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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193262 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #990 - June 23, 2010, 05:01 PM

    lol

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #991 - June 23, 2010, 05:02 PM

    Nonsense.  Why wouldn't it have been?


    Not nonsense. It's called history. The first actual attempt at a compilation didn't start until 2 years after his death. Abu Bakr initiated it.

    Quote
    Nonsense.  To imply that the "Uthmanic Codex" was somehow radically different from the Qur'an that the prophet recited and that Uthman, son-in-law of the prophet, a member of his intimate inner circle and one of his closest companions, didn't know the Revelation as Revealed by the messenger is an absolutely absurd nonsense idea from the adversary himself.

    PLEASE don't bring that obvious foolishness up again to me.


    Very telling Smiley I didn't mention any of that. The devil is whispering in your ear. I suggest you make dua and ask Allah for forgiveness.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #992 - June 23, 2010, 05:02 PM

    Do I need to ask the scholars of the Torah and New Testament if I have my own copies of both?  Was He talking to me or to the illiterate Arabs of the 8th Century who did not know the Torah and New Testament by heart?


    If you read what the scholars say...it also applies as a general statement to all human beings that we shouldn't just try and interpret the scriptures in whatever way we want. (whether it be the bible, torah, or quran)

    Now considering you can't even read the quran I wouldn't consider you in the position to interpret anything.

    In fact could you please interpret the following verse (without the help of scholars)...

    "Verily, I will mislead them, and surely, I will arouse in them false desires; and certainly, I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allah." And whoever takes Shaitan (Satan) as a Wali (protector or helper) instead of Allah, has surely suffered a manifest loss."

    What does slitting the ears of cattle refer to here?

    Quote
    Let me explain something to you so you will understand the nature of our current argument from my point of view:  You are an unrepentant Transgressor of the Faith of Al-Islam who, according to the Qur'an, will experience a pain so great on the Day of Judgment, it is likened to burning in a lake of fire for all of eternity.  One of the ways you got to that point is the way in which you have studied the religion you were supposed to be following and the conclusions your particular mind decided to come to about it, and you honestly think that I, as a God-fearing Muslim, am going to take ANYTHING that you say as some kind of at-face-value truth about Islam?  I really don't care about 1.) your opinions about Islam 2.) your opinions about the "true nature" of "correct scholarship" in Islam 3.) your opinions about how I live my Islam.

    I suggest you not continue along in that way.  Everything you personally think about Islam will send me to hell, so I am not talking anything you say as a truth or something I should aspire to emulate.  


    I see what your saying "im an apostate so therefore my argument is invalid"  Roll Eyes

    I figured you might say this so thats why I showed you the evidence from ISLAMIC SCHOLARS...i guess they are also apostates that are going to hell?

    In fact, every Muslims on the planet doesn't understand the religion and are going to hell except you. And you came to this conclusion by reading an english translation of the quran that one of those hellbound scholars translated for you.  Roll Eyes

    Quote
    No, I accused you of having the traits of a bigoted Arab because you said, "I find it hilarious that you consider yourself a learned man of the scripture..." because I'm not fluent in Arabic.  Implying that I'm not allowed to read or learn anything from the interpretations at all.


    You are saying you are fit to interpret a scripture that you cannot even read let alone understand.







    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #993 - June 23, 2010, 05:04 PM

    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

    1. Let's see, Quran can be debunked on its own. Shia Islam can be debunked on its own. Shia Islam hadiths can be debunked on their own and there are many hadiths that match the Sunni hadiths.

    2. Shia Islam is Islam. Sunni sources, Shia sources? If I want to learn Islam shouldn't I also focus on Sunni sources? Or should I be an ex-shia atheist cautious of Sunni sources?  

    3. Contradictory accounts is that my fault? I find it incredible you like to point the bias thing yet never mention your self. You should have said INCLUDING MYSELF in your post. You pick and choose as well. To make Islam real, To make Muhammad not the person he seems to be. To dispel contradictions in the Quran.

    You really make a person weary Debunker seriously. I think I'm getting to the point where I'm not going to discuss religion anymore with anybody. Since you've been here how have you changed your mindset? Of things you've previously held true? And yet I'm the one with bias?


    First of all, I did say many times that I have my biases too (ask DD). Now, let me ask a simple question: do you believe Shiasm is the true Islam or Sunnism is the true Islam?

    I personally believe neither is the true Islam.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #994 - June 23, 2010, 05:05 PM

    Very telling Smiley I didn't mention any of that.


    Is this my first argument with an opponant who mentioned an "Uthmanic Codex?"

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #995 - June 23, 2010, 05:06 PM

    First of all, I did say many times that I have my biases too (ask DD). Now, let me ask a simple question: do you believe Shiasm is the true Islam or Sunnism is the true Islam?

    I personally believe neither is the true Islam.



  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #996 - June 23, 2010, 05:06 PM

    Nonsense.  Why wouldn't it have been?

    Nonsense.  To imply that the "Uthmanic Codex" was somehow radically different from the Qur'an that the prophet recited and that Uthman, son-in-law of the prophet, a member of his intimate inner circle and one of his closest companions, didn't know the Revelation as Revealed by the messenger is an absolutely absurd nonsense idea from the adversary himself.

    PLEASE don't bring that obvious foolishness up again to me.



    read the explaination of "surah al-asr" in tafsir at-tabari.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #997 - June 23, 2010, 05:07 PM

    Oh yeah? That would be reasonable, but if I were a Shia rejecting Islam, I would cite Shia sources. When I was at ShiaChat, members there believed that 98% of Sunni Hadiths/sources are forgeries. So I find it a bit odd that you'd cite Sunni Hadiths as the *true* Islam. Being an ex-Shia you should believe that Shiaism is the true Islam and attack Islam based on that.

    UNLESS now, that you're an atheist, you believe Sunnism is the true Islam? Is that what you're saying?


    I'm sorry debunker, I don't understand why it is important to cite from one reference and not another. Most people who reject Islam do so in a holistic manner, none of the sects hold any more relevance than any other so it shouldn't matter which sources are used as all those sources are just as much rejected as every other source.
    Perhaps I don't understand your point, but this seems a trivial point to me.  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #998 - June 23, 2010, 05:09 PM

    Oh yeah? That would be reasonable, but I were a Shia rejecting Islam, I would cite Shia sources.


    yeah been there done that. When talking to Shias, we have plenty of arsenal to destroy the illusion that is Shia Islam. When talking to Sunnis, we have plenty of arsenal to destroy the illusion of Sunni Islam. When talking to Catholics, we are educated enough to destroy the illusions the followers of that religion hold. When talking to Jewish religionists, we can argue on their religion's terms. When discussing with Hindus, we can talk about the ridiculousness of their religious myths too.

    Some of us do this thing you might want to try: read the books other people read, especially the "holy" books all other religionists besides just the ones you were born among, read.

    WhenI was at ShiaShat, members there believed that 98% of Sunni Hadiths/sources are forgeries. So please I find it a bit odd that you'd cite Sunni Hadiths as the *true* Islam.


    You really need to start thinking outside the narrow confines of sectarianism. What part of EXMUSLIM, as in "We did our research and found that Islam is a man made ideology" do you not understand?

    Being an ex-Shia you should believe that Shiaism is the true Islam and attack Islam based on that.


    First of all, no need to tell me what I "should" believe. Secondly, I can and WILL challenge Islam based on any and all things that followers of ISLAM itself say and do, including the quran and hadiths. Like I will challenge Christianity based on what its holy books say and what its followers do and say. I'm an atheist, not a shia atheist, or a muslim atheist. This means I am FREE to research, challenge and mock any and all ideologies that refuse/ban the search for truth about their own bases.

    UNLESS now, that you're an atheist, you believe Sunnism is the true Islam? Is that what you're saying?


    You're quite the genius, debunker.

    No. There's no true Islam because Islam is all myths and fables and syncretised stories from Judaic, Bahai, Zoroastrian and other sources. As atheist and freethinkers, we are free to challenge all forms of religions and ideologies.

    Don't know if you can digest such freedom, but that's what we live with each moment.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #999 - June 23, 2010, 05:10 PM

    First of all, I did say many times that I have my biases too (ask DD). Now, let me ask a simple question: do you believe Shiasm is the true Islam or Sunnism is the true Islam?

    I personally believe neither is the true Islam.


    Dude I'm not doing this anymore. Go in peace. Say Hi to Mohammad and Ali for me when you hang out with them in jannah. In between having sex with Houris and sipping non-alcoholic wine ask them how it feels to have sex with pre-pubescent girls will ya? I want to know if it's the same as having sex with a young boy or perhaps its slightly different?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1000 - June 23, 2010, 05:11 PM

    "I will order them to slit the ears of cattle" is clearly a reference to a (probably local) pagan practice during the time period.

    Since you are having so much trouble understanding my points, DidDug, I'm no longer going to waste my time by bothering to respond to you.  

    Bye Bye.

    Peace.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1001 - June 23, 2010, 05:11 PM

    @ Z10

    Ok, let me explain with an example. I personally believe that Jehova Witnesses is true Christianity (as per the Bible). But being biased, I cite other Chistian beliefs to attack Christianity, even though I know that JW is true Christianity.

    All Iwanted to explain to MRasheed, that while he's being accused of biasedness, so is EVERYONE else and I gave an example... that's all.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1002 - June 23, 2010, 05:12 PM

    MRasheed,
    What's your day job?  A politician? whistling2

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1003 - June 23, 2010, 05:14 PM

    "I will order them to slit the ears of cattle" is clearly a reference to a (probably local) pagan practice during the time period.

    Since you are having so much trouble understanding my points, DidDug, I'm no longer going to waste my time by bothering to respond to you.  

    Bye Bye.


    lol what was that pratice exactly. you should be able to tell me due to your amazing arabic skills let alone your knowledge of Arabia at the time of the message.




    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1004 - June 23, 2010, 05:18 PM

    @ allat

    Quote
    You're quite the genius, debunker.

    No. There's no true Islam because Islam is all myths and fables and syncretised stories from Judaic, Bahai, Zoroastrian and other sources. As atheist and freethinkers, we are free to challenge all forms of religions and ideologies.

    Don't know if you can digest such freedom, but that's what we live with each moment.


    That wasn't my question, I know that all religions (to you) are fables. But when to criticize an ideology, any ideology, one would criticize it based on what they think is the true version of that ideology... doing otherwise is bias, and i AM guilty of bias myself (for example, criticizing Christianity based on versions other than JW even though I believe JW is true Christianity as per the Bible).

    And the whole thing was to say to MRasheed that everyone is biased... absolutely everyone.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1005 - June 23, 2010, 05:20 PM

    @ Z10

    Ok, let me explain with an example. I personally believe that Jehova Witnesses is true Christianity (as per the Bible). But being biased, I cite other Chistian beliefs to attack Christianity, even though I know that JW is true Christianity.

    All Iwanted to explain to MRasheed, that while he's being accused of biasedness, so is EVERYONE else and I gave an example... that's all.


    look I agree with all the points you made regarding shia/sunni rejection ect...

    but mrasheed's bias is him alone. He disagrees with sunni Islam , shia islam, basically every single person on the planet who claims to be muslim.

    He rejects every scholar on the planet despite the fact that he cannot even read the quran and he needs those scholars to translate it for him.

    the only people who hold his views are these guys...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv1wbWGds2s

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1006 - June 23, 2010, 05:20 PM

    Could someone tell me why I should give a sh*t about the exact nature of an ancient pagan custom that will send me to hell if I follow it?  Please tell me how understanding the exact way to perform this pagan procedure/ritual will profit me as a Muslim.  Wouldn't I be better off to allow it to become extinct lest it tempt my descendants who read my notes to perform it?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1007 - June 23, 2010, 05:21 PM

    @ allat

    That wasn't my question, I know that all religions (to you) are fables. But when to criticize an ideology, any ideology, one would criticize it based on what they think is the true version of that ideology... doing otherwise is bias,


    Nope. There's no "true" version of Islam, just what Muslims say is true. That doesn't make Shia Islam "true" nor any Sunni Islam "true". My and most other ExMuslims' criticism of Islam is not based on sectarianism as we have found Islam as a whole to be fictitious 7th century nonsense.

    and i AM guilty of bias myself (for example, criticizing Christianity based on versions other than JW even though I believe JW is true Christianity as per the Bible).


    That is your bias. No need to project it on the rest of the world.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1008 - June 23, 2010, 05:22 PM

    "He rejects every scholar on the planet..." is very similar to "You are a 'Qur'an Only' Muslim."

    Both were pulled from somewhere near a certain person's sphincter.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1009 - June 23, 2010, 05:22 PM

    Could someone tell me why I should give a sh*t about the exact nature of an ancient pagan custom that will send me to hell if I follow it?  Please tell me how understanding the exact way to perform this pagan procedure/ritual will profit me as a Muslim.  Wouldn't I be better off to allow it to become extinct lest it tempt my descendants who read my notes to perform it?


    It was just a point to show that you mrasheed have no clue how to interpret the quran.











    LET ALONE READ IT!!! U ARE A TOTAL JOKE!!!

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1010 - June 23, 2010, 05:22 PM

    @ Z10

    Ok, let me explain with an example. I personally believe that Jehova Witnesses is true Christianity (as per the Bible). But being biased, I cite other Chistian beliefs to attack Christianity, even though I know that JW is true Christianity.

    All Iwanted to explain to MRasheed, that while he's being accused of biasedness, so is EVERYONE else and I gave an example... that's all.


    Ah, I think I was confused by your use of the term "true Islam". Perhaps it would be better if we use the term "correct islam" and leave its truth value aside because that's begging the question.  Wink
    If that is the case, I can see what you mean but I think you are asking for a little much if you expect non-muslims to first establish the absolute correct version of Islam first and then discuss it on those terms. For this to happen however both parties involved in the discussion have to agree upon a version of correct Islam otherwise they will talk past each other. I understand that having the same starting place is the best way to go about discussing something but do you think its really possible for a correct version of Islam to be agreed upon on this board?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1011 - June 23, 2010, 05:23 PM

    "He rejects every scholar on the planet..." is very similar to "You are a 'Qur'an Only' Muslim."

    Both were pulled from somewhere near a certain person's sphincter.


    ok mrasheed how about you tell us the scholars that you consider legit?

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1012 - June 23, 2010, 05:25 PM

    All scholars are "legit."  It is up to each person to understand the Message on their own terms.  The problems come from leaning on other people (a scholarly elite class or priesthood) to spoon feed it to you while you act like a mindless sheep instead of using your mental faculties yourself.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1013 - June 23, 2010, 05:27 PM

    Ah, I think I was confused by your use of the term "true Islam". Perhaps it would be better if we use the term "correct islam" and leave its truth value aside because that's begging the question.  Wink
    If that is the case, I can see what you mean but I think you are asking for a little much if you expect non-muslims to first establish the absolute correct version of Islam first and then discuss it on those terms. For this to happen however both parties involved in the discussion have to agree upon a version of correct Islam otherwise they will talk past each other. I understand that having the same starting place is the best way to go about discussing something but do you think its really possible for a correct version of Islam to be agreed upon on this board?


    on this or any other board, online or offline. everyone follows their own biases. Even within say Sunni sources themesleves, Sunnis pick and choose. So, why deny MRasheed his right to bias, when everyone is biased?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1014 - June 23, 2010, 05:28 PM

    All scholars are "legit."  It is up to each person to understand the Message on their own terms.


    ok so why did you consider the scholars I posted to be "shit". Your opinion contradicts every scholar on earth.

    just give me one name please....

    just one name

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1015 - June 23, 2010, 05:28 PM

    Tell me: the ancient Muslim scholar who proclaimed the world was flat.

    Could he speak fluent Arabic and read the Qur'an in its original state?

    The head imam in Saudi Arabia declared that based on the Qur'an, the world is flat - in 1993.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1016 - June 23, 2010, 05:29 PM

    All scholars are "legit."  It is up to each person to understand the Message on their own terms.  The problems come from leaning on other people (a scholarly elite class or priesthood) to spoon feed it to you while you act like a mindless sheep instead of using your mental faculties yourself.


    so are you a mindless sheep for reading an english translation of the quran?

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1017 - June 23, 2010, 05:29 PM

    Are you saying that it's impossible to establish a correct version of Islam debunker?
    If that is the case then all biases are welcome  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1018 - June 23, 2010, 05:29 PM

    Quote
    Nope. There's no "true" version of Islam, just what Muslims say is true. That doesn't make Shia Islam "true" nor any Sunni Islam "true". My and most other ExMuslims' criticism of Islam is not based on sectarianism as we have found Islam as a whole to be fictitious 7th century nonsense.


    I guess both Musims AND non-Muslims disagree with you.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1019 - June 23, 2010, 05:30 PM

    I guess both Musims AND non-Muslims disagree with you.


     Roll Eyes

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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