Peace, All

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #450 - June 21, 2010, 08:58 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 08:55 PM
I believe that if you do not have belief in the One who made you, your deeds will be as worthless as dust blowing on the wind or whatever. Believe in God, do good deeds, reject evil is the Message.

So Gandhi is burning in hell for all eternity?

Why would an all-good and merciful God send good people who do good deeds to be eternally tortured simply for not believing in him? This contradicts the very concepts of "good" and "merciful". If any human being did that, we would call it despicable.

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #451 - June 21, 2010, 09:00 PM

Right, since everyone else is firing away anyway, I'm gonna join in.

MRasheed, you wrote the following two (contradictory) statements, within the same post:

It would only be unfair if He acted in a way contrary to what He said.

Is He not the one who makes the rules? So what difference does it make what WE think?

And then when I called you on it you responded with this:

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 07:16 PM
Is He not "God?" He is the Supreme Creator of reality itself. He is the author of the very concept of rules. It is His standard that is the Ultimate Standard.

Do YOU understand?

Which, you must realise, contradicts your earlier statement:

It would only be unfair if He acted in a way contrary to what He said.

You said that Allah makes the standard, yet at the same time stated that it would be unfair for Allah to act in a way other than the way he says that he will. But of course, you can't do this, as you renounce any moral standard other than the one defined by Allah.

So my question is... where did you get your opinion that it would be unfair of Allah to act differently than the way in which he said he would? Do you have a conscience in your head that deviates from the dictates of the Clear Book?
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #452 - June 21, 2010, 09:02 PM

Oh, and I read your other responses, which were interesting enough. But instead, I'd like to pursue this rather than going off on numerous different tangents at once.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #453 - June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
How do you know that your belief that Islam is true is not just as misplaced as a Christian, Mormon, Jehova Witness, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Wiccan, Pagan etc...?

Hassan I believe the Qur'an is what it claims to be.

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
So 'acting' like a believer and eventually becoming a believer - will only work with Islam - and if it doesn't work, then one hasn't tried long enough - or been sincere enough. - Is that right?

I think that it will work and you need to stick it out. But you will be tested.

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
I tried for about 5 years. Was that not long enough?

Do you believe now?

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
Can this 'method' ('acting' like a believer and eventually becoming a believer) ever fail - if one is truly sincere?

God said that if you make the effort He would help you in your belief. After that help if you can still decide not to believe.

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
Is there any way you would ever accept that someone was sincere and tried but still didn't believe through no fault of his own?

"ME???" What?

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
Perhaps.

Dr. Rick Strassman's DMT experiments. Look it up, please.

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
Which rules are they? The Qur'an is not the only one out there. Is it the ones that say the only way to the father is through his son Jesus Christ and if I don't accept him I will suffer eternal damnation? Or the Hindu belief that I will be reborn into a higher state if I follow their scriptures?

How do I know which one is right?

One of the things that made this forum exciting was the fact that you are all "ex-Muslims" and I could have a discussion from that point-of-view. Obviously I don't believe in the validity of those other faiths so why would you expect me to argue for them? I believe the Message of God is the way the Qur'an describes it.

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
Was that necessary?

Have I been rude to you?

I was truly only teasing and meant no offense. Obviously we don't know each other well enough for subtle digs and teasing. I apologize.

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:36 PM
How can someone be blamed for breaking rules when they have no way of knowing which rules are the ones they shouldn't break?

As I was arguing with an "exMuslim" I assumed the rules were well known to us both. It never occured to me that you never bothered to read the Qur'an during your weeks as a Muslim. Again I apologize. I will focus my discussions on debate partners who are somewhat less sensitive. Thank you for your time.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #454 - June 21, 2010, 09:12 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 21, 2010, 08:56 PM
I dont
Bottom of what?

lol
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #455 - June 21, 2010, 09:16 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 21, 2010, 08:43 PM
No they dont. It depends on the parent not on the kid. I know plenty of parents (myself included) who have never hit their child, and never intend to do so.

It is clear that this is within the realm of "personal preference" when it comes to childraising. This is also an example of the "best meaning of" in your decision to never raise your hand to a child and I commend you.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #456 - June 21, 2010, 09:17 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
Dr. Rick Strassman's DMT experiments. Look it up, please.

DMT as in the shit you smoke and it trips you out like crazy for 20 minutes? Like Foxy Methoxy and DiPT? That DMT?

Oh, and when you get a chance, would appreciate a response to my previous post here.

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #457 - June 21, 2010, 09:19 PM

ok MRasheed since you didn't respond to my first question i'll pst another one, so you can think both and then respond once.
if beliving in god of the qu'an so important and is also the only way to heaven so, how come that the native-americans who where found, after the creation of islam, didn't recieved the message before, i don't know who islam came first to america but it is many century after it's creation, so they hadn't any way to know "the truth" why god left them for so long??

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #458 - June 21, 2010, 09:19 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 21, 2010, 08:49 PM
Are you saying a Muslim must now - in this day and age - never resort to hitting his wife?

I'm saying that in order to be the best Muslim he can be, he should take the best meaning from the Qur'an. Obviously that involves not smacking his wife around, especially if she is his own age.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #459 - June 21, 2010, 09:22 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:00 PM
Right, since everyone else is firing away anyway, I'm gonna join in.

MRasheed, you wrote the following two (contradictory) statements, within the same post:

It would only be unfair if He acted in a way contrary to what He said.

Is He not the one who makes the rules? So what difference does it make what WE think?

And then when I called you on it you responded with this:

Which, you must realise, contradicts your earlier statement:

It would only be unfair if He acted in a way contrary to what He said.

You said that Allah makes the standard, yet at the same time stated that it would be unfair for Allah to act in a way other than the way he says that he will. But of course, you can't do this, as you renounce any moral standard other than the one defined by Allah.

So my question is... where did you get your opinion that it would be unfair of Allah to act differently than the way in which he said he would? Do you have a conscience in your head that deviates from the dictates of the Clear Book?

I'm sorry but I 100% cannot see where that was a contradictory statement. God makes the rules for us to live and prosper by. He only judges us by those rules he set otherwise it would not be fair.

wth?

I really don't understand your conflict. Truly.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #460 - June 21, 2010, 09:24 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 21, 2010, 09:17 PM
DMT as in the shit you smoke and it trips you out like crazy for 20 minutes? Like Foxy Methoxy and DiPT? That DMT?

Yup. The very same.

Quote from: Q-Man on June 21, 2010, 09:17 PM
Oh, and when you get a chance, would appreciate a response to my previous post here.

I think I responded to that on page 17 or 18.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #461 - June 21, 2010, 09:27 PM

No, look at the top of this page (page 19)

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #462 - June 21, 2010, 09:27 PM

...unless you were talking about this one.

Quote from: Q-Man on June 21, 2010, 08:58 PM
So Gandhi is burning in hell for all eternity?

1.) It's not the Day of Judgment yet.
2.) Only Allah is the Judge who will know people's final destinations. I cannot know that man's soul.

Quote from: Q-Man on June 21, 2010, 08:58 PM
Why would an all-good and merciful God send good people who do good deeds to be eternally tortured simply for not believing in him? This contradicts the very concepts of "good" and "merciful". If any human being did that, we would call it despicable.

Is it not Allah who defines what is 'good', what is 'bad' and who deserves His Mercy?
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #463 - June 21, 2010, 09:28 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 03:02 PM
I said: "lol
I believe that depictions of Allah and/or the prophet's is haram, but everything else is fair game. Plus I don't like caligraphy that much. lol"
Which part? Drawing pics of God or the calligraphy thing?

All of it. Explain please.

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #464 - June 21, 2010, 09:29 PM

Quote
Is it not Allah who defines what is 'good', what is 'bad' and who deserves His Mercy?

i don't think so

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #465 - June 21, 2010, 09:32 PM

Quote from: kero-zen on June 21, 2010, 08:50 PM
MRasheed think for a moment, try to imagine that christianity is the true religion(it is an exemple), then even that you had faith in god as a muslim, when you die he sent you to hell, just cause you didn't believed that the christ died in the cross. Try to imagine that happening to you, would you think that god is fear??

'Fair' is Him doing what He said He would while giving us a lifetime to choose the right way. Unfair is Him not doing what He said after spelling out all the rules and conditions. I've known for quite sometime now that the consequence of my rejection of faith is the Lake of Fire no matter what I may personally feel about the concept. If I find myself in the thing, it will not be unfair on His part, but stupid on my own.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #466 - June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
Hassan I believe the Qur'an is what it claims to be.

One of the things that made this forum exciting was the fact that you are all "ex-Muslims" and I could have a discussion from that point-of-view. Obviously I don't believe in the validity of those other faiths so why would you expect me to argue for them? I believe the Message of God is the way the Qur'an describes it.

As I was arguing with an "exMuslim" I assumed the rules were well known to us both. It never occured to me that you never bothered to read the Qur'an during your weeks as a Muslim. Again I apologize. I will focus my discussions on debate partners who are somewhat less sensitive. Thank you for your time.

I'm seeing the same consistent pattern in your thinking and argumentation.

That is, the complete, yet entirely unsubstantiated, belief in Islam's truth.

You are not being asked what you believe, you are being asked why you believe it.

It seems to me that you're saying that you assert that Islam is true because you believe that it's true, and therefore you completely beg the question. But you see, any religionist could do exactly the same, and could conclude that any apparent problem with their belief system is nothing more than a 'test.'

Anyone, no matter how false their religion may be, could do exactly what you're doing, and what you invite others to do, with Islam. You also assumed that only a Muslim can do this, but anyone can do so, and anyone can continue to act as though they believed, all the while thinking, until they die, that their genuine absence of faith was nothing more than a test for them.

It seems to me that you respond to points made to you in the most superficial of ways, and fail (intentionally or otherwise) to see the implications of your responses and statements.

One of the problems is that you are arguing from the perspective of Islam being the infallible truth, whereas we do not grant that assumption.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #467 - June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:22 PM
I'm sorry but I 100% cannot see where that was a contradictory statement. God makes the rules for us to live and prosper by. He only judges us by those rules he set otherwise it would not be fair.
I really don't understand your conflict. Truly.

Yeah-you've demonstrated that there are a number of things you do not.
Read what you wrote here again. You say "it would not be fair". Suggesting that fair is defined objectively or by you - not by your god. If you follow your earlier logic fully then "fair" is also defined by your god. In which case it is not for you to worry if your god in fact sends you to hell for following your god's rules after he promises you that you get to heaven - after all he is the one who defines fair and if that includes changing the rules because he feels like it, who are you to dispute that it is not fair.

(Unless of course your logic in the second part is what you now believe is true: in which case you are saying that morality exists outside your god and your god is subject to it).
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #468 - June 21, 2010, 09:36 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on June 21, 2010, 09:28 PM
All of it. Explain please.

1.) I believe paganism 'evolved' out of early believers creating depictions of what they thought God and the prophets looked like or whatever. Begining as innocent tribute and, over the course of the generations, transforming into something monstrous. So I see how obviously that would be wrobut not the depictions of nature and stuff.
2.) Calligraphy doesn't inspire me. It's not my favorite kind of art. I like cartooning and illustration. And animation.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #469 - June 21, 2010, 09:36 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:24 PM
Yup. The very same.

haha is it like salvia?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPuGJM_0DwI

I'm an asshat.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #470 - June 21, 2010, 09:37 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 04:12 PM
No, I'm good. Thanks though.

I'm having a ball, don't mind me. Keep 'em comin'.

You don't consider your argument "preaching" just because you don't believe in God? "Slavery is evil!! How dare you! You're stupid because you don't think slavery is evil!!" lol

I don't think I'm right about everything. Somethings I try and interpret through the Word of God and form my opinion accordingly. I trust on your counterarguments to help me work out the kinks in my own argument about those types of things. God is the one who is right about everything, so if He says something then I form my opinion around that. He is the omniscient one after all. I give Him the benfit of the doubt that He knows what He is talking about.

Bring it on then.

Maiow! There is no god and therefore no word of god - it's all in your head, unless you can give us some concrete evidence for this moiety without once referring to any of those mouldy old books you keep banging on from.

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #471 - June 21, 2010, 09:38 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:27 PM
...unless you were talking about this one.

2.) Only Allah is the Judge who will know people's final destinations. I cannot know that man's soul.

But Gandhi worshipped idols? Like us kaffirs, according to the Quran he IS destined to hell. Dont you know that?

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #472 - June 21, 2010, 09:38 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
Hassan I believe the Qur'an is what it claims to be.

I know you do - but I'm asking how? How do you know you are right and others religions are wrong?

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
I think that it will work and you need to stick it out. But you will be tested... <snip> ...God said that if you make the effort He would help you in your belief. After that help if you can still decide not to believe.

As I said I tried for 5 years. So you think I should continue like that until I die?

Can you not see that from my perspective I have no reason to do that anymore than I should keep trying to believe Christ is the son of God until I die.

I'm asking you to think about it from my perspective - not from the perspective of a believer.

Why should I keep acting as though I believe something I don't?

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
"ME???" What?

OK, so you cannot conceive of anyone 'acting' like a Muslim and not end up believing.

So what have those - like me - done wrong, would you say?

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
Dr. Rick Strassman's DMT experiments. Look it up, please.

Sure.

Did you watch the videos I posted btw?

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
One of the things that made this forum exciting was the fact that you are all "ex-Muslims" and I could have a discussion from that point-of-view. Obviously I don't believe in the validity of those other faiths so why would you expect me to argue for them? I believe the Message of God is the way the Qur'an describes it.

Of course I know that, Rasheed. I'm trying to show you that to those who have no belief in any religion then the claims of all of them are on the same level. How do we know which one is right?

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
I was truly only teasing and meant no offense. Obviously we don't know each other well enough for subtle digs and teasing. I apologize.

No problem

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:11 PM
As I was arguing with an "exMuslim" I assumed the rules were well known to us both. It never occured to me that you never bothered to read the Qur'an during your weeks as a Muslim. Again I apologize. I will focus my discussions on debate partners who are somewhat less sensitive. .

I was a Muslim for 48 years (I'm 51 now) and know it pretty well - I used to be very devout and was a teacher at an Islamic School - and I know Arabic and studied Tafseer. Of course I know the rules that Islam claims are true.

But as I don't believe them. To me, they are on the same level as the rules of all religions.

Why should I believe one religion over another?

And can someone - who doesn't believe in ANY of these religions and rules - be blamed for breaking rules they don't believe are true?

Are you blameworthy for breaking the rules of Christianity that you don't believe in?
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #473 - June 21, 2010, 09:40 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM
It seems to me that you respond to points made to you in the most superficial of ways, and fail (intentionally or otherwise) to see the implications of your responses and statements.

Yeah - spotted that too. I am also not sure if it is intentional or something else. He does not follow logical arguments.
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #474 - June 21, 2010, 09:41 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 03:39 PM
CORRECTION: And this is very important. I do not think you will go to hell because you are not Muslim. You will go to hell because you once believed, and then you rejected the belief. This is called a Transgressor of Faith. You will indeed go to hell if you die in that state. My advice? REPENT! And believe in the Lord who created you once again.

All the prophets were "grown." It is an adult issue. Spread by adults. Since the beginning. Is there a committee of little kids somewhere who scribble out the ideologies of the world that you disagree with and distribute them worldwide?

Prove to us that there is a hell. Prove to us that we were 'created' by anything other than the gradual process of evolution from the very fabric of this planet.

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #475 - June 21, 2010, 09:44 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:27 PM
...unless you were talking about this one.

Yep

Quote
1.) It's not the Day of Judgment yet.

Oh, come on-- "will be" then, sheesh.

Quote
2.) Only Allah is the Judge who will know people's final destinations. I cannot know that man's soul.

Wait, this contradicts what you said earlier when you said ex-Muslims are hellbound, and when you said someone who does not believe in God and his message, who has more good deeds than bad, etc. will go to hell.

You can't have it both ways. If Allah is sole judge of people's souls and you cannot know his judgment then you can't go around making statements about who goes to hell and who doesn't.

Quote
Is it not Allah who defines what is 'good', what is 'bad' and who deserves His Mercy?

No. Good and evil exist independent of the supernatural. They exist as functions of our conscience, reason, rights and obligations.

I know torturing your own children forever, not because they have done wrong to others, but simply because they lacked faith in your authority, is not just wrong, it's downright evil. And if that's what God is doing, then God is evil. But I don't believe in God so I don't have to worry about wrapping my head around such paradoxical concepts of theology.

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #476 - June 21, 2010, 09:45 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM
I'm seeing the same consistent pattern in your thinking and argumentation.

That is, the complete, yet entirely unsubstantiated, belief in Islam's truth.

Thanks!

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM
You are not being asked what you believe, you are being asked why you believe it.

Because when I read the words of His Book, I believe Him. They make sense to me. It will profit me nothing to decide to disbelieve, and I win everything to believe. So why not?

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM
It seems to me that you're saying that you assert that Islam is true because you believe that it's true, and therefore you completely beg the question. But you see, any religionist could do exactly the same, and could conclude that any apparent problem with their belief system is nothing more than a 'test.'

Sure. But why do I care about "them?"

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM
Anyone, no matter how false their religion may be, could do exactly what you're doing, and what you invite others to do, with Islam. You also assumed that only a Muslim can do this, but anyone can do so, and anyone can continue to act as though they believed, all the while thinking, until they die, that their genuine absence of faith was nothing more than a test for them.

Well, I know that Allah said that if we reach towards Him He will take steps towards us. I don't know if the same is in the other books.

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM
It seems to me that you respond to points made to you in the most superficial of ways, and fail (intentionally or otherwise) to see the implications of your responses and statements.

lol
I'm sorry if I'm not responding the way you would wish me to, but I am responding based on what I actually believe. If that isn't good enough for you to have a thoroughly satisfying debate with me, I'm afraid I cannot help you.

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM
One of the problems is that you are arguing from the perspective of Islam being the infallible truth, whereas we do not grant that assumption.

From my point-of-view it is by no means a 'problem.'

Would you like me instead to deny my faith and argue based on atheistic rules?
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #477 - June 21, 2010, 09:46 PM

Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 09:19 PM
I'm saying that in order to be the best Muslim he can be, he should take the best meaning from the Qur'an. Obviously that involves not smacking his wife around, especially if she is his own age.

Of course.

But if it is done as the prophet said in hadith - Darban Ghayr Mubarrih (Not harsh hitting) and leaves no mark, and not on the face and with an item like a Miswak - then would it still be permissible in the right circumstances or should it now never be resorted to?
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Re: Peace, All
Reply #478 - June 21, 2010, 09:46 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 21, 2010, 09:35 PM
It seems to me that you respond to points made to you in the most superficial of ways, and fail (intentionally or otherwise) to see the implications of your responses and statements.

One of the problems is that you are arguing from the perspective of Islam being the infallible truth, whereas we do not grant that assumption.

, thats what I meant by simplicity, and seeing the world in a totally different way

Quote
It seems to me that you're saying that you assert that Islam is true because you believe that it's true, and therefore you completely beg the question. But you see, any religionist could do exactly the same, and could conclude that any apparent problem with their belief system is nothing more than a 'test.'

Anyone, no matter how false their religion may be, could do exactly what you're doing, and what you invite others to do, with Islam. You also assumed that only a Muslim can do this, but anyone can do so, and anyone can continue to act as though they believed, all the while thinking, until they die, that their genuine absence of faith was nothing more than a test for them.

I sensed that too - I sent him the link about memes, I hope he looked at it..

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Re: Peace, All
Reply #479 - June 21, 2010, 09:47 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 21, 2010, 09:36 PM
haha is it like salvia?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPuGJM_0DwI

No, in the sense that it is not a disassociative hallucinogen and unlike salvia I believe it was criminalized by the US government (and presumably many other governments as we bully them into accepting our draconian drug laws) a few years back.

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