life.  Do as He says to do, and that will be the proof enough that you believed.  At least enough to get into paradise.  In the Scriptures He says that if you take steps towards Him, He will take steps towards you.  Go through the motions and give Him the benefit of the doubt... even though you feel the strong sense of doubt... and He very well may help you strengthen the belief in your heart.

    Just trust Him and give Him the benfit of the doubt that He IS real and His Word IS true, and let Him do the rest.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #106 - June 17, 2010, 11:20 PM

    How did Hassan have the chance to choose if God knew already what the choice was going to be? 


    God is separate from the time stream and can see along its entire length simultaneously.  No matter what you decide to do in the future, God will see you doing it "NOW" because He sees all things and events "NOW."  This doesn't not affect your Free Will.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #107 - June 17, 2010, 11:22 PM

    What discussions did you find interesting?


    This was pretty much what I was talking about, although I didn't expect to have all these juicy topics ALL AT ONCE! and in my intro thread.  lol

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #108 - June 17, 2010, 11:27 PM

    Quote
    He is truly Omnipotent.

    Can he make a rock so large he can't move it? Can he forget stuff if he wants to?
    Quote
    With very specific rules and regulations for how [slaves] are to be treated.

    Indeed - for example there are very specific rules about how to have sex with your female slaves and specific rules about the fact that they cannot refuse. (In my country we call that raping a slave).
    Quote
    Fortunately the Qur'an is still A-Okay

    Which version of the Qur'an is still a-okay? I like the Hafs version... sometimes I prefer the Warsh one though.

    Why do you not acknowledge the prophets Baha'ullah or Joseph Smith?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #109 - June 17, 2010, 11:28 PM

    The nature of the punishment is not the justice part.  The justice part is where He said," These are the rules:  Do what I say and get everlasting pleasure.  Disobey and get everlasting torment."  When you choose to disobey and get the everlasting torment that He promised...

    JUSTICE HAS BEEN SERVED!  

    And you can't say that you didn't know.  If you chose not to believe, that was on YOU.  That happened to be part of the rules.  "Believe in ME."  If you let your own fickle fleshy nature keep you from your reward, or allow yourself to be swayed by your wild didbelieving friends... you STILL knew what the rules were up front.  So yes, indeed, Justice was served.  And you would have no one to blame but yourself.


    Ok, but is this merciful?

    Is it merciful to punish someone for enternity no matter what they did?

    Is it merciful to create a human knowing that human will end up in the hellfire?

    I don't think anyone in this thread would want to torture a human being for eternity regardless of what they have done.

    I certainly don't think they would want to create a human who was destined to be tortured for eternity.

    U mad that we are all more merciful than YOUR God who call himself "the Most Merciful?"


    Hm.  I may not know the reason that caused you all to become exMuslims, but in your case it seems rather obvious.  lol j/k

    Bilal was the slave of some arsehole pagan dude that started torturing Bilal when he found out the man had converted to Islam.  When Abu Bakr saw Bilal being tortured one day, he paid the pagan dude for his freedom and Bilal was free ever since.  FYI.  Please don't go around telling people that Bilal was Muhammad's slave.


    I think Islame was just confused. Muhammad did own a black slave his name was Zaid ibn haritha. Although he later adopted him.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #110 - June 17, 2010, 11:28 PM

    Thanks for being brutally honest.  You have blind faith, not us.  We are rational, and we follow the strongest evidence.


    I'm asking you to use blind faith to accept Allah for what He claims to be so you may be saved.  Rationale is not the only way humans interact with reality.  We need faith too. If the Wright Brothers, and others like them, didn't have faith that humans COULD fly, would we have manned flight today?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #111 - June 17, 2010, 11:31 PM

    God is separate from the time stream and can see along its entire length simultaneously.  No matter what you decide to do in the future, God will see you doing it "NOW" because He sees all things and events "NOW."  This doesn't not affect your Free Will.


    So in reality we still don't have freewill because if we did the passage line we would take would be unpredictable.  It is not a question of seeing a time stream.  The time stream anology involves the person going to series of events from A to Z, everything is determined. The actions we do in the stages don't change, so my argument still holds.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #112 - June 17, 2010, 11:32 PM

    God is separate from the time stream and can see along its entire length simultaneously.  No matter what you decide to do in the future, God will see you doing it "NOW" because He sees all things and events "NOW."  This doesn't not affect your Free Will.

    Ah yes - but you haven't quite understood the level of sophistication of the original philosophical arguments about this in Europe. Where an omnipotent god subjects himself to time (which as an omnipotent god he can do of course) is he still able to see the future of free will?  There is a distinction between seeing the future and knowing it. Your god is either omniscient or there is no free will.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #113 - June 17, 2010, 11:33 PM

    I'm asking you to use blind faith to accept Allah for what He claims to be so you may be saved.  Rationale is not the only way humans interact with reality.  We need faith too. If the Wright Brothers, and others like them, didn't have faith that humans COULD fly, would we have manned flight today?


    No that was a dream and an ambition not faith.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #114 - June 17, 2010, 11:34 PM

    Can he make a rock so large he can't move it?


    Reality Altering is not my department.  You'll have to ask Him that.  Wink

    Can he forget stuff if he wants to?


    He said that if you truly repent of sin He would toss it into the Sea of Forgettfulness and bring it up no more.  That would be a "yes."

    Indeed - for example there are very specific rules about how to have sex with your female slaves and specific rules about the fact that they cannot refuse. (In my country we call that raping a slave).


    Slavery sucks, dude.  truly.  Even under Islam.  That's one of the reasons you win so many "Paradise Points" for freeing them.

    Which version of the Qur'an is still a-okay? I like the Hafs version... sometimes I prefer the Warsh one though.


    You are implying that the content is radically different.  Tread carefully.

    Why do you not acknowledge the prophets Baha'ullah or Joseph Smith?


    Primarily because I cherish my spot in heaven.  lol

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #115 - June 17, 2010, 11:36 PM

    No that was a dream and an ambition not faith.


    And I do not have a "dream and an ambition" to acquire paradise?  Faith is faith, ras111.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #116 - June 17, 2010, 11:39 PM

    Well if slavery sucked, why did he not set out rules forbidding it?  Cyrus the Great outlawed it.  Muhammad had no problems with selling the women of his enemies as slaves.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #117 - June 17, 2010, 11:39 PM

    and then there was Safiyya Bint Huyayy
    1) A Jewess
    2) BOUGHT by Mohammad after hearing how drop dead gorgeous she was, but gave her sister
    away cuz she wasnt good looking enough
    3) Forced her into marriage the SAME DAY after slaughtering her father; torturing, then beheading her husband
    4) She was on her mensus on the "wedding" night.  Guess momo couldnt wait, cuz he
    got her the very next day.  Isnt there a "cleansing period" AFTER mensus before procreation can
    be done...did... do it... BAH!

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #118 - June 17, 2010, 11:42 PM

    Quote
    He said that if you truly repent of sin He would toss it into the Sea of Forgettfulness and bring it up no more.  That would be a "yes."

    So not entirely omniscient then - your omnipotent, almost - but not quite - omniscient god.
    A bit like the way he didn't know where the Banu Nadir kept their treasure, so Muhammad had to torture Kinana Ibn al-Rabi to find it.  (and never found it in the end).  


    Quote
    You are implying that the content is radically different.  Tread carefully.

    Well there are significant variations of the Qur'an - I'm sure you agree-the current research being done in Germany on scrolls discovered in Yemen is interesting for example - as they precede Uthman's modifications.
    But as I said - do you have a preferred version of the Qur'an - or are you happy with all of them.  Even the ones which aren't very common.  
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #119 - June 17, 2010, 11:42 PM

    And I do not have a "dream and an ambition" to acquire paradise?  Faith is faith, ras111.


    No in that case you have faith in yourself that you will or in other words you are confident that you will...  And this opens up another issue I have... Your morality seems to be based on reward and fear of punishment, which is rather infantile in my opinion.  A truly moral person would not do things just to get a reward but because he believes them to be the right thing to do or according to his principles, in my opinion.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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