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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193465 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #120 - June 17, 2010, 11:42 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 11:28 PM
    I'm asking you to use blind faith to accept Allah for what He claims to be so you may be saved.  Rationale is not the only way humans interact with reality.  We need faith too. If the Wright Brothers, and others like them, didn't have faith that humans COULD fly, would we have manned flight today?

    There have been several thousand religions/cults/tribes throughout human history, each with their own absurd beliefs/superstitions.  Why do you have blind faith in YOUR set of beliefs and reject all others?  You've already admitted that you are not rational, so why believe in Islam's God and not the invisible pink unicorn, for example?

    And by the way,  the Wright brothers used science and engineering not religion to build their plane.  So they were following the scientific method not the religious, dogmatic, sacred text, method.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #121 - June 17, 2010, 11:43 PM
    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:32 PM
    Ah yes - but you haven't quite understood the level of sophistication of the original philosophical arguments about this in Europe.


    *Snort!*   Should I believe Allah, or the "sophisticated" agnostics of old Europe?  

    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:32 PM
    Where an omnipotent god subjects himself to time...


    That's my point.  He does NOT "subject Himself" to it.  God is separate from the Time Stream.  He created it afterall.  Why would He be limited to it?  To anything other than what He limits Himself to?

    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:32 PM
    ...is he still able to see the future of free will?


    Why not?

    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:32 PM
    There is a distinction between seeing the future and knowing it.


    True.  In this case, God does both.  He sees what you are doing in the future "NOW" no matter what you decide, and thereby He knows.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #122 - June 17, 2010, 11:44 PM
    Nice cartoons btw.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #123 - June 17, 2010, 11:44 PM
    Quote from: Dreamer on June 17, 2010, 11:39 PM
    and then there was Safiyya Bint Huyayy

    I particularly love the hadith and Sirat which refer to the fact that the other wives of Muhammad waited for 3 days to see if Safiya would wear a veil on coming out of the tent (once Muhammad was sated).  Only then would they know if she was a new wife or a slave.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #124 - June 17, 2010, 11:48 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 11:43 PM
    *Snort!*   Should I believe Allah, or the "sophisticated" agnostics of old Europe?  

    They were religious - their debate was on the existence of free will.  Free will and omniscience is incompatible. You do not need to "believe" the "sophisticated" agnostics. You merely must check their logic - it would appear that you are not capable of this.  

    Quote
    True.  In this case, God does both.  He sees what you are doing in the future "NOW" no matter what you decide, and thereby He knows.

    He either sees or he knows. You say he knows through seeing.  That means he does not know unless he sees.  In which case he is not omniscient.  QED. Maybe you should read some of the sophisticated agnostics of Europe.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #125 - June 17, 2010, 11:49 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on June 17, 2010, 11:39 PM
    Well if slavery sucked, why did he not set out rules forbidding it?


    There are many jobs and social positions in life that suck.  Heck life in general can suck.  But remember we are tested by both adversity and prosperity in tunrs to determine the strength of our faith.  Slavery is an opportunity for both the slaver and the enslaved to rise to the occasion and determine the mettle of our faith in God.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #126 - June 17, 2010, 11:50 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 11:43 PM
    *Snort!*   Should I believe Allah, or the "sophisticated" agnostics of old Europe?


    Somehow the sophisticated agnostics of Old Europe was what turned Europe into a center of enlightenment and learning.  Their teachings have born great fruit, given rise to great inventions and progress.  Allah on the other hand seems to have severe communication problems and poor planning skills.  He delivers his message (through a third person) to a supposedly illiterate man, in a language that is quite vague, and multiple times of trying with other people *(or so the Muslims insist) and it end up with with everyone having their own interpretation of this clear, divine message and killing each other over it, before Muhammad died.  I'd believe the agnostics if I were you.
     
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 11:43 PM
    That's my point.  He does NOT "subject Himself" to it.  God is separate from the Time Stream.  He created it afterall.  Why would He be limited to it?  To anything other than what He limits Himself to?


    No one said he necessarily subjected himself to it, viewing it from afar would still mean that the actions are predetermined and that there is no freewill

    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 11:43 PM

    True.  In this case, God does both.  He sees what you are doing in the future "NOW" no matter what you decide, and thereby He knows.


    So my future is decided already and there is no freewill, so why does he knowingly create sinners?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #127 - June 17, 2010, 11:51 PM
    Quote
    That's my point.  He does NOT "subject Himself" to it.  God is separate from the Time Stream.  He created it afterall.  Why would He be limited to it?  To anything other than what He limits Himself to?

    And my point is that either he can subject himself to the time stream or he cannot.
    If he cannot he is not omniPOTENT.  If he can, then either he knows or he does not know.  If he knows then there is no free will. Your attempt at escaping logic does not stand.

    EDIT: oops wrong omni word...
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #128 - June 17, 2010, 11:51 PM
    Hupla... i guess its my turn to "SNORT!"  lolol
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #129 - June 17, 2010, 11:52 PM
    I would again ask why you refuse to follow the prophets Baha'ullah or Joseph Smith?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #130 - June 17, 2010, 11:53 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 11:49 PM
    There are many jobs and social positions in life that suck.  Heck life in general can suck.  But remeber we are tested by both adversity and prosperity in tunrs to determine the strength of our faith.  Slavery is an opportunity for both the slaver and the enslaved to rise to the occasion and determine the mettle of our faith in God.


    How?  By waging war against the infidel and enslaving people?  Why not do away with it completely and not take slaves?   A person who does not take slaves is far more moral than the one who does..  Cyrus the Great outlawed slavery in his empire, before Muhammad was born...  Muhammad definitely had no problem with capturing slaves.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #131 - June 17, 2010, 11:57 PM
    But Ras!!! Big Al told him it was okay!!!  The Quran SAYS SO!
    Just like the adopted son thing, suddenly, it was okay to marry
    his adopted son's wife?  Big Al suddenly said that was okay, too.
    Wow.. to be talked to by angels! what a dream!
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #132 - June 17, 2010, 11:59 PM
    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:48 PM
    They were religious - their debate was on the existence of free will.  Free will and omniscience is incompatible. You do not need to "believe" the "sophisticated" agnostics. You merely must check their logic - it would appear that you are not capable of this.  


    Ah, but I am capable of understanding that and All-Powerful Supreme Being is separate from His creation and is thus, not limited by it.  It is the limited understanding of mere men (European or not) who are confused by the issue.

    Not me.   Wink

    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:48 PM
    He either sees or he knows. You say he knows through seeing.


    That is my attempted speculation into the nature of the Unknowable.  Similar to the speculation of your precious old europeans.  Either way, it is God who knows and we who know not.  But it is fun to speculate.  It's only a danger when someone (kinda like our friend hupla) attempt to pass off the speculation as Fact.

    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:48 PM
    That means he does not know unless he sees.


    Does it?  Or does it mean instead that's only what it appears to ones such as us, who happen not to be omniscient?

    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:48 PM
    In which case he is not omniscient.  QED. Maybe you should read some of the sophisticated agnostics of Europe.


    Considering their foolishness led them to the idea that God is not All-Knowing why would I do that?  So I can court hell for your amusment?

    btw what does QED mean?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #133 - June 18, 2010, 12:00 AM
    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:52 PM
    I would again ask why you refuse to follow the prophets Baha'ullah or Joseph Smith?


    And I will remind you that I cherish my spot in paradise. 
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #134 - June 18, 2010, 12:04 AM
    Quote from: hupla on June 17, 2010, 11:51 PM
    And my point is that either he can subject himself to the time stream or he cannot.


    Why should He exactly?  So He can come down to earth as a man or something?  Why would He need to take on the limitations of created beings and subject Himself to the time stream?  Why is it so important to you that He is limited to creation laws?  Your whole point hinges on that, but why?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #135 - June 18, 2010, 12:13 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:00 AM
    And I will remind you that I cherish my spot in paradise. 

    But how do you know that Islam is the true religion?  And not any of the thousands of other religions/cults/tribes?
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #136 - June 18, 2010, 12:16 AM
    Quote from: ateapotist on June 17, 2010, 11:42 PM
    Why do you have blind faith in YOUR set of beliefs and reject all others?


    I believe in the Message "Believe in the One God, do good, reject evil."  Eventually mankind corrupted the message as it came before.  You can even see the evidence of this in the ancient origins of religions.  I don't have the issues with the Qur'an that you all have; it makes perfect sense to me.  I choose to believe it and accept it as the Truth.

    Quote from: ateapotist link=topic=10789.msg287459#msg287u459 date=1276818161
    You've already admitted that you are not rational...


    I said there is more to our lives here than just "rationale."  It is only one tool.

    Quote from: ateapotist on June 17, 2010, 11:42 PM
    so why believe in Islam's God and not the invisible pink unicorn, for example?


    lol
    Because the Invisible Pink Unicorn possesses all the earmarks of a pagan deity and is both my enemy and my Lord's.  

    Quote from: ateapotist on June 17, 2010, 11:42 PM
    And by the way,  the Wright brothers used science and engineering not religion to build their plane.  So they were following the scientific method not the religious, dogmatic, sacred text, method.


    Careful...

    I said they used their faith in the concept of human flight to get them to the point where they COULD use science and engineering to make the machine.  Without that faith, could they even have gotten started on the work?  
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #137 - June 18, 2010, 12:19 AM
    Quote from: ateapotist on June 18, 2010, 12:13 AM
    But how do you know that Islam is the true religion?


    "This is your religion perfected for you."  Remember that?  In the Final Revelation in the canon of Sacred Scripture?  I just chose to believe, ateapotist.  That's all.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #138 - June 18, 2010, 12:20 AM
    Welcome Rasheed, I will the debate about Islam to the other 700 members here  Wink

    But I would like to know about your drawing techniques. They look alive and beautiful. Do you use Photoshop? Or do you paint with brushes and colors? I am a fan already Afro
    ...
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #139 - June 18, 2010, 12:21 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:04 AM
    Why should He exactly?  So He can come down to earth as a man or something?  Why would He need to take on the limitations of created beings and subject Himself to the time stream?  Why is it so important to you that He is limited to creation laws?  Your whole point hinges on that, but why?

    The point is not whether he should or should not. The point is whether he can or cannot. You understand that if he cannot he is not omnipotent - by definition.  It is so important because it establishes that your god is either not omnipotent, not omniscient (though you have already confirmed that this is the case earlier when talking about his forgetfulness) or that free will does not exist.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #140 - June 18, 2010, 12:21 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on June 17, 2010, 11:53 PM
    How?  By waging war against the infidel and enslaving people?  Why not do away with it completely and not take slaves?


    A believing, obedient Muslim doesn't "wage war" he acts only in defense when attacked.  So commands Allah.  And if you do away with slavery, it removes an opportunity to do good.  
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #141 - June 18, 2010, 12:24 AM
    Quote from: RIBS on June 18, 2010, 12:20 AM
    Welcome Rasheed


    Thanks!  I'm glad to be here.  I'm having a ball already.  lol

    Quote from: RIBS on June 18, 2010, 12:20 AM
    I will [leave] the debate about Islam to the other 700 members here  Wink


    lol

    Quote from: RIBS on June 18, 2010, 12:20 AM
    But I would like to know about your drawing techniques. They look alive and beautiful. Do you use Photoshop? Or do you paint with brushes and colors? I am a fan already Afro


    Thank you.  For my digital art, I do use Photoshop/Illustrator.  I use acrylic inks to color my other work that I rarely post online.  I think there is a Remo & Chiun poster on my blog somewhere.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #142 - June 18, 2010, 12:26 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:16 AM
    I believe in the Message "Believe in the One God, do good, reject evil."  Eventually mankind corrupted the message as it came before.  You can even see the evidence of this in the ancient origins of religions.  I don't have the issues with the Qur'an that you all have; it makes perfect sense to me.  I choose to believe it and accept it as the Truth.


    And you think Islam doesn't have ancient origins.. ? Even Allah was the name of a pagan god


    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:16 AM
    I said they used their faith in the concept of human flight to get them to the point where they COULD use science and engineering to make the machine.  Without that faith, could they even have gotten started on the work?  


    With the difference that they had faith in themselves..  They did not pray to god in the hope that he would give them the wings or a divine inspiration.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #143 - June 18, 2010, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:21 AM
    A believing, obedient Muslim doesn't "wage war" he acts only in defense when attacked.  So commands Allah.  And if you do away with slavery, it removes an opportunity to do good.  


     Jihaad against the kuffaar with weapons is of two types: jihad talab (offensive jihad) and jihad daf’ (defensive jihad).

    Jihad talab means attacking the kuffaar in their own lands until they become Muslim or pay the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah. If they do that, then they have protected their blood and their wealth from me, except in cases decreed by Islamic law, and their reckoning with be with Allaah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 25; Muslim, 20.

    http://islamqa.com/en/ref/26125/

    inb4 you don't respond
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #144 - June 18, 2010, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:16 AM
    Because the Invisible Pink Unicorn possesses all the earmarks of a pagan deity and is both my enemy and my Lord's.  

    So does your fictitious, desert God that the pagan arabs called 'Allah'.
    QED   (which, btw, is an acronym of the Latin phrase quod erat demonstrandum, which means "that which was to be demonstrated".  Or put simply, end of proof)

    Duuuuude,
    Every religion/cult/tribe  rejects all other belief systems, and so do you.  But you refuse to see it that way.  I, as a rational skeptic, scrutinise the evidence for any claim and use the scientific method to determine what is true what is baloney.  See link below for the Baloney Detection Kit.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #145 - June 18, 2010, 12:31 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:21 AM
    A believing, obedient Muslim doesn't "wage war" he acts only in defense when attacked.  So commands Allah.  And if you do away with slavery, it removes an opportunity to do good.  


    What you interpret as being defense is subjective.  Even Hitler asserted that he was acting in defense when he invaded Czechoslovakia.  The Arabs ended up expanding through all of Northern Africa and they reached central Asia, and you call that defense?  What good comes with taking slaves?  Why do you need to take slaves to do good?  Why do you need to degrade and humiliate other people so that you can be seen to do good and secure a place in paradise?  Isn't that egoistic?  You are not doing good, you are simply concerned with the afterlife and want an insurance....  
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #146 - June 18, 2010, 12:32 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 11:59 PM
    Ah, but I am capable of understanding that and All-Powerful Supreme Being is separate from His creation and is thus, not limited by it.  It is the limited understanding of mere men (European or not) who are confused by the issue.

    They weren't confused - you seem incapable of understanding what they were saying.
    Quote
    Not me.   Wink

    Indeed you have proven that you are not like people who can follow a logical argument.

    I bow to you, sir.

    Quote
    That is my attempted speculation into the nature of the Unknowable.  Similar to the speculation of your precious old europeans.  Either way, it is God who knows and we who know not.  But it is fun to speculate.  It's only a danger when someone (kinda like our friend hupla) attempt to pass off the speculation as Fact.

    I am merely using logic to show illogic.  I have asserted no facts.  It is you with your god that make claims as to facts - I am merely proving that they are inconsistent and contradict each other.

    Quote
    Does it?  Or does it mean instead that's only what it appears to ones such as us, who happen not to be omniscient?

    Yes it does.

    Quote
    Considering their foolishness led them to the idea that God is not All-Knowing why would I do that?  So I can court hell for your amusment?

    You have already stated that your god is not all knowing - so why are you so concerned if others believe the same?
    And actually the resolution for many was that in order to preserve divine omniscient, there was no such thing as free will - hence the concept of predestination.

    Quote
    btw what does QED mean?

    Quod erat demonstrandum
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #147 - June 18, 2010, 12:35 AM
    Quote from: hupla on June 18, 2010, 12:21 AM
    The point is not whether he should or should not. The point is whether he can or cannot. You understand that if he cannot he is not omnipotent - by definition.  It is so important because it establishes that your god is either not omnipotent, not omniscient  or that free will does not exist.


    This is not important.  This is called "nitpicking on foolish points" and is the domain of those nonsense minded Eurpeans mentioned above.  The exact function of God's power.  How is that something we.. WE... can possibly truly understand?  If this will be the sum total of the discussions you will bring, hupla, I'm afraid I will have to put you on 'mute.'

    Speak of more MEATY matters, please, like your fellow board members.

    Quote from: hupla on June 18, 2010, 12:21 AM
    (though you have already confirmed that this is the case earlier when talking about his forgetfulness)


    God is limited only by what He deliberately imposes on Himself, such as that repenttance/forgiveness example, plus His promise to only smash the unbelievers when it is time for Judgment.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #148 - June 18, 2010, 12:42 AM
    Gotta go, guys.  I'll be back tomorrow.

    And thanks a lot for welcoming me in so quickly.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #149 - June 18, 2010, 12:42 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:35 AM
    God is limited only by what He deliberately imposes on Himself, such as that repenttance/forgiveness example, plus His promise to only smash the unbelievers when it is time for Judgment.


    You said that he sees the future no matter what I might decide, why does he judge unbelievers when they cannot help it?  Why did he condemn them to eternal torment before they were born?  He is detached and independent but he sees everything as you said...
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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