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Theme Changer

 Topic: Evolution and Morality

 (Read 48362 times)
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  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #210 - June 30, 2010, 11:47 AM

    @abuyunus2,
    I have a lot to disagree with in your post but let me start with this:
    Erm, why is that so? what does the fact that are a product of evolution has to do with how we form our morality?

    What do you mean according to evolution? is evolution a moral framework? is it an ethical theory? how is your statement different from saying  "according to gravity we should jump from the rooftop of tall buildings" or "according to the germ theory we should inject ourselves with microbes"?


    I think i'm worse at explaining things than DigDug, lol. No-one is suggesting for a second that evolution is or should be a moral framework or an ethical theory for a second. The argument is that Evolution theory claims to be completely responsible for the make-up of humans - everything we are was due to evolution. Hence our 'morals' were also shaped by evolution. Whether we like it or not the primary goal of evolution is to propagate our genes - hence if evolution did completely shape our morals then any act that supports the propagation of our genes should be deemed morally a good act *if* we were solely the product of evolution. However, in reality, humans are obviously quite different to this - the propagation of our genes is far from a priority to us. We care much more about doing good, being truthful, being just, merciful, compassionate etc. sometimes even to the extent where these things prevent the propagation of our genes in both the smaller and larger picture.

    The argument is not that evolution should be some sort of moral framework - the question being asked is whether we are more than just a product of evolution.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #211 - June 30, 2010, 11:50 AM

    We care much more about doing good, being just, merciful, compassionate etc. sometimes even to the extent where these things prevent the propagation of our genes in both the smaller and larger picture.

    That's a pretty shallow analysis, really. Surely you must be aware that there are sound arguments for why these traits would, in fact, result in better chances of gene transmission.

    That's not the same as saying those arguments are 100% certain and irrefutable, but you can't really pretend they don't exist.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #212 - June 30, 2010, 11:56 AM

    There are arguments - as to how sound they are - that's very debatable to say the least. Of course evolutionists had to come up with some arguments to try and explain the discrepency - I have to say personally, so far, I find them quite weak.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #213 - June 30, 2010, 11:59 AM

    How about you come with some explanations Smiley

    AY - God made it all.

    BD - Cheers mate I will just go back to what I was doing because I'm just as wise now as I was before I asked you the question.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #214 - June 30, 2010, 12:05 PM

    How about you kiss my butt?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #215 - June 30, 2010, 12:05 PM

    Not only do men rape women for their nature is designed to propagate its genes and manhood but in every facet of corporal life we see men raining on women like a hail storm of misogynists. Man killed Goddess and let The Male Phallic God reign. And now He suffers under the shadow of the obelisk which he has constructed.

    It is within the fields of science to point to man's nature. And it is indeed a predatory one. A virtuoso of violence he has ravished fields and scores of women to spread his seed. A burned rose garden. Petals lying scattered as the hove of the horses of Khan's army push on and push in on the sacred vicinity of women's most sacred sacreds.

    It is in man's nature to rape. Even the act of sex (ref. Andrea Dworkin) is one of pain and humiliation. Each thrust, each gasp, is one step close to domination. Even as women progress in the word they wear the shoulder straps of men's suits. Even their sex games adhere to the man-symbol (male genitalia).

    Man is the ultimate weapon. The carnivores of carnivores.

    "They are like rats, and men's minds are like traps; prejudices get in easily" - Friedrich  Jacobi




    DD of course is not condoning rape or forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to for a second. I think what he is trying to get at is that if Evolution is responsible for all that humans are then spreading and propagating our genes should be our primary goal - in this case no-one should view what Ghengis Khan did as wrong - in fact according to evolution he is doing a good thing. It goes without saying there are many more subtle examples other than this one, but the point is humans appear to be much more than what evolution has made us. We instinctively know that Ghengis Khan was a nasty piece of work. Hence we appear to be more than just a product of evolution (i.e. perhaps it's our 'soul' that gives us a sense of justice, mercy, compassion, fairness etc.). If we were solely just a product of evolution maybe we wouldn't see what Ghengis Khan did to be wrong at all.


    Thanks abuYunus this is exactly what I'm trying to say.

    How do you know?




    Nope. We did not evolve from primates. We are primates.


    This just makes everything I'm talking about even more relevant.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #216 - June 30, 2010, 12:06 PM

    How about you kiss my butt?


    lol
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #217 - June 30, 2010, 12:07 PM



    ROFL you're mean  Cheesy
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #218 - June 30, 2010, 12:10 PM

    ROFL you're mean  Cheesy


    lol thats not her though

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #219 - June 30, 2010, 12:11 PM

    Who is that?  wacko
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #220 - June 30, 2010, 12:15 PM

    I understand what you mean and Therationalizer brought up this point earlier in the thread...

    1. They had no way of knowing this at the time.

    2. Her body basically produced an egg that was available to be fertilized so we honestly can't blame anyone (at the time) for thinking she wasn't ready for intercourse/reproduction.

    3. If she has gone through puberty and there are no laws against her marriage at the time we can't deny her the human right to reproduce. Women in their late 40's have a large chance of complications during pregnancy and birth defects...would it be fair to outlaw 40-50 year old women reproducing today?

    4. there are 12 years olds having babys now in the USA.


    Again, whether he was wrong to do what he did is another matter, though I would argue yes, not evil, but wrong. The point is that he claimed he was the perfect example for all mankind, and because of that people have suffered, beause they followed his example. We are singling out Muhammad for criticism only because of that.

    Quote
    It would be unfair to specualte on this. She was married to muhammad for 9 years and then never married again after this. In those 9 years muhammad was sleeping with 8-11 different women on a regular basis and was only able to father 1 child! If anything there was a problem with him.


    Hmm yeh, we can't rule it out either though.

    Quote
    I dont know about this story. The concept of child brides is fucked up but I'm only trying to judge in the case of Muhammad.


    See above ^^. Though I will say, some of the critism of Islam/Muslims on this forum goes way too far. Though it's to be expected I guess.

    Quote
    Please don't think I'm trying to justify these actions in this day and age. I'm just trying to point out that the behaviour of Muhammad was really no different than the rest of the world (up until recent history)


    I'm no historian, but I highly doubt it was common as you think it was.

    Quote
    I agree. But we have to be fair and there are hundreds of ways you can show the falsehood of Islam.


    There are yes, and I personally prefer arguing against it from a philosophical point of view, I don't particularly care about Mo's kiddy fiddling ways.

    Quote
    Actually since aisha was post pubescent he would be a hebephile. And yes he would have to be primarily attracted to pre-pubescent children to be considered a pedo in the "official" sense of the word. Also he could have fucked all the young girls he wanted there was nothing stopping him but he didnt do this.

    here are some links on both...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

    He did do it. But so was everyone else in Arabia and the rest of the world really.


    Hmm no, I would still class him as Pedophile rather than a 'hebephile'. Though we're just being pedantic here.

    Quote
    For instance hippocrates was greek and they did all kinds of fucked up shit. Hippocrates prolly fucked a 9 year old boy but nobody is discounting the contributions he made to modern medicine.


    Difference is, nobody is trying to justify child marriage because of what Hippocrates did.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #221 - June 30, 2010, 12:26 PM

    Yea man of course I think it to be wrong and immoral.

    But I was just trying to point out what is wrong from an "evolutionary standpoint". And what I mean by that is that we are all animals so who is to say what is right/wrong or immoral.


    I'll have a go - 'moral' is what is best for maintaining, and improving, the health and welfare of society.

    Quote
    The reason I brought up ghengis khan is that he was extremely successful in propagating his genes (maybe the most successful in history) but he did so in a way that was (by our standards) wrong/immoral/illegal.

    But at the end of the day (from an atheistic standpoint) our sole purpose on this planet is passing our genes on and ghengis khan did just that.


    That's not my standpoint, nor is it "evolution's". Evolution has no 'purpose', it has no ends, no goals. And your genes do not 'care' whether they are replicated in YOU or someone else. Someone has posted about it on this thread. So from the point of view of our genes, there is more to it than fucking everybiody. There are more effective ways of ensuring gene survival than every man for himself. Rationaliza has posted some good examples. So if you want to argue that what is moral is doing our utmost to propagate our genes, then yes, mass murders/rapists are immoral.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #222 - June 30, 2010, 12:45 PM

    Again, whether he was wrong to do what he did is another matter, though I would argue yes, not evil, but wrong. The point is that he claimed he was the perfect example for all mankind, and because of that people have suffered, beause they followed his example. We are singling out Muhammad for criticism only because of that.


    This is a very good point and I agree.

    I know I was playing devil's advocate a bit earlier in the thread. I'm just suggesting that a more fair (and effective imo) way of criticism would be asking a Muslim...

    "Muhammad had intercourse with a 9 year old girl...how do you feel about that?"

    Instead of just insulting him and calling him sick ect... which will just make a Muslim stop listening.

    PS: how did you feel about this issue when you were muslim?

    Quote
    I'm no historian, but I highly doubt it was common as you think it was.


    Child marriage was very common. In europe where the average lifespan was like 30 it was quite common although 9 would be very unusual (but only because girls don't usually go through menses that early)

    Quote
    Hmm no, I would still class him as Pedophile rather than a 'hebephile'. Though we're just being pedantic here.


    Look I agree that what he did is disturbing. But I think we have to be fair in our accustations because the definiton of pedophile is attraction to pre-pubescent children. (i.e if they a girl had her menses this would be a turn off to a pedo)

    Quote
    Difference is, nobody is trying to justify child marriage because of what Hippocrates did.


    Fair point. But I honestly think child marriage is pretty much eliminated (except for maybe yemen) but I understand what you say because all muslims atleast have to outwardly agree that child marriage is OK because otherwise they would be insulting the Prophet.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #223 - June 30, 2010, 12:49 PM

    Who is that?  wacko


    http://sitemaker.umich.edu/lesbian.history/files/andreadworkin.jpg

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #224 - June 30, 2010, 12:51 PM

    DigDug

    You know there are hadiths that say she was playing with toys? Swinging on a swing set? And having girlfriends that ran when Muhammad came to see her? Because they were afraid/shy. There are hadiths that say she had a hard time breathing and cried until she (laughed). Right before she was about to get married. And hadiths about her hair falling, and the marriage being resumed when her hair grew back.

    AND

    Where is hadith that she had reached menses?

    If i had to reach a conclusion I would say she was not ready, not physically, mentally or emotionally.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #225 - June 30, 2010, 01:02 PM

    I'll have a go - 'moral' is what is best for maintaining, and improving, the health and welfare of society.


    This is a good point. But what my argument for morals is all you need to do is replace the word society with "myself".

    Quote
    That's not my standpoint, nor is it "evolution's". Evolution has no 'purpose', it has no ends, no goals. And your genes do not 'care' whether they are replicated in YOU or someone else. Someone has posted about it on this thread. So from the point of view of our genes, there is more to it than fucking everybiody. There are more effective ways of ensuring gene survival than every man for himself. Rationaliza has posted some good examples. So if you want to argue that what is moral is doing our utmost to propagate our genes, then yes, mass murders/rapists are immoral.


    This is where i disagree (i could be wrong) but doesn't every scientist, biologist, even pschycologist say that what drives humans is

    1. food

    2. shelter

    3. reproduction

    And this is only for the individual. Every animal just want to pass on HIS genes. It's not like a group mentality. If anything he wants to ensure that its ONLY his genes that get passed on and even prevent other animlas from passing on theirs.

    inb4 people flame me with some dawkins shit

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #226 - June 30, 2010, 01:11 PM

    I'm going to preface this post with one statement...Fucking a 9 year old girl (or a child of any age) is totally fucked up and I don't agree with it.

    DigDug

    You know there are hadiths that say she was playing with toys? Swinging on a swing set? And having girlfriends that ran when Muhammad came to see her? Because they were afraid/shy. There are hadiths that say she had a hard time breathing and cried until she (laughed). Right before she was about to get married. And hadiths about her hair falling, and the marriage being resumed when her hair grew back.


    The daleel. brang it.

    (i have heard those things except the breathing one)

    Quote
    AND

    Where is hadith that she had reached menses?

    If i had to reach a conclusion I would say she was not ready, not physically, mentally or emotionally.


    I shall brang the daleel. But we have to be careful in saying that Muhammad focked a pre-pubescent girl. Also I can argue both sides of this all day. Remeber I wasn't born Muslim so I was confronted with this issue (and was shocked) and had to learn about it, justify it to myself (when I was Muslims) ect...

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #227 - June 30, 2010, 01:21 PM

    I honestly don't care. Muhammad is not a man I have to defend or follow anymore. He is a man of his time. As far as I can prove it. Seeing how muslims wrote the history it's hard to argue against. Let me get the daleel.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #228 - June 30, 2010, 01:27 PM

    I honestly don't care. Muhammad is not a man I have to defend or follow anymore. He is a man of his time. As far as I can prove it. Seeing how muslims wrote the history it's hard to argue against. Let me get the daleel.


    Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:

    Narrated Aisha:

    The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

    I think this one covers all the points you made.

    So if we look at it. Her hair fell out because she was ill, this had nothing to do with the marriage. Her trouble breathing had nothing to do with the marriage again because she didn't know what umm ruman was doing.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #229 - June 30, 2010, 01:31 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Xl0Qry-hA
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #230 - June 30, 2010, 01:33 PM



    Did u see the edits I made to that post?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6VTj7LhCtE

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #231 - June 30, 2010, 01:37 PM

    it says THEN after she took me to marriage though. The hair fell off after the marriage.

    And sure she didn't know what was going to happen. But who hyperventilates anytime you're nervous? I haven't heard her hyperventilating in any other hadiths.

    In any case these two are minor issues. You need to show me hadith where it shows she had menses.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #232 - June 30, 2010, 01:51 PM

    it says THEN after she took me to marriage though. The hair fell off after the marriage.


    oh do you mean after the engagment?

    Did you know she was already engaged to someone before Muhammad?

    Quote
    And sure she didn't know what was going to happen. But who hyperventilates anytime you're nervous? I haven't heard her hyperventilating in any other hadiths.


    Lotsa people mang. I remember when I went on this amusment park ride called "drop zone" the lady next to me was flipping out it was hilarious.

    Quote
    In any case these two are minor issues. You need to show me hadith where it shows she had menses.


    I shall...but i need to goto mcdonalds before the breakfast closes so I can buy the flesh of swine

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #233 - June 30, 2010, 02:11 PM

    I start hyperventilating when I get overly stressed/nervous/panicky. It happened the other day when I was got lost driving and then was almost in a car accident. That was one heck of a close encounter.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #234 - June 30, 2010, 02:41 PM

    This is a good point. But what my argument for morals is all you need to do is replace the word society with "myself".


    Have you ever given to charity? (While not believng in divine reward.)

    Quote
    This is where i disagree (i could be wrong) but doesn't every scientist, biologist, even pschycologist say that what drives humans is

    1. food

    2. shelter

    3. reproduction

    And this is only for the individual. Every animal just want to pass on HIS genes. It's not like a group mentality. If anything he wants to ensure that its ONLY his genes that get passed on and even prevent other animlas from passing on theirs.


    Other people have your genes too, they have the exact copy of X/Y/Z gene. The gene doesn't 'care' whether it gets passed on in you or the other person. Hence, you see seemingly altruistic acts between oranisms. Organisms are just vehicles for the propagation of genes. Again, if you define morality as simply ensuring a particular allele remains in the gene pool, then the 'every-man-for-himself' approach is immoral, because there are far more effective methods. We, as a species, have been so succesful because we looked out for each other, not in spite of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-centered_view_of_evolution

    BTW, Dawkins didn't actually come up with the theory, but he is one of its main proponents.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #235 - June 30, 2010, 02:48 PM

    This is a very good point and I agree.

    I know I was playing devil's advocate a bit earlier in the thread. I'm just suggesting that a more fair (and effective imo) way of criticism would be asking a Muslim...

    "Muhammad had intercourse with a 9 year old girl...how do you feel about that?"

    Instead of just insulting him and calling him sick ect... which will just make a Muslim stop listening.

    PS: how did you feel about this issue when you were muslim?


    I never gave it much thought, it was really the philosophical arguments that drove me away from Islam.

    Quote
    Look I agree that what he did is disturbing. But I think we have to be fair in our accustations because the definiton of pedophile is attraction to pre-pubescent children. (i.e if they a girl had her menses this would be a turn off to a pedo)


    As far as I'm aware, there is no irrefutable evidence which shows that men can tell when a girl has begun menstruating. So I don't see how it would be a turn off. How physically developed could she look at 9?
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #236 - June 30, 2010, 02:52 PM

    *double*
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #237 - June 30, 2010, 04:15 PM

    In any case these two are minor issues. You need to show me hadith where it shows she had menses.


    I have been unable to find a hadith where aisha literally says "and then I had my menses" but I think everybody knows that this is the cultural practice of the arabs at the time. Even the extreme critics don't try and suggest Muhammad had intercourse with her before her menses.

    Abu bakr gave permission for her to be married The fact that aisha's own mother prepared her for the marriage show that there was no problem with the marriage. If there was a problem, the Muslims would have questioned him (as they did with his marriage to zaynab) let alone his enemies using this to attack him.

    Also there is evidence from the quran

       Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

    This shows that women are not to be married until they have had their courses. The part of that ayah that refers to women who have no courses is those that menopausal.

    Now as for the points you mentioned.

    1. her hair falling out.

    The hadith clearly shows that this was due to illness and it would be unfair to suggest otherwise. It was merely a factual account of events that happened in the 3 years of the engagement. (she was also engaged to someone else before Muhammad as well)

    2. the hyperventilation

    Once again this had nothing to do with the marriage if we look at the wording of the hadith. Her mother grabbed her by the hand and Aisha said herself she had no idea why. This caused her to be nervous and hyperventilate (as many others do including stardust)

    3. the toys

    Does this mean that any girl who has stuffed animals on her bed is not sexually mature?

    We need to be fair in our criticisms. I came across this website http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/infidels_bunker/other/Wondrous_Treatment_Of_Women_In_Islam.htm and I was just like WTF man. Basically everything said on that site is wrong. We have to avoid looking like the owner of that website at all costs if we want to be taken seriously.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here is some quick info I found on the historical practise of child marriage just in case anyone isn't convinced...

    Quote
    Child marriages such as this were relatively common in Bedouin societies at the time, and remain common in some modern societies worldwide.[20]  American scholar Colin Turner suggests that such marriages were not seen as improper in historical context, and that individuals in such societies matured at an earlier age than in the modern times.[20]  In modern times, however, the issue of Muhammad marrying and having sexual relations with a child so young has been used to criticize him, especially in societies where child sexual abuse and related issues are considered serious crimes. - Colin Turner, Islam: The Basics, Routledge Press, p.34-35


    Quote
    The Baker Ency. of the Bible says about Jewish marriage customs in volume 2, page 1407, under "Marriage": "Subsequently, minimum ages (for marriage) of 13 for boys and 12 for girls were set." And Jim West, ThD, writes online, [at http://www.theology.edu/marriage.htm], in "Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs": "The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the "outset of puberty" or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line". Even in the Mishnah, the age of maturity for a female is 12.5 years: "she won her case in court before she matured [at the age of twelve years and six months], lo, they belong to the father." Mishnah Ketubot, 4:1. So we see that Jewish culture also allowed young girls to be married at an early age. Not as young as 9, but as young as 12. The beginning of puberty was not the cultural norm for the Jewish culture to allow marriage. I assume marriage was allowed if the girl had her menarche, AND she reached the age of 12. This is superior to Islam's standard. Judaism insists that a girl must be at least 12, Islam allows for marriage following the first menses. I believe that there have been documented cases of girls having menarche as young as 8. So here is the crux of the matter: do I, or anyone else, have the right to reprove Muhammad for instituting an accepted cultural norm as a legally permissible practice? Is it unjust criticism from me (and others) when we say that it is wrong to marry and engage in sex with young girls?


    This reflects my statements about 12 year old marriage being common worldwide. Also...

    Quote
    Girls start menstruating at the average age of 12. However, girls can begin menstruating as early as 8 years of age or as late as 16 years of age.

    As girls approach their teen years, many changes occur to prepare their bodies for adult life. The body grows taller, forms breasts, and grows hair. Another change prepares the body for pregnancy. Once the body, brain and womb
    are old enough, a monthly bleeding cycle occurs.
    . http://womens-health.health-cares.net/menstruation-age.php

     

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #238 - June 30, 2010, 04:39 PM

    Have you ever given to charity? (While not believng in divine reward.)


    Not to sound like an asshole but no I haven't. I have helped out friends but only cause they were my friend. for example I really didn't give a shit about haiti. when 9-11 happened I was pissed that they cancelled the baseball games cause I wanted to bet on them.

    Quote
    Other people have your genes too, they have the exact copy of X/Y/Z gene. The gene doesn't 'care' whether it gets passed on in you or the other person. Hence, you see seemingly altruistic acts between oranisms. Organisms are just vehicles for the propagation of genes. Again, if you define morality as simply ensuring a particular allele remains in the gene pool, then the 'every-man-for-himself' approach is immoral, because there are far more effective methods. We, as a species, have been so succesful because we looked out for each other, not in spite of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-centered_view_of_evolution

    BTW, Dawkins didn't actually come up with the theory, but he is one of its main proponents.


    Granted both of the things you and I are suggesting is all theory. But it seems that the most successful people in history are those that stepped on other humans to get where they were.

    It's like I like you prince spinoza but if you are eating, sleeping and fucking while I'm not...I will eat your cookies (or atleast try).

    If what your are asserting is true why would we ever experience jealousy?

    If you have a hot girlfriend and some guy came along that was genetically superior to you in every way would you encourage your girl to mate with him for the good of humanity? And then feel good about it because humanity benefits?

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #239 - June 30, 2010, 04:47 PM


    old favourite - great mood music

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