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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #600 - June 22, 2010, 12:21 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 12:16 AM
    He was very much the best of mankind and the ultimate man.  What possible criteria are you using to determine that?

    ummm... it totally is.  Totally.  ("Like, Oh my GaawwwDDDD!")

     
    What are you talking about, BlackDog?

    God wants it to be about faith.  Why wouldn't He make it "clear" in the way you are asking otherwise.  "Faith" is obviously a big, big deal to Him.


    What siras have you read of him?

    We're gonna go in circles with the other arguments in your post. So I'll focus on what you have read.

    You mentioned Haykal. Have you read Alfred Guillaume's, The Life of Muhammad. A translation of Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul... "
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #601 - June 22, 2010, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 22, 2010, 12:18 AM
    And then have it served at that nice restaurant you mentioned.


    Bojangles is by no means a "nice" restaurant.  It's more like that wack Church's Chicken.

    With sweet tea.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #602 - June 22, 2010, 12:24 AM
     Cheesy
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #603 - June 22, 2010, 12:25 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 22, 2010, 12:21 AM
    What siras have you read of him?

    We're gonna go in circles with the other arguments in your post. So I'll focus on what you have read.

    You mentioned Haykal. Have you read Alfred Guillaume's, The Life of Muhammad. A translation of Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul... "


    I've read the others a while ago but they annoyed me for various reasons and I barely remember them.  Haykal's was the best to me.  
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #604 - June 22, 2010, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 12:23 AM
    Bojangles is by no means a "nice" restaurant.  It's more like that wack Church's Chicken.

    With sweet tea.


    Blasphemer! Bojangles is WAYYYY better than Church's. Did Allah remove your taste buds? Wouldn't surprise me, he doesn't seem to like people enjoying themselves.
    fuck you
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #605 - June 22, 2010, 12:28 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 22, 2010, 12:17 AM
    Without religion instructing us as to what is right/wrong, and holding us back socially, politically, and scientifically, we'd probably have eliminated world hunger and cured cancer by now.


    Okay, now we're getting interesting again.  How is religion holding us back?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #606 - June 22, 2010, 12:28 AM
    MRasheed: how fluent are you in Arabic?
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #607 - June 22, 2010, 12:30 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 22, 2010, 12:27 AM
    Blasphemer! Bojangles is WAYYYY better than Church's.


    PSH!  It's about the same.  Although I think you can taste the hormones and arsenic in church's better.

    Quote from: Q-Man on June 22, 2010, 12:27 AM
    Did Allah remove your taste buds? Wouldn't surprise me, he doesn't seem to like people enjoying themselves.


    Is this a pork/buttsex reference?

    ew.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #608 - June 22, 2010, 12:31 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 22, 2010, 12:28 AM
    MRasheed: how fluent are you in Arabic?


    I can read/write but I can't do conversation yet.  Working on it.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #609 - June 22, 2010, 12:31 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 22, 2010, 12:27 AM
    Blasphemer! Bojangles is WAYYYY better than Church's. Did Allah remove your taste buds? Wouldn't surprise me, he doesn't seem to like people enjoying themselves.

    +10000000
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #610 - June 22, 2010, 12:44 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 12:31 AM
    I can read/write but I can't do conversation yet.  Working on it.

    I see.

    And do you think that your understanding of the Quran is infallible?
    Or is it possible that you might interpret it wrongly?
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #611 - June 22, 2010, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 12:30 AM
    Is this a pork/buttsex reference?


    Pork, buttsex, alcohol, drugs, music, dancing, homosexuals being able to live freely, people being allowed to think and speak how they please without being punished for it, not being a slave to one's husband, not being a slave to a fictional entity created in the minds of ignorant, illiterate tribesmen thousands of years ago...

    ...to name a few enjoyable things that displease Allah
    fuck you
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #612 - June 22, 2010, 04:10 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 03:08 PM
    No, it's not.

    That's the faith part.  They had faith that it could be done... that humans could actually fly... despite many other people saying it was impossible.

    In effect "doing Good Works" based on their faith.

    Of course it is.  Who would do that?  Are you implying that there have never been any Muslim scientists?  That all Muslims are wandering ascetics?

    No. Your Wright brothers analogy is still an appallingly poor one. I'll explain why.

    People have known for thousands of years that heavier-than-air flight is possible. The world is full of clear, logical, and repeatable evidence for this. Birds, bats, insects, etc are all heavier than an equal volume of air and all manage to fly just fine. A lot of critters (birds being the best at this) have also mastered efficient gliding (ie: no flapping).

    Once you have these critters as examples it becomes obvious that building something that will take a person aloft is a simple matter of technology. All you need to be able to do is to build an efficiently shaped wing of sufficient size while keeping the weight below a certain, critical limit. Given that birds are built from fairly basic materials like bones, meat and feathers it should be clear that flying as such does not require exotic technology. 

    Calculating the size of the wing you need isn't that big a deal either. A lot of experimentation on fluid flow was done during the early to mid 19th century, so people in the late 19th century had the benefit of this. By the time of the Wright brothers it was fairly common knowledge (at least among those interested) that forces on a wing or hydrofoil were directly proportional to the square of the speed of the fluid relative to the wing, and also roughly proportional to the angle of attack (up until you hit stall). 

    If you know how much a sparrow weighs (easy to find out) and how much area its wing has (also easy) and what speed it flies at (not that hard to measure) you can use this as a basis to extrapolate from. Of course there are also lots of examples other than sparrows.

    So faith doesn't come into it. Idle curiosity combined with logic and experimentation does. You know what size wing you need. You know the forces on it (within a reasonable margin). You know what weight target you have to meet. From then on it's simply a matter of working out your structure to suit. This is basically what the Wright brother did and what aircraft designers still do.

    It doesn't require faith that something is possible. All it requires is a lack of total certainty that something is impossible, combined with the curiosity to find out the truth. This is completely different to what you are suggesting.

    What you are suggesting is more like this: the Wright brothers read the Quran and are impressed with the bit about Buraq. As a result of this they decide they have faith that donkeys can be made to fly, and on that basis they proceed to try and breed flying donkeys.

    If the Wright brothers had proceeded in that fashion they would not have been remembered as pioneers. They would have been remembered as idiots.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #613 - June 22, 2010, 04:14 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 04:00 PM
    I said: Saying that "slavery sucks" is defending it?  Who knew?  lol

    Slavery is NOT evil, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck.  Digging a ditch all day sucks crap, too, but that doesn't make it evil.

    Ok, cool. So what you're saying if is I, as a white dude, enslaved you, as a black dude, you wouldn't regard my actions as evil. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll let the NAACP know. I'm sure they'll be impressed.

    ETA: Hey another point. How many black slaves do you reckon it would be ok for me to have? Is there any limit other than my ability to feed and house them?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #614 - June 22, 2010, 04:31 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 11:21 PM
    I know a lot of women who have sex, and have had sex during the menses.  They all say that 1.) it stops while they are having sex and   2.) they cramp very badly afterward.  To me that means to friggin' do as their Guardian Lord commanded before they injure themselves.  Give Him the benefit of the doubt that He knows what He's talking about considering He made the d@mned thing.

    Your assertion isn't conclusive. I've also known women who have sex during their periods (some of them with me) and who have no problems at all. In fact they have been known to say that the old "plumber's helper" makes for a nice clean out.

    Now if a woman is getting bad cramping anyway then sure, sex may make it worse. Doesn't apply to all women though. 


    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 11:48 PM
    When they discover a direct link from menses sex to womb cancer or something, you'd better eat those words.

    Considering that there is absolutely no evidence that sex during menses leads to anything of the sort I have to wonder where you pulled this ridiculous idea from.

    You do realise that menstrual flow is mostly just skin cells and blood? Why, pray tell, would the tissues that make up the linings of a woman's cervix result in that women getting cancer of the womb? Your idea does not appear to make any sense whatsoever.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #615 - June 22, 2010, 06:55 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 10:44 PM
    The basic message of the Scripture is wonderfully clear and simple to me and only the adversary makes things needlessly complex to deliberately throw us off our precious faith.


    If you mean Monotheism - yes that is pretty clear. Though that in itself doesn't prove anything. But there is a great deal that is far less clear - in fact confusing!

    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 10:44 PM
    To me, truth stands out clear from error, and the Qur'an is that Truth standing out brilliantly.  Will you not be wise?


    What is wise about torturing people for all eternity? Roasting their skin off, but not letting them die, and replacing their skin so they may feel the agony again - over and over - without end?

    You say truth stands out from error - and you ask me to think and be wise?

    May I ask you the same thing?

    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 10:44 PM
    When you became weary in your belief, you gave into it.  Instead of holding on to your commitment to the Lord.  Have you heard of "As Above, So Below?" Your relationship with God is similar to certain earthly relationships.  Eventually the passion and fire of your new marriage will fade, and you will have moments when you wish you were single again and you can't stand her.  But you hold on to the committment you signed up for and hold the course.  In the future you will not regret that you didn't give in to the idea of divorce.   We're human.  Of course we get weary sometimes, and have doubt sometimes, etc.  But patiently persevere and keep going...

    ...reach for Him again and hold on to the course and patiently wait for His help.


    Wait patiently? Cling on to faith - tooth and nail?

    Keep 'acting' like a Muslim and just ignore what my rational mind tells me?

    Block my ears to anything that causes doubt?

    Wait... until God decides to wave his magic wand and faith will enter my heart once again.

    Will I have passed his test then?

    Is that what his ultimate concern for his creation is, then? To see who will cling on to faith - and ignore his rational mind?

    Because that quality can also be found amongst those who worship Jesus, Jehova, Vishnu, Ganesh and Guru Nanak.

    Is it the virtue of clinging on come hell or high water the reason God created us and gave us a mind - and the reason he will reward and torture?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #616 - June 22, 2010, 07:42 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 12:20 AM
    TRANSLATION:  "You refuse to abandon what you hold in favor of what we hold!  How frustrating!  You're stupid!!"

    Not exactly.  You say morality is defined as a property of your god and your god is beyond logic.  Then you say he won't do something because it isn't "fair" or "reasonable". 
    Those 2 statements are mutually exclusive. 
    Earlier you deliberately refused to understand that omniscience means that free will is impossible. You obfuscate between seeing everything and knowing everything and pretend that these are the same - despite being shown that they are not.  Again these statements are mutually exclusive. 

    As I said, I might disagree with the premises from which Al Ghazali started, but I acknowledge that at least his beliefs were internally coherent - yours are not.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #617 - June 22, 2010, 07:52 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 11:11 PM
    No, I think you missed the point.  The discharge itself is not clean although the menustration process itself is one of cleansing.    

    Now we're getting there. Logical isn't it. Now the discharge , as you put it, is only unclean if you put it somewhere it may cause a health problem. Agreed?
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #618 - June 22, 2010, 08:07 AM
    Quote from: hupla on June 22, 2010, 07:42 AM
    Not exactly.  You say morality is defined as a property of your god and your god is beyond logic.  Then you say he won't do something because it isn't "fair" or "reasonable". 
    Those 2 statements are mutually exclusive. 
    Earlier you deliberately refused to understand that omniscience means that free will is impossible. You obfuscate between seeing everything and knowing everything and pretend that these are the same - despite being shown that they are not.  Again these statements are mutually exclusive. 

    As I said, I might disagree with the premises from which Al Ghazali started, but I acknowledge that at least his beliefs were internally coherent - yours are not.



    OK maybe I'm thick but me not being omniscient doesn't that mean as far as I'm concerned free will exists? Since I don’t know where I will end up what does it matter? Am I acting under the illusion of free will?

    I understand from God's perspective, if God knows beforehand what will happen then he can not change it. Because at one point he should have known about the change, which means during the change he did not know there would be a change.

    If he is bound by time, things must happen transitionally.

    If he is outside time, then he sees all the way ahead, which is strange since things progress in time and space. But this again means he can’t change it, which removes his omnipotence.
     
    Which means in essence there is no free-will and things are predestined.

    The only way to make this work is to remove all logic and things become totally nonsensical and illogical.

    My point is though; I don’t know any of this. As far as I’m concerned my actions are continuous and transitional, I don’t know for example what I will do in 20 years. Isn’t that the point? That I should be judged based on what I did and what I knew?

    To God this whole charade is pointless. It’s all already made up, who goes to hell and who doesn’t. Somehow he created all of this life and gave life to humans for some odd years so they can know him in a temporal manner and then go to hell or heaven. It all seems so unnecessary. Also how can he change the future on Judgement Day? How can he forgive anybody? It’s already made up at one point and he has to abide by time itself.

    And somehow time started existing at one point (since we live in time and space) and things were set from the get go, time moves forward. This God existed before time, and then is still outside time while time is moving. Yet time had a beginning and then time is eternal?
     
    How can that which not exist at one point, then have a beginning and in the same instant be eternal, as in a loop?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #619 - June 22, 2010, 08:30 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 22, 2010, 04:14 AM
    ETA: Hey another point. How many black slaves do you reckon it would be ok for me to have? Is there any limit other than my ability to feed and house them?

    Hey, no worries about that. He'll even let you shag them too (as long as the dirty cows arent mensing)  Afro
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #620 - June 22, 2010, 08:34 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 12:25 AM
    I've read the others a while ago but they annoyed me for various reasons and I barely remember them.  Haykal's was the best to me.  


    Because they didn't paint him as the best of mankind, the perfect man, a mercy towards all?

    The man had sex with a 9 year old, how much more proof do you need he was a man of his time? Either that or he was a pedophile.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #621 - June 22, 2010, 08:56 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 21, 2010, 10:54 PM
     

    This is the article I was looking for when I stumbled upon this forum.  I hope it answers your question.

    http://www.al-huda.com/Article_6of33.htm

    Sorry, my internet connection went down so i couldn't respond to you, your link is very interesting, but it don't respond to my question cause it just tell that islam arrived  america before the columns did, what is possible, but in the article it says it arrived due to a great expedition of da'wa led in 1310 by the emir of maly or maybe even before in 1100, during an expedition, according that islam was created in the 600's even if it arrived in 1100 that mean god left them for about 5 hundred years without the qu'ran, anyway it is strange that after that islam was reveled not all the population knew about it directly, alot of people had to wait for many centuries after finding it, if god were smarter he would have sent mohamed in our period, so the with the modern medias the whole world could be informed directly, at least most of it.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #622 - June 22, 2010, 10:54 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 22, 2010, 08:34 AM
    Because they didn't paint him as the best of mankind, the perfect man, a mercy towards all?

    The man had sex with a 9 year old, how much more proof do you need he was a man of his time? Either that or he was a pedophile.


    It seems that Muhammad did indeed have a preference for, shall we say, younger women.

    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 16:

    Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:

    While we were returning from a Ghazwa (Holy Battle) with the Prophet, I started driving my camel fast, as it was a lazy camel A rider came behind me and pricked my camel with a spear he had with him, and then my camel started running as fast as the best camel you may see. Behold! The rider was the Prophet himself. He said, 'What makes you in such a hurry?" I replied, I am newly married "He said, "Did you marry a virgin or a matron? I replied, "A matron." He said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you may play with her and she with you?" When we were about to enter (Medina), the Prophet said, "Wait so that you may enter (Medina) at night so that the lady of unkempt hair may comb her hair and the one whose husband has been absent may shave her pubic region.

    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17:

    Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

    When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?'

    Volume 3, Book 38, Number 504:

    Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

    I was accompanying the Prophet on a journey and was riding a slow camel that was lagging behind the others. The Prophet passed by me and asked, "Who is this?" I replied, "Jabir bin 'Abdullah." He asked, "What is the matter, (why are you late)?" I replied, "I am riding a slow camel." He asked, "Do you have a stick?" I replied in the affirmative. He said, "Give it to me." When I gave it to him, he beat the camel and rebuked it. Then that camel surpassed the others thenceforth. The Prophet said, "Sell it to me." I replied, "It is (a gift) for you, O Allah's Apostle." He said, "Sell it to me. I have bought it for four Dinars (gold pieces) and you can keep on riding it till Medina." When we approached Medina, I started going (towards my house). The Prophet said, "Where are you going?" I Sad, "I have married a widow." He said, "Why have you not married a virgin to fondle with each other?" I said, "My father died and left daughters, so I decided to marry a widow (an experienced woman) (to look after them)." He said, "Well done." When we reached Medina, Allah's Apostle said, "O Bilal, pay him (the price of the camel) and give him extra money." Bilal gave me four Dinars and one Qirat extra. (A sub-narrator said): Jabir added, "The extra Qirat of Allah's Apostle never parted from me." The Qirat was always in Jabir bin 'Abdullah's purse.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #623 - June 22, 2010, 11:07 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 12:02 AM
    So...

    ...basically you are asking me to trust in my own fallible judgment instead of the infallible judgment of the omniscient creator of all of reality.  And that sounds logical to you?


    Haha! Man, you have to be using your own fallible human judgement in order to tell if the Quran is the infallible word of God or not.

    You say you don't trust your own fallible judgement completely, but in order to assert that the Quran is god's word, you have to rely on it.

    So how do you know what the Quran is if your judgement is only fallible?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #624 - June 22, 2010, 11:15 AM
    I've made that point so often to religious fundamentalists but they just don't get it. You'd think it was blindingly obvious.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #625 - June 22, 2010, 11:15 AM
    @ Rasheed

    In Islam, blood is unclean weather it's menses blood or blood coming from a wound or something... so yeah, men with bleeding wounds are also unclean and can't pray/fast till they stop the bleeding (same with women having menses).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #626 - June 22, 2010, 11:17 AM
    Ok question: why is blood unclean?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #627 - June 22, 2010, 11:19 AM
    I have no idea! I wonder so myself as I don't, personally, view blood as something disgusting. It's scary, but not disgusting.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #628 - June 22, 2010, 11:21 AM
    But let's face it no-one would go out, or meet people or do anything with blood on them, would they?

    I mean one would clean up first. Just common hygiene.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #629 - June 22, 2010, 11:22 AM
    are you saying you're disgusted by blood?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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