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Theme Changer

 Topic: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?

 (Read 24141 times)
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  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #150 - July 12, 2010, 07:34 PM

    So Christianity is harmless?

    Are you watching Channel 4 at the moment?  If not see if you can get "Dispatches - Africa's last taboo" on replay or on youtube later.

    It's all about Christian preachers preaching hatred for homosexuals, homosexuals going to prison, and mobs of Christians calling for homosexuals to be burned to death.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #151 - July 13, 2010, 04:43 AM

    And if you hadn't included most of what you had written I wouldn't have sworn you were and ignorant bigot.


    Ah touche!

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #152 - July 13, 2010, 05:06 AM

    So Christianity is harmless?


    If we accept as "Christian" every religious sect that describes itself as such then Christianity is certainly NOT harmless.

    Quote
    It's all about Christian preachers preaching hatred for homosexuals, homosexuals going to prison, and mobs of Christians calling for homosexuals to be burned to death.


    And suppose one of those Christian preachers did as Muhammad did: claimed his hateful doctrines had been "handed down" to him from heaven and the total "revelation" subsequently bound together by his followers as a "holy book". Would you say this "holy" book could be plausiblly "interpreted" peacefully because it also contained some "nice" passages like "be kind to your parents"?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #153 - July 13, 2010, 06:23 AM

    If we accept as "Christian" every religious sect that describes itself as such then Christianity is certainly NOT harmless.


    Exactly the same for Islam, and Muslims will agree with the statement too.

    And suppose one of those Christian preachers did as Muhammad did: claimed his hateful doctrines had been "handed down" to him from heaven and the total "revelation" subsequently bound together by his followers as a "holy book". Would you say this "holy" book could be plausiblly "interpreted" peacefully because it also contained some "nice" passages like "be kind to your parents"?


    As I keep repeating, there are many ways a Muslim can delude themself into believing X is Y if that is what they wish to believe.  Just as you seem to believe that a man (Paul) has the authority to nullify what people believe to be god's laws without even a shred of evidence for his authority.  Not all xtian sects believe in that, many still believe in the old testament, many are young-Earth-creationists.

    Why do you find it so hard to accept that many people dismiss the ugly parts of Islam?  Just because YOU can't delude yourself on this subject doesn't mean others are incapable too!

    You ARE a Christian right?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #154 - July 13, 2010, 06:45 AM

    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Exactly the same for Islam, and Muslims will agree with the statement too.


    Agree with what statement?

    Quote
    As I keep repeating, there are many ways a Muslim can delude themself into believing X is Y if that is what they wish to believe.


    And as I keep repeating, they can present no plausible case to the dispassionate observer that in doing so they are being faithful to the fundamental tenets of the religion they profess to be following. And, to repeat, such self-delusion by some - or even most - Muslims does not provide any sound basis for a "reformed" deshariaized, dejihadized Islam. No more than does an "Islam" whose "moderation" is based on Muslim ignorance of basic Islamic texts.

    Quote
    Just as you seem to believe that a man (Paul) has the authority to nullify what people believe to be god's laws without even a shred of evidence for his authority.


    I do not accept Paul's authority to do anything whatsoever. My point is that most Christians DO accept his "divine mandate" and can plausibly argue that they are not going against the fundamental tenets of their faith by their non-adeherence to Mosaic law. Muslims by contrast can do no such thing vis a vis sharia.

    Quote
    Why do you find it so hard to accept that many people dismiss the ugly parts of Islam? Just because YOU can't delude yourself on this subject doesn't mean others are incapable too!


    What do you mean I am "incapable" of "dismissing" the ugly parts of Islam? Those "ugly parts" are there.  Why should I "delude" myself they do not have an ongoing applicability? I am not a Muslim desperately seeking to cling to his religion.

    Quote
    You ARE a Christian right?


    How can I be a "Christian" if I reject the fundamental tenets of Christianity like the divinity and resurrection of a long-dead Jew called Jesus?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #155 - July 13, 2010, 07:58 AM

    Agree with what statement?


    That if everyone who identified themself as (religion of choice) was really (religion of choice) then (religion of choice) would be a harmful religion.


    And as I keep repeating, they can present no plausible case to the dispassionate observer that in doing so they are being faithful to the fundamental tenets of the religion they profess to be following.


    So what?  They are able to convince THEMSELF.  They don't have to convince YOU!  That's the whole point.  It doesn't matter how they justify it, they do.  It doesn't matter if it is a credible justification to you, it only needs to sit well with them.  They don't care what you think, they do what they like!

    Just as people who follow St Paul cannot justify to me that there are being faithful to the fundamental tenets of the religion they profess to follow, but do they give a damn what I think? No!  They do it anyway.

    I repeat: Are you a Christian?


    What do you mean I am "incapable" of "dismissing" the ugly parts of Islam? Those "ugly parts" are there.  Why should I "delude" myself they do not have an ongoing applicability? I am not a Muslim desperately seeking to cling to his religion.


    I am not telling you that you must delude yourself that they do not exist.  What I am telling you is that many Muslims DO convince themselves that they don't need to go out killing non-Muslims wherever they find them.  Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant, how they do it is irrelevant, the point is (and always has been) that they DO.

    How can I be a "Christian" if I reject the fundamental tenets of Christianity like the divinity and resurrection of a long-dead Jew called Jesus?


    There have been Christians who reject divinity and resurrection, that's where Muhammad probably got it from - the gnostics.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #156 - July 13, 2010, 02:32 PM

    One can objectively see that certain belief systems require the fulfilment of certain minimum requirements to seriously qualify an individual for membership. Therefore a statement like "I am a Muslim atheist" can be objectively dismissed as illogical nonsense.

    I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Granted Islam does not lend itself quite as easily or fully to atheism as Christianity does but to be truly Muslim (or to be a true believer) is sometimes darn close or even completely indistinguishable from an authentic atheist position.
       
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #157 - July 13, 2010, 04:14 PM

    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    That if everyone who identified themself as (religion of choice) was really (religion of choice) then (religion of choice) would be a harmful religion.


    And most most Muslims would agree with this statement. So what is the relevence of this?



    Quote
    So what?  They are able to convince THEMSELF.  They don't have to convince YOU!That's the whole point.  It doesn't matter how they justify it, they do.  It doesn't matter if it is a credible justification to you,it only needs to sit well with them.  They don't care what you think, they do what they like!


    The reality is, as the campaign under discussion here testifies, countless (apparently) self-deluding/ignorant Muslims clearly DO care about what we non-Muslims think about Islam and are prepared to spend a great deal of time and effort trying to "cure" us of our supposed "misconceptions" - which are in fact simply the result of the behavior of self-proclaimed "Muslims" and the nature of self proclaimed "Islamic" states. Google the term "western misconceptions about Islam" and see just how much Muslims care about our view of Islam. Google also : "judge an entire religion by the actions of a few". We non-Muslims are told that to do this is unwise. So how should we "judge" Islam? The frequent answer, given by Muslims THEMSELVES, is to study the Koran. Which I have done and don't find that it espouses a message of peace, love, feminism and the brotherhood of all humans. If self-deluding/ignorant Muslims are not content to leave me and other non-Muslims with our "misconceptions" why should we leave them with theirs?


    Quote
    Just as people who follow St Paul cannot justify to me that there are being faithful to the fundamental tenets of the religion they profess to follow, but do they give a damn what I think? No!


    And the relevence of this is?

    Quote
    I repeat: Are you a Christian?


    No I am not, for the reasons I have given above which themselves constitute a clear enough answer. But if I had been so what?


    Quote
    There have been Christians who reject divinity and resurrection, that's where Muhammad probably got it from - the gnostics.


    Good point.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #158 - July 13, 2010, 04:17 PM

    Quote from: Kenan
    I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Granted Islam does not lend itself quite as easily or fully to atheism as Christianity does


    How exactly does Christianity - a religion based on belief in a god - "lend itself" to atheism - the denial of the existence of a god/gods?


    Quote
    but to be truly Muslim (or to be a true believer) is sometimes darn close or even completely indistinguishable from an authentic atheist position.


    Please explain your reasoning.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #159 - July 13, 2010, 04:18 PM

    And most most Muslims would agree with this statement. So what is the relevence of this?


    The point is that singling out Islam is irrelevant.  You say that the Quran and Islam are "special", but they are no different from Christianity.



    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #160 - July 13, 2010, 04:29 PM

    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    The point is that singling out Islam is irrelevant.


    Islam has singled ITSELF out. It is the repeated, violent fanatical behavior of Muslims the world over that has turned the spotlight on Islam in particular.

    Quote
    You say that the Quran and Islam are "special", but they are no different from Christianity.


    I can think of one fundamental difference straight away. Jesus prevented a party of Jews from stoning an adultereress to death. Muhammad ORDERED a party of Jews to stone some adulterers to death. That is why Islam has so far found it impossible to banish such OT barbarities to the trash can of history.

     

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #161 - July 13, 2010, 05:33 PM

    Can't you at least explain how the Koranic commandment to flog adulterers can be interpreted "non-literally"? Here it is:

    the adulteress and the adulterer, flog each of them,  a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement. (24:2)



    Oh, this is quite a straightforward thing in Sufism (a branch of Islam that specialises in what you might call "non-literal" interpretation, but that considers itself to be the MOST literal of all interpretations).

    As the (literalist) apologists occasionally like to bring up --  it is implicit that four witnesses should be produced before the verdict of adultery is laid down. This is often taken to be a sort of defense in that it a rather difficult thing to witness.

    But speaking as a Sufi, my whole GOAL in life is to produce these four witnesses.

    In Sufism, the human self/soul is considered to be divided into four "levels" of reality: nafs (ordinary, literal life), qalb (kind of like a self-reflective ego), ruh (a sort of aspect of divine breath running through us all) and the sirr (the secret self that ties us back to the ultimate meaning of life). These levels are tied to the rivers of water, milk, wine and honey. They are also tied to the "four wives" that the Qur'an says are possible in marriage. In modern computer science, we'd call them running programs, models, metamodels and meta-metamodels. There's lots of ways of looking at them, but maybe just think of them as 1) your normal daily life of attachments, 2) the language games (cultural, historical, personal) that provide the rules and structure for your normal life, 3) the overarching meaning behind THOSE games and 4) something secret Truth that is internal to you, structuring 1-3).

    The adulteress occurs as an archetype throughout the Bible and Quran -- she represents an aspect of the self that is unfaithful to God, essentially. The Kabbalists called her Lilith. The adulterer is also an archetype -- he represents a sort of false God -- the kind of God that would tell people to "LITERALLY" stone and hurt people in his name. He is known as Samael in Kabbalah, as Iblis in Quran, as the Demiurge in Gnosticism. Unfaithfulness to God commits adultery with this Demiurge -- by turning away from Love and instead fixating on a particular power regime (fixation is what psychoanalysis would call it, idolatry is what it is known as in Qur'an). This is precisely what happens in any kind of fascist discourse (political or personal): some idol sets itself up as the "be all and end all" and our inner adulteress sleeps with him. It's what happened to a lot of people in Nazi Germany with Hitler as Demiurge. And yes, it has happened to quite a number of people in the culture of Islam, setting up a false image of Allah as an "Despotic Father figure" Demiurge.

    So yes, 100 lashes are in order, withholding mercy, as the verses order. What happens when these lashes are inflicted is what the Sufis call "fana" -- the dissolution of the adulteress/adulterer complex -- the dissolution of internal faithlessness and internal fascism of the self -- and the emergence of the 4 witnesses. The 4 witnesses emerge as the "real you", purged of the faithlessness and fascism.

    I could explain the meaning of "why 100" lashes -- that gets into Arab numerology, but I've probably bored you by now.

    Anyway -- this is standard stuff in my part of the world. Kabbalists have an almost identical reading of the stoning law in Judaism. One of their main sources, the Zohar, has this amazing reading of the four letters of the name YHWH moving together to assert the unity of God and, in doing so, literally throwing stones made of the letter "Y" onto Samael and Lilith. It's pretty trippy stuff.

    Incidentally, this is very tangential, but Kabbalist Leonard Cohen has a great song about how the witnessing of the lower levels relates to the upper, secret level of the soul called "In My Secret Life":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyMC5MJYOZ8
    There's a little bit of stuff about the self (actually the second level of the self) and inner adultery being "turned" in his earlier song "Last year's man":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW3_j6SoHXM

    The point of Sufism is to discover our four witnesses and destroy the adultery within ourselves. If this helps more, I'm perfectly happy for folk just to listen to Cohen if they can't understand what's going on in the Qur'an. Actually, what I am saying is very straightforward and obvious, if certain assumptions about the Qur'an (and life) are abandoned -- specifically, the assumption the human body and self is what it appears to be -- and I freely admit a lot of Muslims are not prepared to do that (despite claims to the contrary).

    Pleased to meet you, DH, by the way, I think we haven't met before. Hope you guessed my name.

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor (chairman of the Verandah Vanguard, the Tailor of the True Garment of Prayer, caller of the Cosmic Athan, the Renewer of the Body's True Science, the perfume sniffing, womanizing Sheikh of Submission, the Nerd of Namaz and the Doctor of the Deen.)

    PS: If you require more detail regarding lashings, see here:
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/lashings-and-the-four-witnesses/

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #162 - July 13, 2010, 05:54 PM

    I could explain the meaning of "why 100" lashes -- that gets into Arab numerology, but I've probably bored you by now.


    Just out of curiosity, what is the meaning of '100 lashes?'
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #163 - July 13, 2010, 06:27 PM

    Just out of curiosity, what is the meaning of '100 lashes?'


    Really quickly: 100 is understood in alchemy as standing for the skull or external head of personhood, connected to a neck. This configuration is known as "the eye of the needle", meaning self-reflection, basically. To be lashed by self-reflection leads us to know "who we are" (the four witnesses).

    We can go on ... 80 lashes (punishment for slander) is understood in alchemy as standing for the mouth. The mouth of truth passes over the slanderer, correcting them (from speaking falsehood of any kind).

    It's a kind of a little black humoured joke between God and that great ironist's "in crowd" Tongue

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #164 - July 13, 2010, 06:53 PM

    I see.

    It's funny when you look at some verses of the Qur'an from a non-literalist perspective and you can then derive some rather enlightening concepts from them.

    These verses are some that I find to be particularly poignant.

    [13:28]
    Those who believe and whose hearts have rest in the remembrance of Allah. Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest!

    [10:62]
    Assuredly God's friends, no fear shall befall them, neither shall they grieve.

    [9:111]
    Indeed God has purchased from the believers their lives and their possessions, so that theirs will be Paradise...
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #165 - July 13, 2010, 07:07 PM

    I am duty bound at this point to reiterate my standard Sufi position that there is no "inner" and "outer" meaning to any of the signs of life, including the signs of the Qur'an : there is, effectively, only a surface meaning. So I don't consider myself a non-literalist -- but, rather, a literalist. I have, for example, really been lashed for adultery -- but the lashes were of a different rope from the one we imagine.

    All horror and violence is imaginary -- in the sense that someone imagines power to be structured in a certain way, fixates on a particular power relationship -- and tries to fix it forever by fascism against others (usually violent).

    If everyone in Iran agreed that the whip was imaginary, an illusory fixation on the State's power over the individual (everyone, including the guy holding the whip) -- for example, through either a heavy dose of Sufi fana or maybe just LSD in the water supplies -- then there'd be no violence (because the guy holding the whip wouldn't know what to do with it).

    The only way for that to happen is for the real whip to come down upon the adulterer and adulteress within (because LSD in the water supplies will only be temporary in effect).

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #166 - July 13, 2010, 07:08 PM

    How exactly does Christianity - a religion based on belief in a god - "lend itself" to atheism - the denial of the existence of a god/gods?


    Please explain your reasoning.

    Christianity is essentially atheism. Unfortunately I am really busy atm, but I will explain both points in detail tomorrow.
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #167 - July 14, 2010, 05:38 AM

    Quote from: The tailor
    Oh, this is quite a straightforward thing in Sufism (a branch of Islam that specialises in what you might call "non-literal" interpretation, but that considers itself to be the MOST literal of all interpretations).


    As you will know, a wide range of doctrines exist under the umbrella of "sufism", from highly heterodox ones like yours to highly orthodox ones. As you say, interpretations of the Koran like the ones you have promulgated above are never going to be accepted by the vast majority of devout orthodox Muslims who take the hell so vividly described in the Koran at face value. If you engage in a form of Dawah, I do hope you confine your efforts to existing Muslims and don't go after non-Muslims.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #168 - July 14, 2010, 12:21 PM

    Peace DH,

    As you will know, a wide range of doctrines exist under the umbrella of "sufism", from highly heterodox ones like yours to highly orthodox ones. As you say, interpretations of the Koran like the ones you have promulgated above are never going to be accepted by the vast majority of devout orthodox Muslims who take the hell so vividly described in the Koran at face value.


    Sure, this has been confirmed for me Smiley I don't mind this situation, though of course I find it personally sad.

    If you engage in a form of Dawah, I do hope you confine your efforts to existing Muslims and don't go after non-Muslims.


    Out of interest, why no non-Muslims? (Although actually for me da'wah comes down to simply being creative and charitable -- presenting things that I find beautiful -- rather than "converting" anyone to my way of reading.)

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #169 - July 14, 2010, 01:27 PM

    Sure, this has been confirmed for me Smiley I don't mind this situation, though of course I find it personally sad.


    I'm not entirely sure how something can make you said but you don't mind it.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #170 - July 14, 2010, 02:44 PM

    How exactly does Christianity - a religion based on belief in a god - "lend itself" to atheism - the denial of the existence of a god/gods?


    First of all the very word you are using to describe atheism is problematic. “Denial.” Atheism as denial of the existence of a god/gods. Do you understand what denial implies? How it is defined in psychiatry/psychoanalysis? Such atheism is a stance of those who either “rebel” against God or long for god but cannot find him. One simply cannot choose atheism because as soon as one chooses one already believes.

    Consequently a true atheist does not choose atheism because for a true atheist the very question of the existence of god is irrelevant. That is to say that for a true atheist god is completely irrelevant.

    To understand why Christianity is essentially atheism one has to look into the very core of Christianity. Judaism is a religion of lineage, of genealogy, a religion of successive generations.
    This is important because Judaism is the precursor of Christianity. Because of that when in Christianity the Son dies on the cross the Father also dies. “Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?” - the very hope in the existence of a father figure dies with him. There is nobody one can address in prayer, there is nobody to judge us, there is nobody out there to hear our pleads, there is no Big Other out there - we are on our own. And this is the source of a true morality. The fact that one is not afraid of Hell nor one seeks the pleasures of Heaven. One simply does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do - this stance nowadays (sadly) mostly survives in atheism.

    On the other hand hard core (despotic) religiosity survives and can be found in most unlikely sources such as humanism or even stalinism and its faith in historical necessity, in inexorable laws of historical progress. In that aspect stalinism is truly religious.

    The atheistic core of Christianity can be saved only if the formal outer shell of its institution and its prevalent religious experience is discarded. Or as “my” favorite philosopher would say: “In order to preserve its hidden treasure Christianity has to sacrifice itself - like the Christ that had to die so that Christianity could be born.”

    Amen to that.

    Btw the reason why I said that to be truly Muslim (or to be a true believer) is sometimes darn close or even completely indistinguishable from an authentic atheist position can for example be found  here:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9261.msg236342#msg236342


    If you engage in a form of Dawah, I do hope you confine your efforts to existing Muslims and don't go after non-Muslims.

    Frankly I hope that he "goes" after as many people as possible. God knows we need as much of this sort of da'wah as we can get.
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #171 - July 15, 2010, 05:44 AM

    Quote from: Mr X
    Out of interest, why no non-Muslims?


    One word will suffice.

    INDONESIA: where the population was seemingly initially persuaded to adopt a "Muslim" identity by sufi missionaries who weren't too insistent on the erstwhile Hindu-Buddhists/animists shedding a wide range of pre-Islamic beliefs and practices. Look at the place now.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #172 - July 30, 2010, 10:41 AM

    God, I fucking despise Mehdi Hassan. The guy says 71% of men in a survey support criminalizing homosexuality and he goes on to say you don't judge a people by an extremist minority. Does that guy know how to count?
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #173 - July 30, 2010, 10:48 AM

    God, I fucking despise Mehdi Hassan. The guy says 71% of men in a survey support criminalizing homosexuality and he goes on to say you don't judge a people by an extremist minority. Does that guy know how to count?


    I expect he says it's a minority because it was a survey and not a referendum.  So although 71% of people were homophobic, that's 71% of a minority.  Someone on this forum made the same argument recently, although I suspect they wouldn't use the same (crap) argument in this case because they want to make Islam look as bad as possible.

    He also said that it's the same opinion held by most people in English pubs.  Even if that is the case (he didn't cite a source) then they do so because they have reached that conclusion on an individual basis and are therefore individually to blame, whereas in the survey that was cited the phobia came from their religion so therefore the religion is to blame.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #174 - July 30, 2010, 11:05 AM

    I disagree. In both cases the people make individual choices but are heavily influenced and sometimes repressed by their respective cultures. Hooligan/sports culture or whatever is quite homophobic.
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #175 - July 30, 2010, 11:18 AM

    I disagree. In both cases the people make individual choices but are heavily influenced and sometimes repressed by their respective cultures. Hooligan/sports culture or whatever is quite homophobic.


    Sure they make individual decisions.  However my point was that individuals in a pub came to their irrational homophobic opinions for individual reasons and are therefore individually to blame, whereas the religious people came to theirs through their religion and so there is a common source for the blame.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #176 - July 30, 2010, 11:20 AM

    Wouldn't you say sports culture is "to blame" as well?
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #177 - July 30, 2010, 11:21 AM

    Wouldn't you say sports culture is to blame as well?


    No, because the influence there is just other people, so it is simply a learned behaviour - whereas in a religion it is written down as an official doctrine.

    It's not like hating queers is part of the off-side rule Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #178 - July 30, 2010, 11:41 AM

    Lol.

    I don't think cultures need to have an "official doctrine" for them to be repressive. All cultures heavily influence thought.
  • Re: Can you attend "The Big Question" Sunday Morn Birmingham?
     Reply #179 - July 30, 2010, 11:54 AM

    Lol.

    I don't think cultures need to have an "official doctrine" for them to be repressive. All cultures heavily influence thought.


    Sure they do, but that doesn't make football the culprit but the people who follow football - and then it's not 100% of the people.  Whereas in a religion the religious book explicitly states that hommers are an abomination so it is easy to identify the common root.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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