I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)

Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 7 ... 11 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- DigDug
- Member
- *BANNED*
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #120 - June 28, 2010, 01:37 PM

Quote from: RIBS on June 28, 2010, 01:32 PM
DigDug, you deserve the title "Master of GIFs".

haha a picture says 1000 words

I'm an asshat.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #121 - June 28, 2010, 01:39 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:32 PM
Hassan,

The way things were created strongly suggest they were meant to be. The chances of a planet like Earth supporting life, the way it does, is practically zero. Yet we are here... no meteors raining on our heads, no solar winds frying our skins, etc, etc.

Yes, I have thought about all those things before. But again they only pose a question we can't answer. The God theory is fine - and who knows? It could be true. (Not religions tho - they're all bullshit )

But the God theory might not be true also. It's not certain. It's not undeniable.

The very concept of God is something that is far beyond our understanding and breaks every law we know about. If such a concept can be brought into the reckoning to answer this question - why is it not possible there may be some other unimaginable explanation that exists outside all our presently known knowledge and understanding?
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #122 - June 28, 2010, 01:40 PM

@ Hassan

when it comes to soul, I did discuss it once with z10, of course he doesn't believe in souls, but he does recognize the *hard problem of conscienceness*. When I was discussing this with him, other members, simply claimed this problem doesn't even exist.

What I'm saying is: atheists are every bit as stubborn as theists in their beliefs.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Tlaloc
- Aperture Science Test Subject
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #123 - June 28, 2010, 01:40 PM

Quote from: wizzie on June 28, 2010, 10:51 AM
I think what debunker was trying to say, is that only God knows best what is in the hearts of men, not us. And yes that includes us Muslims.

I know it too: muscles and blood and some cholesterol clogging your arteries here and there.

Oh the wonderful hearts of men! <3

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #124 - June 28, 2010, 01:42 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:40 PM
@ Hassan

when it comes to soul, I did discuss it once with z10, of course he doesn't believe in souls, but he does recognize the *hard problem of conscienceness*. When I was discussing this with him, other members, simply claimed this problem doesn't even exist.

What I'm saying is: atheists are every bit as stubborn as theists in their beliefs.

1. That's because there are different theories.

2. None of the theories prove a soul.
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #125 - June 28, 2010, 01:42 PM

Quote
why is it not possible there may be some other unimaginable explanation that exists outside all our presently known knowledge and understanding?

Ok, I heard that from a somewhat reasonable atheists before: "we don't know everything, let's wait... no God of the gaps, please!".

But I don't think it's an argument for God of the gaps.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #126 - June 28, 2010, 01:44 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:40 PM
What I'm saying is: atheists are every bit as stubborn as theists in their beliefs.

Let he who has never been stubborn cast the first stone

Stubborn - and short-sighted people need love - not roasting!
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #127 - June 28, 2010, 01:45 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 28, 2010, 01:42 PM
1. That's because there are different theories.

2. None of the theories prove a soul.

There are different solutions to the hard poblem of conscineness, one of them is the soul, which *supposedly* was refuted *logically*.. I read the refutation: it was a game of words.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #128 - June 28, 2010, 01:46 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 28, 2010, 01:44 PM
Let he who has never been stubborn cast the first stone

Stubborn - and short-sighted people deserve love - not roasting!

oh, back to discussing Islam again, eh?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Tlaloc
- Aperture Science Test Subject
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #129 - June 28, 2010, 01:47 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:32 PM
Hassan,

The way things were created strongly suggest they were meant to be. The chances of a planet like Earth supporting life, the way it does, is practically zero. Yet we are here... no meteors raining on our heads, no solar winds frying our skins, etc, etc.

I think you need a quick course on probabilities.

You cannot apply probabilities to past events to decide how likely it is that some event was NOT random just because the chance of it happening randomly was too low and yet it happened.

It's vaguely like throwing one million dice and then conclude that randomness was not involved because the chance of such particular complex pattern of one million elements you are seeing in front of your eyes had only an infinitesimal chance of happening. ^_^

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #130 - June 28, 2010, 01:48 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:46 PM
oh, back to discussing Islam again, eh?

Yes, because I have absolutely no argument with Deism. (Well, apart from those who insist it is undeniably true that there is a God )
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #131 - June 28, 2010, 01:50 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 28, 2010, 01:33 PM
i did man i still think it applies to all people who hate what allah has sent down. It's also hard to reject what like every scholar in history has said.

Why would someone else who hates what Allah has sent down and tries to hinder people from his path be exempt from this statement?

If youread the verses from the beginning, it was comparing the two parties who were about to engage in the fight, the Muslims and the Kuffar. That's the context of the verse you shown me.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #132 - June 28, 2010, 01:51 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on June 28, 2010, 01:47 PM
I think you need a quick course on probabilities.

You cannot apply probabilities to past events to decide how likely it is that some event was NOT random just because the chance of it happening randomly was too low and yet it happened.

It's vaguely like throwing one million dice and then conclude that randomness was not involved because the chance of such particular complex pattern of one million elements you are seeing in front of your eyes had only an infinitesimal chance of happening. ^_^

I actually have a PhD in EE, so I do know a thing or two about probabilities (or stochastic processes, to be specific).

I'll explain with an example what I meant.. I'll copy/paste from another post.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Tlaloc
- Aperture Science Test Subject
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #133 - June 28, 2010, 01:51 PM

On the other hand, the concept of randomness is kinda like God.
It's axiomatic, and you have no way to prove that randomness actually exists.

It could be said that some people believe the God of Randomness ;P

Another interesting thing is that if you replace randomness with God, you kinda go from evolution to creationism.

Oh, I am rambling again

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
- DigDug
- Member
- *BANNED*
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #134 - June 28, 2010, 01:55 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:50 PM
If youread the verses from the beginning, it was comparing the two parties who were about to engage in the fight, the Muslims and the Kuffar. That's the context of the verse you shown me.

haha I know you have youre own opinions but why would another group of people doing the exact same thing be exempt from the statement.

It's like saying "we are going to be fighting the quraysh...the quraysh eat apples anyone who eats apples is going to hell."

Then I say "the chinese eat apples too" and you say that it only applies to the quraysh even though it syas "anyone who eats apples is going to hell"

does that make sense?

I'm an asshat.
- z10
- Pub Regular
- Imago Dei
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #135 - June 28, 2010, 01:58 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:45 PM
There are different solutions to the hard poblem of conscineness, one of them is the soul, which *supposedly* was refuted *logically*.. I read the refutation: it was a game of words.

Could you please give us a quick summary of the argument for a soul and its refutation? That is, unless you are referring to traditional dualism in line of Descartes.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #136 - June 28, 2010, 01:58 PM

@ DD

No, it doesn't. Here we have non believers who are out to destroy Muslims PLUS the Quran many times accused the Kuffar of Quraish of disbelieving out of pride and arrogance.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #137 - June 28, 2010, 01:59 PM

Quote from: z10 on June 28, 2010, 01:58 PM
Could you please give us a quick summary of the argument for a soul and its refutation? That is, unless you are referring to traditional dualism in line of Descartes.

that's what I'm referring to, yes.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Tlaloc
- Aperture Science Test Subject
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #138 - June 28, 2010, 01:59 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:51 PM
I actually have a PhD in Signal Processing, so I do know a thing or two about probabilities (or stochastic processes, to be specific).

Oh coolness!
Then why the misapplied reasoning? :S

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
- DigDug
- Member
- *BANNED*
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #139 - June 28, 2010, 02:01 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:58 PM
@ DD

No, it doesn't. Here we have non believers who are out to destroy Muslims PLUS the Quran many times accused the Kuffar of Quraish of disbelieving out of pride and arrogance.

but the verses dont say "because they are out to destroy the muslims" they say "because they hate what allah sent down"

I'm an asshat.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #140 - June 28, 2010, 02:02 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:42 PM
Ok, I heard that from a somewhat reasonable atheists before: "we don't know everything, let's wait... no God of the gaps, please!".

But I don't think it's an argument for God of the gaps.

My argument is that the proof for the existence of God is not undeniable. If you can pose one unimaginable reason for the existence of the Universe - then there may be others - which by their very nature we cannot comprehend. At least not at the moment and perhaps never.
- z10
- Pub Regular
- Imago Dei
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #141 - June 28, 2010, 02:05 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:59 PM
that's what I'm referring to, yes.

What refutation were you referring to? I can think of two refutations that are quite forceful and both are arguemtns from causation. In fact the first argument is so forceful that Descartes himself had to accept that he had no answer for it when he was pressed.
If you like, I can detail the arguments here.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #142 - June 28, 2010, 02:07 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on June 28, 2010, 01:59 PM
Oh coolness!
Then why the misapplied reasoning? :S

Check this out:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8240.msg207073#msg207073

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #143 - June 28, 2010, 02:11 PM

Quote from: Hassan on June 28, 2010, 02:02 PM
My argument is that the proof for the existence of God is not undeniable. If you can pose one unimaginable reason for the existence of the Universe - then there may be others - which by their very nature we cannot comprehend. At least not at the moment and perhaps never.

So you're basically saying, why care? Leave it to science to find the answer one day, and even if it never does, so what?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #144 - June 28, 2010, 02:12 PM

Quote from: z10 on June 28, 2010, 02:05 PM
What refutation were you referring to? I can think of two refutations that are quite forceful and both are arguemtns from causation. In fact the first argument is so forceful that Descartes himself had to accept that he had no answer for it when he was pressed.
If you like, I can detail the arguments here.

Ok, give me the most convincing one (but using simple language please )

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #145 - June 28, 2010, 02:14 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 28, 2010, 02:01 PM
but the verses dont say "because they are out to destroy the muslims" they say "because they hate what allah sent down"

Again you're ignoring the contxt and the flow of the verses.

You know what, forget about the context of this verse. ALL over the Quran, pride/arrogance was used many times to justify Hell torture. Check out my conversation with Hassan in the Exclusive Rooms.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.0

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #146 - June 28, 2010, 02:18 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 01:40 PM
What I'm saying is: atheists are every bit as stubborn as theists in their beliefs.

A muslims told me the reason why arrogance of non-belief was deplored by Allah. The reason is because he said Allah reserved the arrogant trait for himself only.

Yes, I thought it was a strange argument for a muslims to use in defence of Islam, but I have never come across it before. Is it actually true?

My Book
My Blog
- DigDug
- Member
- *BANNED*
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #147 - June 28, 2010, 02:22 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 02:14 PM
Again you're ignoring the contxt and the flow of the verses.

Youre entitled to your opinion but it also seems that every Muslim scholar in history ignores the flow of the verses in the same way I do.

Haha I know fuck the scholars, but im just saying that I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

Quote
You know what, forget about the context of this verse. ALL over the Quran, pride/arrogance was used many times to justify Hell torture. Check out my conversation with Hassan in the Exclusive Rooms.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.0

Could just explain in your opinion what the difference between poeple who disbelieve out of pride/arrogance and the other types of disbelievers is?

I'm an asshat.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #148 - June 28, 2010, 02:24 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 02:11 PM
So you're basically saying, why care? Leave it to science to find the answer one day, and even if it never does, so what?

Not at all, Debunker. We should certainly keep exploring every possibility and considering all theories try all ways of discovering the truth and meaning behind our lives and existence and what may lie beyond.

What I find an unreasonable is the position that the proof of God is undeniable. That it is a certainty.

I have nothing against the claim that belief in a creator is a reasonable and supportable belief.

But to say that it is certain and undeniable and any who doubt it are somehow at blameworthy or arrogant or prideful - is grossly unfair and untrue.
- debunker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
Reply #149 - June 28, 2010, 02:24 PM

Quote
A muslims told me the reason why arrogance of non-belief was deplored by Allah. The reason is because he said Allah reserved the arrogant trait for himself only.

Yes, I thought it was a strange argument for a muslims to use in defence of Islam, but I have never come across it before. Is it actually true?

Those are two different things... and God is NOT arrogant, He is proud (believes He is above all things and everyone.. men, on the other hand, get proud because of what they "achieved" when, ultimately, it's all given to them by God).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 7 ... 11 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »