Evolution and Morality

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #300 - June 30, 2010, 09:44 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 30, 2010, 09:17 PM
btw

And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. S. 65:4 Hilali-Khan

Means you can marry them before menses.

But you can't penetrate them, when you do they have to have menses. That's when the marriage is consummated.

In effect Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6. And before him she was married and then divorced.

You can become engaged to them before this (a promise of marriage). This is true as muhammad definitely married her when she was 6 and then waited for 3 years to consumate the marriage.

I responded to this point to cheetah before...

"Islamic marriage is only official once you "consumate it" by having sex. (they were only "engaged" before that)

If I sign a marriage contract with a woman but never consumate it i was never married to her. The ayah in question refers to "iddah".

A woman would not have to wait the "iddah" if we signed a contract but never consumated the marriage with sex."

To add to this...if I signed a marriage contract with a woman but we never consumated it she is obliged to return the mahr. (becasue we were never officially married)

If I actually divorced a woman that I was married to it is her right to keep the mahr.

Ok I apologize if I misunderstood you earlier it's just that I thought you, cheetah and prince spinoza were trying to say that she was pre-pubescent when he penetrated her.

Just to be clear...do you think muhammad had sex with a pre-pubescent girl?

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So no I don't think he was the only one. And no I don't think you are pushing for this.

The point is that her being pubescent is something we have to take on faith. Since there is no hadith about her reaching menstruation.

I know you're not saying aisha was pre-pubescent when they consumated the marriage but this is for anyone else who is reading...

1. The burden of proof is on the one who asserts she was pre-pubescent.

2. let me ask...if sleeping with a pre-pubesecnt girl was not the custom of the arabs why wouldn't people question him? like the muslims did when he married zaynab (and then he made up verses to justify it)

3. If muhammad (who is the best example according to muslims) had sex with a pre-pubescent girl why do all the scholars agree that this action is haram?

4. Do you think that the verses of the Quran are not clear on this issue?

5. not to sound like an asshole but there is no hadith that says she didn't have a penis growing out of her forehead so we have to take this on faith as well

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The entire argument is simple, Muhammad was a man of his time. His example in this case should not be followed.

I agree totally and I hope nobody was thinkin i was suggesting that.

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She must have been younger than 6 when he had these dreams. What are your thoughts on that? He ie looked at a young child and thought he wants to be married to her, have sex with her.

Your thoughts?

I have said it before and I think this is totally fucked up. Like really fucked up.

But the point I made to prince spinoza and cheetah is that just simply asking that question to a muslim is 1000 times more effective than just calling muhammad a bad name.

I don't know why people are taking what I'm saying in the wrong light. All I wanted to do was prove he isn't a pedophile (which I did).

I was simply arguing against calling him a pedo in this thread but now people (cheetah, prince) are trying to assert that

1. muhammad fucked a pre-pubescent girl

2. that its allowed to fuck pre-pubesecnt girls in Islam

Nobody in history has said this before (and there have always been orientalists and people trying to debunk Islam)

If I had read that (as a muslim) I would have just dissmissed CEMB as an ignorant hate site. This would have been my reaction...

Also, I don't get why people don't think I'm not trying to debunk Islam. It's more or less all I have been doing for the last few weeks. (I was researching the geocentric earth thread until I got derailed by this). Debunking Islam doesn't mean we just find any and everything to insult it.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #301 - June 30, 2010, 09:55 PM

DigDug, I actually agree with you on this. I think the whole "Mo is a pedo" thing is counterproductive and an attempt to vilify Mohammed by applying 21st century moral standards to him.

In fact, when I first came here, this is one of the first things I brought up and debated about here. However, it didn't turn into a several-pages long flamefest with people getting angry at each other like this has, and that's when we had more hardcore anti-Islam folks than post now-- why do you reckon that is, DigDug?

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #302 - June 30, 2010, 09:55 PM

OK I agree.

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Just to be clear...do you think muhammad had sex with a pre-pubescent girl?

According to Islam, with the evidence, I would say no.

What I personally think, from what we know, I would say I'm very uncertain. I don't think it's very usual for 9 year old to menstruate or reach puberty that young. I would lean towards no. But of course a muslim can dismiss this.

The strong arguments are:

- Muhammad dreamed about her and made it a divine thing, that is worrying

- Muhammad is a man of his time, his example should not be followed, what else should we be sceptical about? Why would he authorize this via God?

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18:

Narrated 'Ursa:

The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

- Does this mean Allah is OK with child brides? Even though pregnancy is dangerous on its own, and having a child giving birth will in most cases lead to death, both for her and the infant.
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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #303 - June 30, 2010, 10:14 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 30, 2010, 09:55 PM
DigDug, I actually agree with you on this. I think the whole "Mo is a pedo" thing is counterproductive and an attempt to vilify Mohammed by applying 21st century moral standards to him.

In fact, when I first came here, this is one of the first things I brought up and debated about here. However, it didn't turn into a several-pages long flamefest with people getting angry at each other like this has, and that's when we had more hardcore anti-Islam folks than post now-- why do you reckon that is, DigDug?

Ok cool man. I realize you were about that kinda thing when debunker dug up those old posts of yours.

But to be fair did I really flame anybody ITT?

The flaming started when prince spinoza couldn't respond to the arguments I posted and then people started getting hostile. (i think i made one retaliatory remark to bd then apologized)

If people are getting hostile at me (someone anti-islam) how do we expect to debate a Muslim on the topic?

Quote from: BlackDog on June 30, 2010, 09:55 PM
OK I agree.

According to Islam, with the evidence, I would say no.

Ok cool but other posters said this and instead of examing evidence just got pissed at me when I presented it.

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What I personally think, from what we know, I would say I'm very uncertain. I don't think it's very usual for 9 year old to menstruate or reach puberty that young. I would lean towards no. But of course a muslim can dismiss this.

Yea I posted the girls puberty info on this (and said it was unusual myself earlier) but the doctors say 8-16 years old is the age range for menses.

But what we have to remember is that he would have fucked her whenever she menstruated whether that be 8 or 16.

I posted that evidence about jewish talmud law saying 12 (which is still fucked) but whenever someone talks about judiasm this never gets brought up. (because marriage at this age was common wordwide until pretty recently)

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The strong arguments are:

- Muhammad dreamed about her and made it a divine thing, that is worrying

- Muhammad is a man of his time, his example should not be followed, what else should we be sceptical about? Why would he authorize this via God?

Yea this is fucked up. He made both of his "questionable" marriages a divine thing. I'm not a muslim haha so I believe he used "allah" to justify alot of shit. Like people not overstaying their welcome at his crib. lol

But if we just look at what was discussed here we can all learn how to debate someone on the exact same issue (and also if our accusations against Islam would fall flat)

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- Does this mean Allah is OK with child brides? Even though pregnancy is dangerous on its own, and having a child giving birth will in most cases lead to death, both for her and the infant.

Yes Allah is and thats fucked up. But the thing is I think most muslims know about the aisha thing (or are in denial) so just throwing out names at muhammad will really do nothing except turn muslims off (this goes for CEMB or anywhere)

So i'm not defending Muhammad or Pedophiles (thats fucked) I'm just pointing out that we have to be truthful in our arguments.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #304 - June 30, 2010, 10:15 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 30, 2010, 11:56 AM
There are arguments - as to how sound they are - that's very debatable to say the least. Of course evolutionists had to come up with some arguments to try and explain the discrepency - I have to say personally, so far, I find them quite weak.

Of course theists had to come up with arguments to justify their assertions about invisible deities for which there is no evidence. I have to say that I find their arguments quite weak.

Abu Yunus, you do understand that if the "evolutionists" (terrible creationist cliche there) are correct about our origins then it would not be so much a case of "having to come up with arguments" as "attempting to discover the truth". Of course wording it the former way sounds better to you.

The discrepancy, as you like to call it, may simply be due to our knowledge being incomplete. As I said earlier, I very much doubt that anyone in their right mind has ever claimed that our knowledge of evolution is complete. I wouldn't expect it to be, now or ever.

What I do find amusing though is how theists revel in their ignorance by resorting to "goddidit" whenever they are stumped and claiming this is proof of their spiritual depth and innate superiority. At least "evolutionists" (who are actually called "biologists" in the standard terminology) attempt to dig below the surface.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #305 - June 30, 2010, 11:29 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 30, 2010, 11:47 AM
The argument is that Evolution theory claims to be completely responsible for the make-up of humans - everything we are was due to evolution.
Hence our 'morals' were also shaped by evolution. Whether we like it or not the primary goal of evolution is to propagate our genes - hence if evolution did completely shape our morals then any act that supports the propagation of our genes should be deemed morally a good act *if* we were solely the product of evolution.

I don't agree with the underlined part. Let's assume for the sake of the argument that evolution did shape our morals. Even if that is, why should our morals be based on evolution?
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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #306 - June 30, 2010, 11:36 PM

lol Os.

Actually I never said that God did anything - I was just making the point that there are many important things that evolution theory has yet to explain in a satisfactory manner.

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Abu Yunus, you do understand that if the "evolutionists" (terrible creationist cliche there) are correct about our origins then it would not be so much a case of "having to come up with arguments" as "attempting to discover the truth". Of course wording it the former way sounds better to you.

OK, perhaps I phrased it poorly. But scientists put forward arguments all the time in order to support their theory - but they are just arguments afterall - although be it based on some sort of scientific logic.

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What I do find amusing though is how theists revel in their ignorance by resorting to "goddidit" whenever they are stumped and claiming this is proof of their spiritual depth and innate superiority. At least "evolutionists" (who are actually called "biologists" in the standard terminology) attempt to dig below the surface

Again I never said 'goddidit' - if anything i have always been arguing that we need to study these things in more detail and in fact have said there may well be scientific explanations to things we are unsure about - I even think that having more young evolutionary biologists would be a good thing for the theory - no matter what truths we uncover. Whenever I get called a 'creationist' i take it with a pinch of salt, but I didn't realise me using the word evolutionist to refer to evolutionary biologists is any big deal. But if it pleases you I will use evolutionary biologists from now on. I'm just pointing out there are many important things that the theory has yet to come up with an explanation for - of course i don't think it's 'proof of my spiritual depth and innate superiority' (for all i know there could be completely natural explanations for everything on this planet) - i am merely questioning from a scientific point of veiw and don't see anything wrong with this.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #307 - July 01, 2010, 12:04 AM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 30, 2010, 11:29 PM
Let's assume for the sake of the argument that evolution did shape our morals. Even if that is, why should our morals be based on evolution?

*In theory* all our morals should be based on evolution - there is no way round this as the theory currently claims it is responsible for all that we are: only morals useful from an evolutionary point of veiw would exist withtin us, according to the theory itself. Every feeling we have, every emotion we go through should potentially be explained using the theory. For example the fact that we care about each others survival is down to 'group survival' according to some models - and this gives us an evolutionary benefit in helping propagate our genes. The question I am asking is can evolution really account for all the in depth morality and emotions that humans posess and are capable of. If you are suggesting that some parts of our morality did not result from evolution - then where else did they come from?

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #308 - July 01, 2010, 12:07 AM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 30, 2010, 11:29 PM
I don't agree with the underlined part. Let's assume for the sake of the argument that evolution did shape our morals. Even if that is, why should our morals be based on evolution?

This was kinda the point I was making in the whole thread. And I think people misunderstood me.

In no way was I trying to advocate rape or saying short people were inferior or anything of the sort.

The point I was trying to make is that when I was a Muslim and I saw someone that was born without a leg lets say. I wouldn't say anything about it because this was the creation of Allah. I would also be grateful to Allah for not testing me with this kind of ailment.

The evolution thing came up because it seems to be the base many people use for denying a creator God and also the base for their world view. (mostly humanism type beliefs)

But it seems that they then try ignore the nature of man (the way it is seen by evolution).

Osmanthus corrected me in this thread when I said that humans evolved from primates and told me we ARE primates. Now when one primate kills another is this wrong?

Because one of the oldest religous "stories" is that of Cain and Abel and it is found in all of the "big three" religions. And it deals with murder. It almost seems as if we get all of our "morals" of today from religion but we just try and take out the parts we don't like.

What is the difference between Muhammad making up a bunch of laws and then enforcing them with violence than humanists making up a bunch of laws and then enforcing them with violence?

If anything Muhammad was smarter because he was able to convinve people that they werent his laws but they were sent down from "God". (moses is the same)

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #309 - July 01, 2010, 12:08 AM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on July 01, 2010, 12:04 AM
*In theory* all our morals should be based on evolution - there is no way round this as the theory currently claims it is responsible for all that we are: only morals useful from an evolutionary point of veiw would exist withtin us, according to the theory itself. Every feeling we have, every emotion we go through should potentially be explained using the theory. For example the fact that we care about each others survival is down to 'group survival' according to some models - and this gives us an evolutionary benefit in helping propagate our genes. The question I am asking is can evolution really account for all the in depth morality and emotions that humans posess and are capable of. If you are suggesting that some parts of our morality did not result from evolution - then where else did it come from?

exactly the point of the thread

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #310 - July 01, 2010, 12:26 AM

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It almost seems as if we get all of our "morals" of today from religion but we just try and take out the parts we don't like.

DD, sometimes i feel other posters are giving you a rough ride but other times i really wish you'd think before you post. we don't take our morals from religion - certainly not these days - our morals come from within us - all humans posess them regardless of religous inclination.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #311 - July 01, 2010, 12:39 AM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on July 01, 2010, 12:26 AM
DD, sometimes i feel other posters are giving you a rough ride but other times i really wish you'd think before you post. we don't take our morals from religion - certainly not these days - our morals come from within us - all humans posess them regardless of religous inclination.

hey man it's just my opinion. Am i not entitled to that?

We have to remember that religion has been there since time immemorial...

What was the first civilisation on earth? the ancient sumerians? Are their morals the same as ours?

here are some of the laws of hammurabi's code (the first ever system of laws)

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* If anyone ensnares another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death.

   * If anyone brings an accusation against a man, and the accused goes to the river and leaps into the river, if he sinks in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river proves that the accused is not guilty, and he escapes unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.

   * If anyone brings an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if a capital offense is charged, be put to death.

   * If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then the builder shall be put to death.(Another variant of this is, If the owner's son dies, then the builder's son shall be put to death.)

   * If a son strike his father, his hands shall be hewn off.

   * If a man give his child to a nurse and the child dies in her hands, but the nurse unbeknown to the father and mother nurses another child, then they shall convict her of having nursed another child without the knowledge of the father and mother and her breasts shall be cut off.

   * If anyone steals the minor son of another, he shall be put to death.

   * If a man takes a woman to wife, but has no intercourse with her, this woman is no wife to him.

   * If a man strikes a pregnant woman, thereby causing her to miscarry and die, the assailant's daughter shall be put to death.

   * If a man puts out the eye of an equal, his eye shall be put out.

   * If a man knocks the teeth out of another man, his own teeth will be knocked out.

   * If anyone strikes the body of a man higher in rank than he, he shall receive sixty blows with an ox-whip in public.

   * If a freeborn man strikes the body of another freeborn man of equal rank, he shall pay one gold mina [an amount of money].

   * If the slave of a freed man strikes the body of a freed man, his ear shall be cut off.

   * If anyone commits a robbery and is caught, he shall be put to death.

   * If anyone opens his ditches to water his crop, but is careless, and the water floods his neighbor's field, he shall pay his neighbor corn for his loss.

   * If a judge tries a case, reaches a decision, and presents his judgment in writing; and later it is discovered that his decision was in error, and it was his own fault, he shall pay twelve times the fine set by him in the case and be removed from the judge's bench.

   * If during an unsuccessful operation a patient dies, the arm of the surgeon must be cut off.

shouldn't the sumerian have the exact same morals as we do today if this is inside every human?

Now do our current laws resemble this or the laws of judiasm/christianity/islam?

If you put a human in the woods from birth and he grew up without contact with society would he have the smae moral code as the rest of humanity?

Morals are what is placed on us by society...Muhammad (nor any arab at the time) thought that marriage to a 9 years old was immoral. However we today see it as one of the most disgusting things. I ge tthe feeling if we were born in 7th century arabia we wouldn't think that.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #312 - July 01, 2010, 12:58 AM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 30, 2010, 11:36 PM
lol Os.

Actually I never said that God did anything - I was just making the point that there are many important things that evolution theory has yet to explain in a satisfactory manner.

This must be an unusual definition of "never".

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OK, perhaps I phrased it poorly. But scientists put forward arguments all the time in order to support their theory - but they are just arguments afterall - although be it based on some sort of scientific logic.

Of course.

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Again I never said 'goddidit'

Hmm. Well you claim that since we don't have 100% solidly confirmed naturalistic explanations for every detail of our behaviour then this is evidence of something outside of nature, and of course by this you mean Allah, right?

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #313 - July 01, 2010, 01:09 AM

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This must be an unusual definition of "never"

ok, so maybe i've stated once or twice that one possibilty is that humans posess a soul that can explain our morality - but i think i said this in more theological-based debates rather than scientific ones.

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Hmm. Well you claim that since we don't have 100% solidly confirmed naturalistic explanations for every detail of our behaviour then this is evidence of something outside of nature, and of course by this you mean Allah, right?

No this time i'm sure i never said anything remotely like that - i don't feel that way at all. In fact i've said even if evolution can't explain things - maybe one day we'll figure out a new scientific mechanism that might supplement evolution so that everything could be explained naturally. Although as a theist I simply don't rule out a 'soul' as being a possibility - although i realise it's even wrong to make this point in any sort of scientific debate

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #314 - July 01, 2010, 01:15 AM

Quote from: DigDug on July 01, 2010, 12:39 AM
We have to remember that religion has been there since time immemorial....

Yes, but the type of religion in the West (I include the Near East) has changed, significantly-- from earth-cult animism to sky-cult polytheism, to monotheism.

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here are some of the laws of hammurabi's code (the first ever system of laws)

shouldn't the sumerian have the exact same morals as we do today if this is inside every human?

Now do our current laws resemble this

Some laws do-- in certain US jurisdictions the punishment for perjury in a capital case can range up to capital punishment, and you can still get an annulment of marriage if you don't fuck your wife. In some US jurisdictions and other parts of the West, capital punishment was still in force for certain property crimes up to the late 19th/early 20th century.

And, in fact, most of the shit listed there we still do have laws for, we just don't clip people for those crimes or offenses any more. The penalties we would consider immoral, but we'd still morally condemn most of the acts prohibited in Hammurabi's code.

Also-- can you name any culture throughout history where cowardice was celebrated as a virtue and courage a vice? Or where theft from your own community was not frowned upon? I think there are a few moral principles that clearly transcend different cultures and times.

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If you put a human in the woods from birth and he grew up without contact with society would he have the smae moral code as the rest of humanity?

Locke and Rousseau seemed to think so. Or at least they proposed a "natural law" existed for man in the state of nature.

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Morals are what is placed on us by society...

What are commonly taken to be morals are placed on us by society, but there is an objective morality independent of that which is knowable through a priori reasoning. Now a man who lives by his own moral code, apart from society's, will undoubtedly have his moral principles shaped by the society he was raised in, but it can still be his own moral code which may correspond more to objective morality than society's morality (or less in some cases).

But to quote Omar Little-- "Everybody gotta have a code"

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #315 - July 01, 2010, 01:19 AM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on July 01, 2010, 01:09 AM
ok, so maybe i've stated once or twice that one possibilty is that humans posess a soul that can explain our morality - but i think i said this in more theological-based debates rather than scientific ones.

Yes but it does seem to be the basis of your objections to a purely naturalistic explanation. God of the gaps combined with argument from personal incredulity.

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No this time i'm sure i never said anything remotely like that - i don't feel that way at all. In fact i've said even if evolution can't explain things - maybe one day we'll figure out a new scientific mechanism that might supplement evolution so that everything could be explained naturally. Although as a theist I simply don't rule out a 'soul' as being a possibility - although i realise it's even wrong to make this point in any sort of scientific debate

Ok, but as a theist aren't you more strongly committed than that? Don't you have to actually believe a soul is a lot more than just a possibility?

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #316 - July 01, 2010, 01:29 AM

Quote from: DigDug on July 01, 2010, 12:39 AM

shouldn't the sumerian have the exact same morals as we do today if this is inside every human?

from a theological point of view, my personal opinion is that morality has improved throughout history - i think that humanity has collectively purified it's soul - to the extent where we longer need any guidance from God. when human morality was primitive, God sent revelation to help humans along the way - but those revelations dealt with and therefore reflected those primitive times and hence were not appropriate for later generations. perhaps we are at the stage where our souls have reached their full potential and we longer need help from God - maybe that was always God's intention - that we collectively purify our souls all the way to their full potential in this way. Anyway that's just my personal speculation...peops will no doubt think i'm crazier than you, lol

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If you put a human in the woods from birth and he grew up without contact with society would he have the smae moral code as the rest of humanity?

that's an interesting point and i agree that an interaction with humanity is required to develop ones morality

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #317 - July 01, 2010, 01:31 AM

Cool post man thanks. I wasn;t trying to just spew my views all in this thread I was actually interested in learning something.

Quote from: Q-Man on July 01, 2010, 01:15 AM
Yes, but the type of religion in the West (I include the Near East) has changed, significantly-- from earth-cult animism to sky-cult polytheism, to monotheism.

But this changed pretty rapidly. For instance abraham was from ancient sumeria.

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And, in fact, most of the shit listed there we still do have laws for, we just don't clip people for those crimes or offenses any more. The penalties we would consider immoral, but we'd still morally condemn most of the acts prohibited in Hammurabi's code.

This is a very good point. That the crimes are more or less the same its just the punishment that changes. Although I do believe the punishment is based on "morals" as well.

For example, everyone here (i hope) would find merdering a thief to be immoral

Or cutting off the arm of a surgeon if he fucked up haha

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Also-- can you name any culture throughout history where cowardice was celebrated as a virtue and courage a vice? Or where theft from your own community was not frowned upon? I think there are a few moral principles that clearly transcend different cultures and times.

Once again good point. But I guess I was trying to say things like this come through evolution?

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Locke and Rousseau seemed to think so. Or at least they proposed a "natural law" existed for man in the state of nature.

I always figured they would be savage like. like if you raise children in a shitty way they don't act the same way as the rest of the kids.

i.e steal stuff, hit other kids ect...
You could raise a pitbull in a proper manner and it will be a well adjusted dog...or you could train it in such a way that it attacks people.

I'm just asking do morals have to be learned or are they implanted in us from birth?

Like I could make a new post about the current morals of tribes in the amazon or the south pacific and they would have moral codes that we would find to be totally crazy. (althouh as you said they would have common things with us like the courage ect..)

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What are commonly taken to be morals are placed on us by society, but there is an objective morality independent of that which is knowable through a priori reasoning. Now a man who lives by his own moral code, apart from society's, will undoubtedly have his moral principles shaped by the society he was raised in, but it can still be his own moral code which may correspond more to objective morality than society's morality (or less in some cases).

This is interesting because I really don't know any of this shit. If I post something thats wrong in this thread just correct me.

But I just made the point about the aisha thing because this is considered maybe the worst crime in society today (am i wrong?) but it was seen as totally normal back then.

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But to quote Omar Little-- "Everyone gotta have a code"

possibly the best show in the history of tv

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #318 - July 01, 2010, 01:36 AM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on July 01, 2010, 01:29 AM
from a theological point of view, my personal opinion is that morality has improved throughout history - i think that humanity has collectively purified it's soul - to the extent where we longer need any guidance from God. when human morality was primitive, God sent revelation to help humans along the way - but those revelations dealt with and therefore reflected those primitive times and hence were not appropriate for later generations. perhaps we are at the stage where our souls have reached their full potential and we longer need help from God - maybe that was always God's intention - that we collectively purify our souls all the way to their full potential in this way. Anyway that's just my personal speculation...peops will no doubt think i'm crazier than you, lol

that's an interesting point and i agree that an interaction with humanity is required to develop ones morality

1. I believe in God too just dont believe that the people who claimed to be his messenger aren't.

2. What you said is interesting because don't most people say "the world is going to shit" and it's at the most fuckedup it's ever been?

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #319 - July 01, 2010, 01:40 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on July 01, 2010, 01:19 AM
Yes but it does seem to be the basis of your objections to a purely naturalistic explanation. God of the gaps combined with argument from personal incredulity.

subconciously, perhaps that is one of the reasons for my objections. but my concerns from a scientific point of view are real - i don't feel that i'm being dishonest about this - in fact even when i was an atheist there were many things that bothered me about aspects of the theory - as i am sure they bother the brains of many evolutionary biologists

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Ok, but as a theist aren't you more strongly committed than that? Don't you have to actually believe a soul is a lot more than just a possibility?

i have faith there is a God and that humans have a soul - that doesn't mean i know that God exists and we have a soul - hence it's only a possibility

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #320 - July 01, 2010, 01:45 AM

Quote from: DigDug on July 01, 2010, 01:31 AM
Once again good point. But I guess I was trying to say things like this come through evolution?

Maybe.

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I always figured they would be savage like.

Well if they lived alone their whole lives they would have no concept of how to interact with other people, nor language, but if in a small, isolated community-- I see little evidence that hunter-gatherer tribes are inherently more violent and immoral than civilized society. I don't believe in Rousseau's "noble savage", but neither do I believe such societies/people are necessarily bad or violent. Some are more violent than civilized society, some less so-- but the ones that have existed into the modern era do tend to share certain cultural traits whether they're from the Amazon or the Kalahari, and this has been well-documented by anthropologists.

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I'm just asking do morals have to be learned or are they implanted in us from birth?

False dichotomy. Objective morals can be both learned and self-evident.

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Like I could make a new post about the current morals of tribes in the amazon or the south pacific and they would have moral codes that we would find to be totally crazy. (althouh as you said they would have common things with us like the courage ect..)

Morality can be somewhat relative according to material conditions and cultural traditions, but I still believe there are some fundamental, core moral principles that are knowable, objective, universal, and stand independent of the particular morality accepted by a society in a certain place at a certain time.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #321 - July 01, 2010, 01:51 AM

Quote from: DigDug on July 01, 2010, 01:36 AM
1. I believe in God too just dont believe that the people who claimed to be his messenger aren't.

2. What you said is interesting because don't most people say "the world is going to shit" and it's at the most fuckedup it's ever been?

1. cool. if i wasn't a Muslim i'd probably be an agnostic theist as well

2. humans still make mistakes - but we tend to realise when we've done wrong and we learn from our own mistakes

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #322 - July 01, 2010, 01:58 AM

Quote from: Q-Man on July 01, 2010, 01:45 AM
Well if they lived alone their whole lives they would have no concept of how to interact with other people, nor language, but if in a small, isolated community-- I see little evidence that hunter-gatherer tribes are inherently more violent and immoral than civilized society. I don't believe in Rousseau's "noble savage", but neither do I believe such societies/people are necessarily bad or violent. Some are more violent than civilized society, some less so-- but the ones that have existed into the modern era do tend to share certain cultural traits whether they're from the Amazon or the Kalahari, and this has been well-documented by anthropologists.

So would these tribes be considered immoral?

If not why? because they do things that would be considered immoral by our standards.

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Morality can be somewhat relative according to material conditions and cultural traditions, but I still believe there are some fundamental, core moral principles that are knowable, objective, universal, and stand independent of the particular morality accepted by a society in a certain place at a certain time.

I still am finding it hard to grasp this

"
But I just made the point about the aisha thing because this is considered maybe the worst crime in society today (am i wrong?) but it was seen as totally normal back then."

How can mankind pull such a 180 on something that has always been considered normal (if not desirable) in such a short period of time if we are all born with roughly the same moral code.

Do you know of any other example where mankind has pulled a 180 on something like this?

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #323 - July 01, 2010, 02:13 AM

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Do you know of any other example where mankind has pulled a 180 on something like this?

-Weed (marijuana - normal and not an issue till about 100 years ago)
-homosexuality (from linchyng and persecution to gay marriages in about 40 years)
- tatoos,piercings became acceptable from being a sign of "deviant lifestyle"
- tabacco - from being cool for about 500 years - to being uncool and fought by the state and the majority of people

etc etc. Morality changes with the changes of the social and economical structures, and yes there is morals without religion, check out the animal kingdom , especially the more advanced animals of the mamalian branch (chimps and apes that have social structures, hence morals-codes of conduct)

bye

Quote from: FreeSoul007 on January 14, 2011, 05:00 AM
Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!
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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #324 - July 01, 2010, 02:55 AM

@cheetah

Just in case I get banned....

1. Do you really think you are qualified to make such statements when you know nothing about Islam? You have made some ridiculously untrue statements about islam and at what point is this just considered spewing hate/slander

2. I have seen you make fun of Islam many times but yet you were never a muslim...you also see yourself fit to criticize islam (using lies) without any knowledge. do you consider this behaviour to be at all xenophobic?

brb being an admin on a ex-muslim site while having never been a muslim and just spouting lies and criticing islam while i know nothing about it. brb prolly banning digdug for being a bigot when i am one myself also

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #325 - July 01, 2010, 03:18 AM

Quote from: DigDug on July 01, 2010, 02:55 AM
@cheetah

Just in case I get banned....

1. Do you really think you are qualified to make such statements when you know nothing about Islam? You have made some ridiculously untrue statements about islam and at what point is this just considered spewing hate/slander

2. I have seen you make fun of Islam many times but yet you were never a muslim...you also see yourself fit to criticize islam (using lies) without any knowledge. do you consider this behaviour to be at all xenophobic?

brb being an admin on a ex-muslim site while having never been a muslim and just spouting lies and criticing islam while i know nothing about it. brb prolly banning digdug for being a bigot when i am one myself also

So predictable with the complaints of hypocrisy. And notice how he gets his parting shot on Cheetah-- someone who seemed to have earned his ire for no discernible reason.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #326 - July 01, 2010, 06:50 AM

Jesus Christ what happened here? :S
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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #327 - July 01, 2010, 10:28 AM

Quote from: DigDug on July 01, 2010, 02:55 AM
@cheetah

Just in case I get banned....

1. Do you really think you are qualified to make such statements when you know nothing about Islam? You have made some ridiculously untrue statements about islam and at what point is this just considered spewing hate/slander

2. I have seen you make fun of Islam many times but yet you were never a muslim...you also see yourself fit to criticize islam (using lies) without any knowledge. do you consider this behaviour to be at all xenophobic?

brb being an admin on a ex-muslim site while having never been a muslim and just spouting lies and criticing islam while i know nothing about it. brb prolly banning digdug for being a bigot when i am one myself also

what the heck DD? what's your problem with Cheetah - she's someone I have a lot of respect for and can tell you is very far from being a bigot. whenever she criticizes Islam, it's based on what a lot of other Muslims hold true that are anti-human rights etc. and ideologies she personally finds ridiculous. As a Muslim, I for one welcome her criticism.

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #328 - July 01, 2010, 12:56 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 30, 2010, 10:14 PM
Ok cool man. I realize you were about that kinda thing when debunker dug up those old posts of yours.

But to be fair did I really flame anybody ITT?

The flaming started when prince spinoza couldn't respond to the arguments I posted and then people started getting hostile. (i think i made one retaliatory remark to bd then apologized)

Excuse me, what? I posted a pic of a girl who had already begun menstruating and she LOOKED pre-pubescent. So you haven't proven anything, you haven't proven that Mo wasn't attracted to kiddies. You haven't even proven that Aisha had had her first period (lol). What exactly have you proven? I see you never responded to the Evolution stuff too, is that because you didn't have a clue about it? I think so.

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Yes Allah is and thats fucked up. But the thing is I think most muslims know about the aisha thing (or are in denial) so just throwing out names at muhammad will really do nothing except turn muslims off (this goes for CEMB or anywhere)

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Re: Evolution and Morality
Reply #329 - July 01, 2010, 12:59 PM

I criticise Islam no worse than I criticise any other religion, they are all stupid as far as I'm concerned. No offense intended to anyone who follows them, but that's just the way I see things.

Anyway, asshat got banned in my absence so I think he needs a new avatar.

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