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Theme Changer

 Topic: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)

 (Read 28823 times)
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  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #150 - June 28, 2010, 02:26 PM

    Youre entitled to your opinion but it also seems that every Muslim scholar in history ignores the flow of the verses in the same way I do.

    Haha I know fuck the scholars, but im just saying that I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

    How about you stop saying "every scholar in history"... just because Salafis claim that their views are the view of every scholar in history it's not necssarily so.

    Quote
    Could just explain in your opinion what the difference between poeple who disbelieve out of pride/arrogance and the other types of disbelievers is?


    When you got extra free time, read the link I posted (my conversation with Hassan).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #151 - June 28, 2010, 02:30 PM

    Well there are different forms of dualism so this argument refers to only the one formulated by Descartes. The problem is this: if you posit that the physical and the mental are completely different in kind - that they are two completely different substances - then how do you have interaction between the mental and physical? How can the mental causally affect the physical, ie when I will my arm to type, how does that happen? Where does the causal interaction take place?
    Descartes could not find an answer to this problem. Famously, he first said that all interactions between the mental and the physical take place in the pineal gland which is a ridiculous answer as I'm sure you can appreciate. Once he realised that this answer just pushed the problem back further, he said that the interaction takes places through a mediation of God or in other words, God provides an accidental interaction between the physical and the mental. Of course, that's just the first ever god-of-the-gaps argument.

    The reason why this argument is important is that causation cannot be lawfully described unless there is complete knowledge of the space-time position of the interaction. For example, if my arms moves then unless I can conclusively prove where the cause of that movement came from, there is no way I can prove that I was the cause. It could have been a mental entity outside of me for all I know, what possible differentiation could I have between two mental entities to determine who caused what unless I could give them a space-time location? Ofcourse, you can avoid this entire problem altogether if you state that all causation is every single time a miracle in itself and there are no laws governing it at all but I don't really think that is a viable option.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #152 - June 28, 2010, 02:31 PM

    How about you stop saying "every scholar in history"... just because Salafis claim that their views are the view of every scholar in history it's not necssarily so.


    Could you show me a tafsir of the verse that agrees with your opinion?

    Or an opinion of a scholar that agrees with yours over the issue we are talking about (disbelievers not being punished in hell for disbelieving in the quran/allah)

    Quote
    When you got extra free time, read the link I posted (my conversation with Hassan).


    It looks interesting but I was hoping you could give me a brief summary of the point you were trying to make.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #153 - June 28, 2010, 02:31 PM

    Not at all, Debunker. We should certainly keep exploring every possibility and considering all theories try all ways of discovering the truth and meaning behind our lives and existence and what may lie beyond.

    What I find an unreasonable is the position that the proof of God is undeniable. That it is a certainty.

    I have nothing against the claim that belief in a creator is a reasonable and supportable belief.

    But to say that it is certain and undeniable and any who doubt it are somehow at blameworthy or arrogant or prideful - is grossly unfair and untrue.


    Honestly Hassan, and please don't be offended, I think you're in denial and I think I know why (because you hate to believe there is a God who created this world).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #154 - June 28, 2010, 02:39 PM

    Quote
    Or an opinion of a scholar that agrees with yours over the issue we are talking about (disbelievers not being punished in hell for disbelieving in the quran/allah)


    Well, since I'm not very fond of scholars and their limitless intelligence, I'm not very familiar with their works. But even if I'm going to look, I'll do it in Arabic (wider search space) and it won't be very useful in this case.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #155 - June 28, 2010, 02:41 PM

    Well, since I'm not very fond of scholars and their limitless intelligence, I'm not very familiar with their works. But even if I'm going to look, I'll do it in Arabic (wider search space) and it won't be very useful in this case.


    Why wouldnt it be?

    Could you also atleast concede to me that every mufassirun disagrees with your interpretation of the verse?

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #156 - June 28, 2010, 02:42 PM

    I wilI will b living a straight edge lifestyle thoo


    Ian MacKaye is pleased

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OSnAPxyMzo

    I'm a person just like you
    But I've got better things to do
    Than sit around and fuck my head
    Hang out with the living dead
    Snort white shit up my nose
    Pass out at the shows


    Yeah, well I DON'T have better things to do, Ian, so shut your self-righteous ass up. Man Minor Threat did have a great fuckin sound, though.

    fuck you
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #157 - June 28, 2010, 02:42 PM

    Honestly Hassan, and please don't be offended, I think you're in denial and I think I know why (because you hate to believe there is a God who created this world).


    In denial that there is a God of some sort?

    Nope, not at all - I have said many times on this forum that I often think there is 'something', some unimaginable cosmic force that is beyond our understanding? That perhaps we are all a manifestation of "God" part of some unity that runs through the Universe - part of some whole that is beyond all our understanding.

    But I don't pretend that I know this for certain. It seems to me that those who claim to know this for certain are the ones in denial and are asking us to stop looking; "God did it - no need to look any further."

    They also tend to think that their particular definition of what this "God" is - is not only certain but the only true one.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #158 - June 28, 2010, 02:45 PM

    Well there are different forms of dualism so this argument refers to only the one formulated by Descartes. The problem is this: if you posit that the physical and the mental are completely different in kind - that they are two completely different substances - then how do you have interaction between the mental and physical? How can the mental causally affect the physical, ie when I will my arm to type, how does that happen? Where does the causal interaction take place?
    Descartes could not find an answer to this problem. Famously, he first said that all interactions between the mental and the physical take place in the pineal gland which is a ridiculous answer as I'm sure you can appreciate. Once he realised that this answer just pushed the problem back further, he said that the interaction takes places through a mediation of God or in other words, God provides an accidental interaction between the physical and the mental. Of course, that's just the first ever god-of-the-gaps argument.

    The reason why this argument is important is that causation cannot be lawfully described unless there is complete knowledge of the space-time position of the interaction. For example, if my arms moves then unless I can conclusively prove where the cause of that movement came from, there is no way I can prove that I was the cause. It could have been a mental entity outside of me for all I know, what possible differentiation could I have between two mental entities to determine who caused what unless I could give them a space-time location? Ofcourse, you can avoid this entire problem altogether if you state that all causation is every single time a miracle in itself and there are no laws governing it at all but I don't really think that is a viable option.


    Regarding the "interaction" part, just like the soul, it's part of the supernatural... Yes, I believe in the supernatural. And by the way, I don't think there exists any logical solution to the hard problem of conscienceness.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #159 - June 28, 2010, 02:46 PM

    Well this is an interesting read  pccoffee
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #160 - June 28, 2010, 02:46 PM

    Why wouldnt it be?

    Could you also atleast concede to me that every mufassirun disagrees with your interpretation of the verse?


    I'll have to read ALL their opinions first.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #161 - June 28, 2010, 02:50 PM

    @ Hassan

    Quote
    Nope, not at all - I have said many times on this forum that I often think there is 'something', some unimaginable cosmic force that is beyond our understanding? That perhaps we are all a manifestation of "God" part of some unity that runs through the Universe - part of some whole that is beyond all our understanding.


    Ok, so why can't you call this unimaginable cosmic force, God? Or do you have a specific definition for the word, God, that doesn't allow you to call this force, God?

    Quote
    But I don't pretend that I know this for certain. It seems to me that those who claim to know this for certain are the ones in denial and are asking us to stop looking; "God did it - no need to look any further."

     grin12

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #162 - June 28, 2010, 02:51 PM

    I'll have to read ALL their opinions first.


    Thanks amn...you know i respect you, I just want to point out that I'm not being crazy or closed minded or am I unable to understand the context. My opinion is inline with every single scholar in history (as far as I know) and I will look myself for another opinion that contradicts this.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #163 - June 28, 2010, 02:53 PM

    Regarding the "interaction" part, just like the soul, it's part of the supernatural... Yes, I believe in the supernatural. And by the way, I don't think there exists any logical solution to the hard problem of conscienceness.


    I understand that you believe in the supernatural and I'm sure like Descartes, that solves the problem for you which is perfectly fine. I just don't think it's fair to say that the refutation of dualism is "just a play of words" - it's actually a very strong argument I think and positing the supernatural doesn't make the argument silly, it just makes you bypass the problem.
    And yes, the overall problem of consciousness is extremely difficult, I don't think I can agree with you that it is logically impossible to solve because that seems an assumption of ignorance to me but difficult it is. I hope we can find a suitable answer one day.  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #164 - June 28, 2010, 02:55 PM

    @ DD

    Quote
    Thanks amn...you know i respect you, I just want to point out that I'm not being crazy or closed minded or am I unable to understand the context. My opinion is inline with every single scholar in history (as far as I know) and I will look myself for another opinion that contradicts this.


    I understand where you come from. Salafis have been trained to copy/memorize/recycle/repackage/revere the opinions of old scholars who happened to win by persecuting their contemporaries.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #165 - June 28, 2010, 02:55 PM

    Happy for you! Great news!!!  Afro  far away hug
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #166 - June 28, 2010, 02:56 PM

    Ok, so why can't you call this unimaginable cosmic force, God? Or do you have a specific definition for the word, God, that doesn't allow you to call this force, God?


    I don't mind using the word God, but it has been so identified with the Abrahamic definition of God that I usually qualify what I mean because I don't want it to be associated with that man-made God.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #167 - June 28, 2010, 02:56 PM

    I understand that you believe in the supernatural and I'm sure like Descartes, that solves the problem for you which is perfectly fine. I just don't think it's fair to say that the refutation of dualism is "just a play of words" - it's actually a very strong argument I think and positing the supernatural doesn't make the argument silly, it just makes you bypass the problem.
    And yes, the overall problem of consciousness is extremely difficult, I don't think I can agree with you that it is logically impossible to solve because that seems an assumption of ignorance to me but difficult it is. I hope we can find a suitable answer one day.  Smiley


    well, at least you admit it's still not solved.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #168 - June 28, 2010, 02:57 PM

    I don't mind using the word God, but it has been so identified with the Abrahamic definition of God that I usually qualify what I mean because I don't want it to be associated with that man-made God.


    But Deists use it all the time... so are you a Deist? but you just don't want to use that word?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #169 - June 28, 2010, 03:02 PM

    @ DD

    I understand where you come from. Salafis have been trained to copy/memorize/recycle/repackage/revere the opinions of old scholars who happened to win by persecuting their contemporaries.


    haah that was a little bit of a cheap shot.

    but im not just talking about scholars that "salafis" recognize. I'm aware of muatazilite beliefs and they are not inline with what you are claiming. I will accept from you the opinion of ANY scholar wether that be someone the salafis persecuted or even someone who was executed for their differnt beliefs.

    Basically any scholar in history calling themselves Muslim that holds the same opinion as you.

    Unless you do this I don't think it is at all fair to say anyone is not understanding the concept in question. In fact, common sense would state that you are the one who doesn't understand.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #170 - June 28, 2010, 03:02 PM

    @ DD

    I just read the opinions of two (Jalayn/Ibn Kathir), could you please show me where did you get your info from?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #171 - June 28, 2010, 03:03 PM

    I probably said this a 100 times in this forum. If you believe in the Creator God but you honestly don't believe in the Quran, then at least you won't go to Hell.

    You don't get it Debunker. Belief is not an act or a duty that one must fulfill. We can't control our beliefs.
    I can force myself to pray, fast, go to Hajj, read the Quran....ect but I can't force myself to believe in something I don't believe in.

    So your statement is worthless. You say that mere belief in God can spare you from Hell even if you didn't perform any form of worship. But even if I tried to override my brain and deceive myself into believing in God, won't the all-knowing God know that I don't really believe in him and that I'm just making it up?



    P.S: I'm going to post in the one-on-one thread soon.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #172 - June 28, 2010, 03:08 PM

    But Deists use it all the time... so are you a Deist? but you just don't want to use that word?


    Well my views on this are fluid and swing from Agnostic Atheist to Deist to Pantheist and so on...

    I think I'd rather avoid labels as they end up boxing me in and I don't like that.

    I like the Arabic expressions لاأدري  (Agnostic, but lit. "I-don't-knower") or لاديني ("No-religioner").

    That's me! Concerning religion, I'm a "No-religioner" and concerning God I'm a "I-don't-knower"  grin12
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #173 - June 28, 2010, 03:08 PM

    @ IA

    Quote
    So your statement is worthless. You say that mere belief in God can spare you from Hell even if you didn't perform any form of worship. But even if I tried to override my brain and deceive myself into believing in God, won't the all-knowing God know that I don't really believe in him and that I'm just making it up?


    where the hell did you get that from?

    btw, in other discussions (like the one in darkeyed intro thread) you keep saying things I didn't say and then discuss them. Weird!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #174 - June 28, 2010, 03:12 PM

    @ DD

    I just read the opinions of two (Jalayn/Ibn Kathir), could you please show me where did you get your info from?


    the following quote is from tafsir ibn kathir

    Quote
    The Reward of the Disbelievers and the Believers Allah says,

    [الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ]

    (Those who disbelieve) meaning, in the Ayat of Allah.

    [وَصُدُّواْ]

    (and hinder (men)) Others.

    [عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَضَلَّ أَعْمَـلَهُمْ]

    (from the path of Allah, He will render their deeds vain.) meaning, He renders their deeds vain and futile, and He denies them any rewards or blessings for them. This is similar to His saying,

    [وَقَدِمْنَآ إِلَى مَا عَمِلُواْ مِنْ عَمَلٍ فَجَعَلْنَاهُ هَبَآءً مَّنثُوراً ]

    (And We will approach what they have done of deeds and make them as dispersed dust.) (25:23) Allah then says,

    [وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّـلِحَاتِ]

    (And those who believe and do righteous good deeds,) Which means that their hearts and souls have believed, and their limbs and their hidden and apparent acts have complied with Allah's Law.

    [وَءَامَنُواْ بِمَا نُزِّلَ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ]

    (And believe in that which has been sent down to Muhammad) Adding this statement to the previous one is a method of adding a specific meaning to a general one. This provides proof that after Muhammad's advent, believing in him is a required condition for the true faith


    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #175 - June 28, 2010, 03:15 PM

    @ DD

    What verse number is this?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #176 - June 28, 2010, 03:19 PM

    @ DD

    What verse number is this?


    its the explanation of the verses in (the english version) of tafsir ibn kathir

    heres is the explanation of the entire surah in question that im using. http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp <--- it wont let me link directly you just have to select surah 47 from the list

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #177 - June 28, 2010, 03:21 PM

    Hassan,

    The way things were created strongly suggest they were meant to be. The chances of a planet like Earth supporting life, the way it does, is practically zero. Yet we are here... no meteors raining on our heads, no solar winds frying our skins, etc, etc.

    For now.  You seem to be forgetting the 5 mass extinctions Allah put us through.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #178 - June 28, 2010, 03:23 PM

    Not to mention the amount of dead planets out there.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #179 - June 28, 2010, 03:24 PM

    @ DD

    Here's Ibn Kathir on 47:8-9
    http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?nType=1&nSora=47&nAya=8&taf=KATHEER&l=arb&tashkeel=0
    http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?nType=1&nSora=47&nAya=9&taf=KATHEER&l=arb&tashkeel=0

    Basically, rephrasing what the verses say.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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