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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #330 - June 19, 2010, 05:45 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 19, 2010, 05:25 PM
    And so are you. Refusing to comment on my posts because you know deep inside you're disturbed this verse doesn't exist. I can of course go around with a signature, paraphrasing you. But that would be an assholish thing to do. I just wish you had the honesty to stand up for your beliefs. Or let them go.

    This argument has nothing to do with the existence of God. It's dealing with an All Merciful God, the Creator God, the Omniscient God forgetting to put a verse regarding one of the most abhorrent acts in human history. He didn't mention rape either. He didn't say do NOT rape.

    Why?

    How can I have as a feeble being have more morals and insight than an All Merciful God, it's illogical. So, I am not sure this book comes from Him.  

    In this book He rails HARD and OFTEN against SHIRK. He prohibits Usury, Wine, Pig. He changes the Qibla, he changes the status of marrying your adopted son's ex-wife. But leaves out Slavery.

    So it is practiced by the "best" of people (Christians and Muslims) until recently. How many millions were not enslaved? How many died because of this command was not strictly forbidden? How many women were raped because their masters felt it was within their right to have sex with them. How many beaten? Down-trodden? Punished when they tried to escape? Executed when they tried to defend themselves. All this blood is on the hands of this God. It's dripping from the crooked spine of these two holy books. Or perhaps, perhaps, this God, same God of the Bible and the Quran, since Slavery is not strictly forbidden in either book doesn't mind Slavery?

    Then I am going to hell. Because there is no way I can change my stance on slavery. I feel its repugnant to own another human being, no matter how kindly I treat them. And please do not compare it to a prisoner or a hostage in a war.

    Have the balls to stand up for your beliefs. If God has not put this verse here, then say it. You have answered everybody else but not me. Even though I have spoken to you in a polite manner.


    Come on BD, I already said slavery (even of combatants) IS evil... what else do you want me to say?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #331 - June 19, 2010, 05:47 PM
    Quote from: Angel54 on June 19, 2010, 04:17 PM

    I'm floored. Your argument is damning. I hang my head in shame. (Clicky for piccy!)


    In my opinion, slavery is evil, it is immoral to rape slaves, and people should defend their own claims, but I acknowledge that others may disagree, which would be completely valid.


    Did I do it better this time?   grin12


    yes. Smiley
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #332 - June 19, 2010, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 19, 2010, 12:32 PM
    Meh.  Let it be.  Let him live in accordance with his ancient superstitous rituals, the tribe in Bungo Bongolong manage it happily too, so why cant he?   At least he is not hurting anyone.

    Let him do salat 5 times a day, avoid certain food & drinks, go to the mosque regularly and live in a certain pre-prescribed way.

    He's not fooling you, the only person that he is fooling is himself.  


    I don't have a problem with Debunker at all. Nor with his beliefs. I think he's a great guy. And I understand the peace that can come with praying and all that ijaz. It's not about that at all. It's about two things, admitting that something is not there. I wasn't asking for his opinion on it at the time, I never said WHY is not there, not trying to guilt trip. Just to tell me that line is not there, in direct words. And I was honestly trying to look for the line myself. Slavery is probably one of those things that disturbed me the most and I bought all that stuff about it being an establishment and that it was abolished bit by bit. Which is bullshit, poorly made arguments. Christian abolitionists don't have this verse either, they have other verses to treat people well and love them, basically don't mistreat slaves is they best you can do. So it was an up-hill climb for them. While they are climbing up-hill, thousands are being enslaved and killed down-hill.

    And the muslim countries were the last to abolish. And in some parts of the muslim world slavery still exists. Because of this verse not being there.

    I wish it was there, along with many other verses. It would save me the time to read all the polemics and apologia for a bronzed age religion that just doesn't fit the mind-frame of a 21th century world. It has again nothing to do with God. Not really. Next time I discuss religion with a muslim or a Christian, trying to guilt-trip me I'll ask them to find me this verse. And I'll be prepared for their arguments.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #333 - June 19, 2010, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 19, 2010, 05:45 PM
    Come on BD, I already said slavery (even of combatants) IS evil... what else do you want me to say?


    You know what I asked for but it's OK, let's just make peace Smiley hugs

    And it was never about your morals, so you know. I never said you were a bad person (just an occasional hard-ass).
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #334 - June 19, 2010, 05:56 PM
    OK, BD there is NO EXPLICIT verse in the Quran that says enslaving non-combatants is forbidden.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #335 - June 19, 2010, 05:59 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 19, 2010, 05:56 PM
    OK, BD there is NO EXPLICIT verse in the Quran that says enslaving non-combatants is forbidden.


    I wonder what I can do with this piece of information? Maybe a new signature?

     evil

    ----

    Kidding Grin

    thanks btw Smiley
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #336 - June 19, 2010, 06:00 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 19, 2010, 05:36 PM
    Sorry but I don't get it? How is that relevant to the discussion at hand?


    Maybe she's trying to say that Islam explicitly (or implicitly) allows honor killings, which is an obvious falsehood.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #337 - June 19, 2010, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 19, 2010, 06:00 PM
    Maybe she's trying to say that Islam explicitly (or implicitly) allows honor killings, which is an obvious falsehood.


    Yes I agree. I can't find a verse that supports this in Islam. If we had an honest discussion of this in the media I would be happy.

    But that would also entail being honest about women's status in Islam. Within scripture and hadiths etc

    That the man is superior, and many times this has meant women being treated as property or simply treated unfairly. And if you have a crazy, misogynistic bastard that can spell even further trouble.

    But murdering your daughter, sister, wife is not allowed as far as I know. I really wish there was an out lash anytime this happened, unfortunately in Islam there is a shame culture, or rather something that has sprung from it. Not criticizing another brother in the open. So it becomes hidden and if you try open your mouth regarding it you are met with opposition. Both from the good people (who are trying to follow religion and would not harm women) and from the evil bastards that just simply don't give a fuck and think women are beneath a man and not equal.

    I think it's mostly a culture thing, I think other religions in the Middle-east have an honor culture as well, where girls get murdered.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #338 - June 19, 2010, 06:22 PM
    Honor Killings are purely cultural and have nothing to do with the religion.

    If you go to FFI, you'd find posts about Pakistani men killing their wives for failing to pay them higher dowaries* as an Islamic behavior.


    *In pakistan, the bride pays her husband the dowry, not the other way around, and yet FFIers got the nerve to blame this on Islam.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #339 - June 19, 2010, 06:53 PM
    bg... it is regards to women (slaves OR wives) in islam being treated with dignity and respect.  that is a very long page, and has listed the young ladies and women who have been brutally killed by their muslim families for the sake of their honor.
    One womam, who still had henna on her hands from the wedding (and autopsy SHOWED she was in fact still a virgin),
    her husband was impotent and hence, killed her to maintain his honor.  It later on states that he CLAIMED he was suspicious of infidelity.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #340 - June 19, 2010, 07:27 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 19, 2010, 05:37 PM
    @ DD

    It appears you did NOT read the verses I listed, nor did you read the conversation from the beginning. No matter, could you please tell me, how would Muslim women running away from their PAGAN husbands seek refuge with Muslims, without Muslims having their own place of refuge? Clearly the verses were revealed in MEDINA!


    Quote
    how would He allow Muslims to sleep with non-combatants.


    The thing is at the time these this verse was revealed (during hijrah not the medinan "phase") there was no wahiy regrading jihad. So is it correct if I use this as evidence to say that there is no Jihad in Islam?

    You're also using a verse that was revealed before jihad so how could this apply to "non combatants" when the at the time Muslims weren't even allowed to enter combat even in self defense?

    Quote
    As for Muslims being somehow united on choosing Source A, so what? Many wrongs don't make a right (6:116). If it helps inflate their fucking ego, so be it, as long as they don't impose their crazy views upon me.


    Ok this is fine. As long as we are clear that these are your views and in no way represent "mainstream" Islam.
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #341 - June 19, 2010, 07:44 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 19, 2010, 06:22 PM
    *In pakistan, the bride pays her husband the dowry, not the other way around, and yet FFIers got the nerve to blame this on Islam.

    Thats right - we can blame this one on another religion.  Thats the one of the Hindus  Afro

    Lets just do away with religion, and stick with humanism.  OK DB ?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #342 - June 19, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 19, 2010, 07:44 PM


    Lets just do away with religion, and stick with humanism.  OK DB ?


    ^^^ THIS
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #343 - June 19, 2010, 08:07 PM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 19, 2010, 07:27 PM
    The thing is at the time these this verse was revealed (during hijrah not the medinan "phase") there was no wahiy regrading jihad. So is it correct if I use this as evidence to say that there is no Jihad in Islam?

    You're also using a verse that was revealed before jihad so how could this apply to "non combatants" when the at the time Muslims weren't even allowed to enter combat even in self defense?


    Sura 60 is Medinan.

    Quote
    Ok this is fine. As long as we are clear that these are your views and in no way represent "mainstream" Islam.


    of course my views are not mainstream Islam... I already told you (or was it someone else?) I don't view the "scholars" as being anything special.... but again, the fact is, for those who are interested, contradictory sources are available, they just have to choose.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #344 - June 19, 2010, 08:12 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 19, 2010, 08:07 PM
    Sura 60 is Medinan.


    But the key point is...Was this ayah revealed before or after jihad was ordained for the Muslims?

    Quote
    of course my views are not mainstream Islam... I already told you (or was it someone else?) I don't view the "scholars" as being anything special.... but again, the fact is, for those who are interested, contradictory sources are available, they just have to choose.


    Fair enough
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #345 - June 19, 2010, 08:16 PM
    GREAT QUESTION!

    It was revealed # 91 right after Al-Ahzab, right after the Surah that mentioned the Meccan coalition to crush the Muslims! So many battles have already been fought before Sura 60 and it was revealed AFTER the Meccans almost totally crushed the Muslims with their big coalition.

     http://www.missionislam.com/quran/revealationorder.htm
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #346 - June 19, 2010, 08:35 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 19, 2010, 08:16 PM
    GREAT QUESTION!

    It was revealed # 91 right after Al-Ahzab, right after the Surah that mentioned the Meccan coalition to crush the Muslims! So many battles have already been fought before Sura 60 and it was revealed AFTER the Meccans almost totally crushed the Muslims with their big coalition.

     http://www.missionislam.com/quran/revealationorder.htm


    I'm gonna need to look into this further because quran was revealed ayah by ayah not by surah. Some surahs contain verses revealed in both mecca and medina. You could be right though.
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #347 - June 19, 2010, 10:37 PM
    debunker.... no, honor slaughters are not in the koran persay, but pray tell, dude, what is the male psyche of the male muslim, that is is prevelant in muslim countries?  Even muslim countries with secular govts turn a blind eye to it. 
    We can get into the difference between culture and religion, but every single one of those women were from muslim families, and the men in MOST cases claimed their wives/daughters were doing haram shit, or AGAINST the koran, hence
    to save face, they were killed.  The women became too westernized, or didnt want to follow islam to the letter, and on and on it goes.  EVEN IF its not sanctioned in the koran, again...  it was breeches OF the koran that they met with this fate.

    I have known GOOD muslim men, who i dont think would EVER dream of hurting, beating, raping or killing their wives.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #348 - June 20, 2010, 01:26 PM
    Quote
    debunker.... no, honor slaughters are not in the koran persay, but pray tell, dude, what is the male psyche of the male muslim, that is is prevelant in muslim countries?  Even muslim countries with secular govts turn a blind eye to it. 
    We can get into the difference between culture and religion, but every single one of those women were from muslim families, and the men in MOST cases claimed their wives/daughters were doing haram shit, or AGAINST the koran, hence
    to save face, they were killed.  The women became too westernized, or didnt want to follow islam to the letter, and on and on it goes.  EVEN IF its not sanctioned in the koran, again...  it was breeches OF the koran that they met with this fate.


    I think you belong in FFI, dear Dreamer... what you said above sounds exactly like the same kind of shit routinely spewed over there. But, I'll pretend that your argument is based on total ignorance rather than biggotry and I'll give you the same lecture I gave people there, which was of course ignored. Here you go:

    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4991#p82314
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4991#p82417

    In those two links, I discussed acid attacks on women and honor killings as plaguing a big part of the world that is NON-Islamic. Read up, and then come back here... let's see if you still think the same. 
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #349 - June 20, 2010, 02:49 PM
    DeBunker... I am well aware that the disfigurations and honor killings are "cultural" in nature.  As is FGM in
    egypt and africa (primarily)  And one could cliam the insanity of many religions because of "cultural practices".
    Are the torture and murder "fatwahs"  from folks like the Ayatola and taliban also cultural?  Or does the koran
    and hadiths support this?  As well as rape of slaves and torturing/killing of kaffirs?

    I am just as perplexed by the western mindset as many of you.  (i didnt move permanently to the west until i was 17)

    MANY relgions do incomprehensible heinous crimes in the name of their "god(s)"  This does not change the fact,
    however, that my heart breaks into a million peices when inncoent women and children suffer from things done
    in the name of "god(s)" 

    (I may be ignorant, but I am WILLING to learn the truth.  I do suffer from cognitive distortions sometimes, and
    am working hard to change this.  pls be patient with me.  It has nothing to do with "western culture" tho Smiley  )
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #350 - June 20, 2010, 02:58 PM
    did you even read anything I wrote in those two links?

    No. Latino crinimals don't kill their women because they're Catholic, nor do Hindu criminals acid burn the faces of their women because of their religion. They do these things because a criminal is a criminal regardless of his religion.

    I can see any talk with you is a waste of time.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #351 - June 20, 2010, 03:02 PM
    wth?  yes i did read those links.  ALL of it.  im still waiting on an answer to my questions about fatwahs.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #352 - June 20, 2010, 03:06 PM
    Fatwas? What fatwas? Although it makes no difference what a particular imam farts off his ass, but I'm willing to CHALLENGE you to show me one FartWa that says you can do honor killing/burn faces with acid.  
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #353 - June 20, 2010, 03:24 PM
     Huh?  now im the one who thinks this is pointless LOL.. did you READ my post?  Did i say anything about fatwahs
    for acid burning or honor killing?   Cheesy
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #354 - June 20, 2010, 03:49 PM
    Ok, so you're saying, there's no Fatwas for honor killings or acid attacks, and I'm sure there's no such thing in the Quran or even the weirdest Hadith PLUS these criminal practices are also rampant in non Muslim countries, so what's this BS about Islam being somehow responsible for this?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #355 - June 21, 2010, 02:59 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 18, 2010, 08:50 AM
    even if it were 99.99% of Muslims, why should I care? In fact, I AM playing by *their* rules and according to their rules, it is heresy to treat the work of men as the absolute truth, especialy when they contradict the Quran... so no, the scholars are no prophets and I am my own scholar.


    [quoted for Truth]   Afro
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #356 - June 21, 2010, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 18, 2010, 09:42 PM
    A word of advice... don't answer, no, don't read any of yezvees posts, the guy is mentally deranged with incoherent ramblings which he deems important for everyone to read.. if you're going to ignore any member here, yezvee should be ranked #1 on your list.


    LOL!!!!
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #357 - June 21, 2010, 03:02 PM
    I said: "lol
    I believe that depictions of Allah and/or the prophet's is haram, but everything else is fair game.  Plus I don't like caligraphy that much.  lol"
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on June 18, 2010, 11:17 PM
    Why? In common sense terms.  Welcome, by the way: should be fun.


    Which part?  Drawing pics of God or the calligraphy thing?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #358 - June 21, 2010, 03:08 PM
    DB... I am STILL waiting on the answer to my question...

    Are the torture and murder "fatwahs"  from folks like the Ayatola and taliban also cultural?  Or does the koran and hadiths support this?  As well as rape of slaves and torturing/killing of kaffirs?
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #359 - June 21, 2010, 03:08 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 18, 2010, 11:35 PM
    The Wright brothers analogy is a particularly poor one.


    No, it's not.

    Quote from: osmanthus on June 18, 2010, 11:35 PM
    What actually happened is that they wanted to build a plane...


    That's the faith part.  They had faith that it could be done... that humans could actually fly... despite many other people saying it was impossible.

    Quote from: osmanthus on June 18, 2010, 11:35 PM
    so they researched it from every angle they could think of and pushed the current technology to its limits to get a working result.


    In effect "doing Good Works" based on their faith.

    Quote from: osmanthus on June 18, 2010, 11:35 PM
    This is a lot different to praying to Allah for a plane.


    Of course it is.  Who would do that?  Are you implying that there have never been any Muslim scientists?  That all Muslims are wandering ascetics?  
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