The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth

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- TheRationalizer
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The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
OP - June 23, 2010, 05:51 PM

Hi all

Seeing as I have recently created a video covering the geocentric universe described in the Quran I thought I might turn next to the subject with the 2nd most number of comments; and that is that the Quran describes a flat Earth.

One of the most telling phrases I find is that the heavens were raised up and are like a canopy. Obviously if the Earth is flat you'd need to raise them up, but the reality is that we are surrounded by "the heavens".

First I'd like to ask what word is used here for spread?
88:16 - And silken carpets spread.
I can then check if it is the same word as used for any of the verses below relating to what was done to the Earth.

Here are a list of verses I have earmarked and a brief description of why:

2:22 - Earth spread like a carpet. Heavens are a canopy raised up.
7:54 - Night is a veil
Does this literally mean like a cloth or something you draw over something else?

13:2 - Raised up the heavens.
Does this say "AS you can see" or "THAT you can see"? It should say there are NO supports but it seems to say there are no VISIBLE supports, implying invisible pillars. Am I wrong?

13:3 - spread out the earth
15:19 - spread out
16:15 - mountains stop the ground from shaking
If the Earth is flat it might flap in strong winds, so we need "paper weights"

18:47 - Without mountains the earth would be flat
18:86 - Setting place of the Sun
18:90 - Rising place of the sun
20:53 - carpet
21:31 - mountains stop the earth shaking
21:32 - heavens are a canopy
21:104 - roll up the heavens like a scroll
This would only be possible if the heavens were flat, like a veil.

39:67 - heavens rolled
40:64 - heavens are a canopy
43:10 - carpet
43:38 - Distance between the two XXX is the greatest possible distance
Does this say "Two easts", "East and West", or "The two horizons". Each translation I have is different.

50:7 - spread out
51:48 - Spread out the Earth
52:5 - canopy raised high
55:10 - spread out
67:5 - stars are so close they can be used as missiles to chase away devils
71:19 - carpet
78:6 - even expanse
78:7 - mountains as pegs
78:10 - night is a covering
79:27+28 - heaven is a raised canopy
79:30 - spread
84:3 - Spread out
86:11 - lowest heaven has stars and gives rain
88:18 - heaven raised
88:20 - spread out
91:4 - night covers the sun (like a blanket / veil?)
91:6 - expanse
92:1 - night covers day (like a blanket / veil?)

Is there anything I have missed (Quran only, no Hadith)?

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- ateapotist
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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #1 - June 23, 2010, 06:27 PM

Quote
First I'd like to ask what word is used here for spread?
88:16 - And silken carpets spread.

http://www.islamicity.com/MOSQUE/ARABICSCRIPT/AYAT/88/88_16.htm

My good friend, Google Translate, tells me that مَبْثُوثَةٌ [mabthoothatun] means 'scattered', but wait for Hassan's proper translation.

I got the arabic text from this website: http://quran.al-islam.org/

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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #2 - June 23, 2010, 07:08 PM

Quote from: ateapotist on June 23, 2010, 06:27 PM
but wait for Hassan's proper translation.

Well, anyone who speaks Arabic will do :-)

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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #3 - June 23, 2010, 07:20 PM

Early Muslims believed the earth to be flat the opinion only changed around the year 1200. Christians and jews also believed this aswell(along with the geocentric universe)

They all interpreted the divine scriptures revealed by "allah" in the same manner

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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #4 - June 23, 2010, 08:19 PM

Here's the bit from my blog on the same subject if it helps

Quote
In 1993, the supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, Sheik Abdel-Aziz ibn Baaz, issued a edict, or fatwah, declaring that the world is flat.

Despite the Qur'an describing a flat earth we find Muslims today adamant that the Qur'an portrays an ostrich-egg shaped one (although this claim is made by what I call “text mAssaging”). Some 20 years ago the very same people said it meant spherical, and 1400 years ago some claimed it meant flat – note the evolving definition of the word ‘daha’ to fit with our understanding of science at the time!

The word Daha that is used actually means 'to spread out/flatten.'

As science has proved this to be wrong, some muslims have managed to miraculously circumvent this definition and say the Quran says otherwise. If tomorrow the earth was proved to be flat, I am sure they would revert back to the original & correct definition of the word “Daha”. To underscore this point, there was a time when Muslims clerics would establish fatwa’s against those claiming the earth to be spherical.

Other religions such as Christianity also make claims which their followers say can only inspired by “divine” knowledge e.g. the Bible does say the earth is round. Without wishing to get involved to deeply about these claims, they are all wrong in any case. The earth is in fact oblate shaped (i.e. watermelon shaped, a sphere with flatter ends at the poles).

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- TheRationalizer
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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #5 - June 24, 2010, 09:33 AM

Quote from: IsLame on June 23, 2010, 08:19 PM
Here's the bit from my blog on the same subject if it helps

"The word Daha that is used actually means 'to spread out/flatten.'"

Yeah, don't you just love that one? It goes something like this

1: The word used is XY
2: XY is rooted in the word X
3: XZ is also rooted in the word X
4: XZ is the place where ostriches lay their eggs
5: Therefore XY is the same shape as an Ostrich egg

Even though it's completely illogical, and XZ doesn't mean "ostrich egg" but "flat ground on which the ostrich lays its eggs" people will actually accept crap like this.

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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #6 - June 24, 2010, 09:51 AM

Hey Rationalizer,

let me tell you where i think that the "spread out earth" comes from.

As we know, muhammad had a lot of contact with jews, so what we can do is to investigate the jewish creation story first ;-). You find it in the bible, right at the beginning of the first book.

By that story, there was first water and gods spirit was hovering above the water. Then god separated it into heaven and earth.

Quote
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so

Afterwards the term "earth" appears a second time:

Quote
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth;

So what we see here is that - by that story - the word "earth" is actually used for the dry land which appears when the waters gather on certain places. Of course this has nothing to do with our concept of a round earth as we have it today.

Now lets go to the quran: Muhammad copied a lot of those stories from the jews - and he describes the earth in contradictory verses: One time,
"earth and heaven" have been separated at the beginning. In another verse, the earth was created first, and then the heavens - and in another verse, the heavens were created and then the earth was "spread out".

All this makes a lot of sense if you think about the word "earth" in the context of the previous scriptures: "Earth" is first used as complement to "heaven" and later as the dry earth, which could be "spread out" on the waters.

What do you think of that?

UG
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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #7 - June 24, 2010, 10:00 AM

Hi UG

I was aware of the Bible creation story, someone on YouTube pointed it out to me with regards to the "Two seas which do not mix" miracle*.

Hadn't thought of the land being spread out on the waters, but the biblical account appears to me that the Earth water was gathered together in order to expose the land rather than the land being spread out on top of the water.

*May not include events or information of a miraculous kind.

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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #8 - June 24, 2010, 10:40 AM

You are right, there is a difference between the earth being "spread out" and waters gathering on certain places, showing dry lands called "earth".

However, we see that the biblical story uses the word earth in two meaning:

1. "heavens and earth..."
2. "earth as the dry land"

In the quran there is the problem that - if you assume only one meaning - you get a contradiction regarding whether heaven or earth was created first. Of course i don't have any problems with an old book having contradictions ;-). However, since the quran had only one author it seems unlikely to me that one single author cannot even tell an ordering of creation without contradiction. That would simply be too stupid - even for a man in the desert. You would also maybe get a contradiction regarding the creation of the earth: Was the earth separated from the haven? Or was it spread out? Or both (how???)? Some tafsirs however explain that the earth was first created and afterwards spread out ;-).

But as i explained: Under the assumption that it is unlikely that a single author gets such basic things wrong, i would assume that the word for earth is used in two meanings: First, "heaven and earth" were separated and then the "earth" was spread on the water. I also read tafsirs which explain, that this really means "spread it on the water".

UG
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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #9 - June 24, 2010, 10:53 AM

I think this is more of an Earth creation subject rather than a flat Earth subject

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Re: The Quran - Muhammad's flat Earth
Reply #10 - June 24, 2010, 01:09 PM

isnt the earth also like a bed?

Sura Taha (20:53)

Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation.

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