I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)

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Reply #90 - June 28, 2010, 12:22 PM

@ Islame

I don't want to go there all over again. Obviously, the evidence of the existence of a Creator God is irrefutable, as far as I'm concerned, to the point that I can't believe that there are those who think the evidence is "lacking".

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Reply #91 - June 28, 2010, 12:22 PM

Debunker your position is not defendable. Being a deist is not being a muslim. End of.

Being a deist means you can have various ideas about God. Various attributes of God etc.

Being a deist means most likely you don't believe in Allah. IE you would not refer to God as Allah and you would consider Allah to be an Islamic God.

Being a deist can very likely mean you don't believe in Angels.

You don't believe in Judgement Day.

You don't believe in Heaven or Hell.

You my friend have changed the word Deist to fit your bill.
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Reply #92 - June 28, 2010, 12:23 PM

Quote from: Heyjustlooking on June 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
Not true. The Qur'an specifies you must also believe in his moral instructions as infallible and believe in the Qur'an as the word of God otherwise you are an unbeliever.

Verses please...

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Reply #93 - June 28, 2010, 12:24 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 28, 2010, 12:22 PM
Debunker your position is not defendable. Being a deist is not being a muslim. End of.

Being a deist means you can have various ideas about God.

Being a deist means most likely you don't believe in Allah.

Being a deist can very likely mean you don't believe in Angels.

You don't believe in Judgement Day.

You don't believe in Heaven or Hell.

You my friend have changed the word Deist to fit your bill.

Huh?! Who said that I'm equating Deism with Islam?

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Reply #94 - June 28, 2010, 12:24 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 28, 2010, 12:22 PM
Debunker your position is not defendable. Being a deist is not being a muslim. End of.

Being a deist means you can have various ideas about God. Various attributes of God etc.

Being a deist means most likely you don't believe in Allah. IE you would not refer to God as Allah and you would consider Allah to be an Islamic God.

Being a deist can very likely mean you don't believe in Angels.

You don't believe in Judgement Day.

You don't believe in Heaven or Hell.

You my friend have changed the word Deist to fit your bill.

That's what I said to him - he doesn't seem to understand.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
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Reply #95 - June 28, 2010, 12:27 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 12:24 PM
Huh?! Who said that I'm equating Deism with Islam?

You said believing in Creator God means you won't go to hell.

We're saying that's incorrect, a deist is not a muslim and therefore most likely will end up in hell.

Let met ask you this.

Does a Sikh go to heaven?

Or a Mormon?

Or a Bahá'í?
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Reply #96 - June 28, 2010, 12:37 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 12:23 PM
Verses please...

3:114     They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. They are of the righteous.

5:10     Those who reject faith and deny our signs will be companions of Hell-fire.

98:6     Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

2:99    We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
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Reply #97 - June 28, 2010, 12:44 PM

Quote
You said believing in Creator God means you won't go to hell.

1- I said even if you *sincerely* don't believe in the Quran while you believe in Creator God, you'll avoid Hell...

2- I even said that if you *sincerely* don't believe God exists, then you still will avoid Hell.

While I believe there can be many people who sincerely don't believe in Islam, I can't believe there are many sincere disbelievers in God.

We're saying that's in correct, a deist is not a muslim and therefore most likely will end up in hell.

Oh! Ok. So you're saying my beliefs regarding this issue are un-Islamic or not acording to Quran. Ok, Check 3:64 this out.

Quote
Let met ask you this.

Does a Sikh go to heaven?

Or a Mormon?

Or a Bahá'í?

My answer is the same as above.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Reply #98 - June 28, 2010, 12:46 PM

Quote
PICKTHAL: Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).

OK?

Those groups I listed don't fall under this Scripture label. Neither do Deists.
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Reply #99 - June 28, 2010, 12:48 PM

Quote from: Heyjustlooking on June 28, 2010, 12:37 PM

3:114     They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. They are of the righteous.

5:10     Those who reject faith and deny our signs will be companions of Hell-fire.

98:6     Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

2:99     We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse.

All, except, 2:99 are irrelevant to what you said here:

Quote
Not true. The Qur'an specifies you must also believe in his moral instructions as infallible and believe in the Qur'an as the word of God otherwise you are an unbeliever.

Anyway, to make things easier for you (and me) check out 3:64.

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Reply #100 - June 28, 2010, 12:49 PM

Quote
While I believe there can be many people who sincerely don't believe in Islam, I can't believe there are many sincere disbelievers in God.

Argument from Incredulity
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Reply #101 - June 28, 2010, 12:51 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 28, 2010, 12:46 PM
OK?

Come on, BD! Allah = God! It's the Arabic word for God. There's no other way to say the capital-G word God in Arabic except Allah.

Anyway, so the verse says: You don't believe in the Quran? Fine, just worship God and only God (Majority of Christians of course worship Jesus and the Jews are accused in the Quran of treating their priests like gods).

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Reply #102 - June 28, 2010, 12:56 PM

I posted the verse bro. It says People of Scripture. I edited my post.
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Reply #103 - June 28, 2010, 01:01 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 12:22 PM
@ Islame

I don't want to go there all over again. Obviously, the evidence of the existence of a Creator God is irrefutable, as far as I'm concerned, to the point that I can't believe that there are those who think the evidence is "lacking".

Well, there could also be infinite Gods? Or a family of Gods? Do you also believe this is also irrefutable and absolutely impossible?

Look we both know the answer, lets not pretend or decieve ourselves. Nobody the f*ck know, so lets just be honest with our understanding.

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Reply #104 - June 28, 2010, 01:09 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 12:23 PM
Verses please...

But those who disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism), for them is destruction, and (Allah) will make their deeds vain.
That is because they hate that which Allah has sent down (this Qur'an and Islamic laws, etc.); so He has made their deeds fruitless. 47:8-9

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Reply #105 - June 28, 2010, 01:14 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 12:14 PM
Oh, the thing is I think we ALL already see undeniable irrefutable evidence.

I assume you mean the question our existence and the universe poses. i.e. how did it all get here? Who originated it/caused it to be? The magnificence, beauty and precise balance of it all etc...

That still leaves room for doubt, Debunker.

It may well be that some divine being who is beyond our comprehension created it. We can also make the guess that it must have some grand plan or purpose.

But these are still assumptions - not undeniable proof.

It may well be that there is some other unimaginable reason.

I myself wonder at times if there is a God of some sort. But I would be lying to myself if I claimed the proof of God's existence was undeniable. Wouldn't you agree?
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Reply #106 - June 28, 2010, 01:15 PM

@ DD

start reading from 47:4. The verses were talking about the kuffar who the Muslims were about to meet in battle.

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Reply #107 - June 28, 2010, 01:18 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 28, 2010, 01:14 PM
I assume you mean the question our existence and the universe poses. i.e. how did it all get here? Who originated it/caused it to be? The magnificence, beauty and precise balance of it all etc...

Yes.

Quote
That still leaves room for doubt, Debunker.

It may well be that some divine being who is beyond our comprehension created it. We can also make the guess that it must have some grand plan or purpose.

But these are still assumptions - not undeniable proof.

It may well be that there is some other unimaginable reason.

I myself wonder at times if there is a God of some sort. But I would be lying to myself if I claimed the proof of God's existence was undeniable. Wouldn't you agree?

No. But then again, that's just me.

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Reply #108 - June 28, 2010, 01:21 PM

Ok, Hassan, let me ask you a related question:

Do you believe we (along with other animals) have souls? (This is a proof of the supernatural, btw).

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Reply #109 - June 28, 2010, 01:23 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:15 PM
@ DD

start reading from 47:4. The verses were talking about the kuffar who the Muslims were about to meet in battle.

dont the scholars and the mufassirun say these verses apply to all disbelievers? (or anyone who hates what Allah sent down?)

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Reply #110 - June 28, 2010, 01:24 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:21 PM
Ok, Hassan, let me ask you a related question:

Do you believe we (along with other animals) have souls? (This is a proof of the supernatural, btw).

I don't know.

Do you know? How?
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Reply #111 - June 28, 2010, 01:25 PM

@ DD

Fuck, the scholars... Did you read from 47:4?

btw, did you know that the great "scholar", Ibn Kathir, unwittingly equated God with Jesus?

Anyway, read from 47:4 and tell me what you think.

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Reply #112 - June 28, 2010, 01:25 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:21 PM
Ok, Hassan, let me ask you a related question:

Do you believe we (along with other animals) have souls? (This is a proof of the supernatural, btw).

lol

soul meaning something non-physical? right?

and id also like to see your proof on the supernatural
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Reply #113 - June 28, 2010, 01:27 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 28, 2010, 01:24 PM
I don't know.

Do you know? How?

Yes. As to how, simply by looking at the fact that everything comes from the Periodic Table (including our own selves) and yet, only us (and animals) are aware.

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Reply #114 - June 28, 2010, 01:28 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:18 PM
Yes.

No. But then again, that's just me.

I am quite surprised.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for anyone to say that that the question posed by the existence of the universe etc... leads them to believe there is a God - and to add that they believe he has a plan.

But to say that this constitutes undeniable proof there is a God - or that he has a plan - is simply untenable imho of course
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Reply #115 - June 28, 2010, 01:28 PM

Quote from: Boo on June 28, 2010, 01:25 PM
lol

soul meaning something non-physical? right?

and id also like to see your proof on the supernatural

Ok, I understood your *lol*. (it means you're so smart, you couldn't help but laugh at my silly argument). However, I didn't understand the rest of your post.

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Reply #116 - June 28, 2010, 01:32 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 27, 2010, 09:03 PM
(Clicky for piccy!)

DigDug, you deserve the title "Master of GIFs".

...
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Reply #117 - June 28, 2010, 01:32 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 28, 2010, 01:28 PM
I am quite surprised.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for anyone to say that that the question posed by the existence of the universe etc... leads them to believe there is a God - and to add that they believe he has a plan.

But to say that this constitutes undeniable proof there is a God - or that he has a plan - is simply untenable imho of course

Hassan,

The way things were created strongly suggest they were meant to be. The chances of a planet like Earth supporting life, the way it does, is practically zero. Yet we are here... no meteors raining on our heads, no solar winds frying our skins, etc, etc.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Reply #118 - June 28, 2010, 01:33 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:25 PM
@ DD

Fuck, the scholars... Did you read from 47:4?

btw, did you know that the great "scholar", Ibn Kathir, unwittingly equated God with Jesus?

Anyway, read from 47:4 and tell me what you think.

i did man i still think it applies to all people who hate what allah has sent down. It's also hard to reject what like every scholar in history has said.

Why would someone else who hates what Allah has sent down and tries to hinder people from his path be exempt from this statement?

I'm an asshat.
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Reply #119 - June 28, 2010, 01:34 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:27 PM
Yes. As to how, simply by looking at the fact that everything comes from the Periodic Table (including our own selves) and yet, only us (and animals) are aware.

Interesting theory - but not proof imho.

I can understand why you believe in God and the soul, Debunker - I think you have good reason. But I really don't understand why you think your reasons constitute undeniable proof.

I would say that long familiarity with concepts like God and soul contribute to making it easier to think that a 'belief' is more than it is.
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