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Theme Changer

 Topic: Parents and children

 (Read 5589 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Parents and children
     OP - July 02, 2010, 05:23 AM

    All parents talk about how it is their duty to raise their kids properly to "teach them how to be good people" -- do we have a duty to try to help our parents become better people? And if so, how does one go about doing that? Is it possible?
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #1 - July 02, 2010, 05:45 AM

    I think in humanity we should try and help everyone to become better people, the people who are in our lives.

    But particularly with religion and parents, it's best to give them a chance but essentially if them being religious isn't harming anyone, then they are grown adults and can make their own minds up. Same as you wish as an adult to be left to make your own choices in life, without people pushing their ideas on you.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #2 - July 02, 2010, 07:35 AM

    All parents talk about how it is their duty to raise their kids properly to "teach them how to be good people" -- do we have a duty to try to help our parents become better people? And if so, how does one go about doing that? Is it possible?


    what a heavy concept, i like your thoughts zoomi.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #3 - July 02, 2010, 07:38 AM

    Parents don't play as big a role in raising their kids as they like to think. Peers and society play huge roles.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #4 - July 02, 2010, 07:39 AM

    I think the best lessons you can teach your children are

    1: Be nice to people, help those in need, consider their feelings.
    2: Be open minded, learn as much as you can, never think you have all the answers, accept things based on proof and not authority.

    Religious people can easily teach their children the values of their religion without having to mention WHY they are their values, i.e. without indoctrinating them.  If God is real then they will come to God through step 2 naturally, if you need to convince your children your religion is true before the analytical part of their brain develops then your religion is obviously false.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #5 - July 02, 2010, 02:59 PM

    The only duty one can really have is to lead by example. Apart from that, one must accept that one can only be responsible for one's own actions and cannot change another no matter how beneficial it would be.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #6 - July 02, 2010, 03:34 PM

    The only duty one can really have is to lead by example.


    But then you have the duty to set a good example and need to define what such a good example should be Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #7 - July 02, 2010, 03:45 PM

    Yes and I am not sure if I am in a position to outline a completely worked-out moral system. My point is only that nobody can be forced to be "good" - the only way to make people good is by being so yourself and hoping that they find it a worthy example to follow.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #8 - July 02, 2010, 03:50 PM

    Parents don't play as big a role in raising their kids as they like to think. Peers and society play huge roles.


    Agree and disagree.  What a parent does to a child can impact on how they relate with their peers and society, which in turn impacts on their life.  It's the unholy cycle.

    I think with parents it's harder to teach them because they:

    1 - Will always see you as children no matter how old you get

    2 - Will always assume their age gives them more wisdom

    3 - Are alot more fixed in their way of seeing the world

    On the other hand children are like sponges, or blank canvasses, they are ready and eager to be taught new things.  Parents are like trying to paint a new picture onto an old picture, it's going to be harder.

    I have to be honest, I don't even waste my time.  My parents can not be reasoned with therefore they can not be taught.  They are stubborn and pig headed, set in their ways and blind to the results of that way.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #9 - July 04, 2010, 02:15 PM

    I think it all depends on how the parents were brought up I guess.
    I don't know if I can ever make my parents open minded as i am, they are just
    too close minded, I don't bother trying.

    Parents think they're like 'god' they are high and mighty, my dad always say
    'is that how you talk to your parent' like as if he's high and mighty, it pisses me off.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #10 - July 16, 2010, 02:58 PM

    I think in humanity we should try and help everyone to become better people, the people who are in our lives.


    +1
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #11 - July 16, 2010, 03:03 PM

    Yes and I am not sure if I am in a position to outline a completely worked-out moral system. My point is only that nobody can be forced to be "good" - the only way to make people good is by being so yourself and hoping that they find it a worthy example to follow.


    I completely agree, I think I should have asked whether or not we should be concerned with the state of our parent's affairs or sort of disregard them. And moreover, how we ought to go about setting an example. Unfortunately, it is true the older your get the more you tend to get set in your own ways. This is not the universal case, but it's harder to lead by example for your parents than it is for a parent to lead by example for their kids.

  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #12 - July 16, 2010, 03:23 PM

    Agree and disagree.  What a parent does to a child can impact on how they relate with their peers and society, which in turn impacts on their life.  It's the unholy cycle.

    I think with parents it's harder to teach them because they:

    1 - Will always see you as children no matter how old you get

    2 - Will always assume their age gives them more wisdom

    3 - Are alot more fixed in their way of seeing the world

    On the other hand children are like sponges, or blank canvasses, they are ready and eager to be taught new things.  Parents are like trying to paint a new picture onto an old picture, it's going to be harder.


    Hahah I'm sorry I didn't read this post before I posted above. +1000. (Can I plus a thousand? I still don't quite know what it means...)

    I have to be honest, I don't even waste my time.  My parents can not be reasoned with therefore they can not be taught.  They are stubborn and pig headed, set in their ways and blind to the results of that way.


    I feel exactly like this, but at the same time I can't ignore it. I'm having huge problems with my Dad right now, he is in a bad spot and he doesn't seem to be making progress, and I don't know what to do. He's been divorced three times, just went through his last one about two years ago when he was 51. He's been in a major depression cycle ever since and has taken using religion as a crutch to help him, which I don't really have a problem with, except that he's not really taking any other measures to get out of his situation.

    He rambles about his ex-wife (my step-mother --  my real mother and him got divorced when I was 2 or 3, was too young to remember it), he always asks me if I know anything about her or what shes doing, rambles on "if only I had done this or that, blah blah." I understand at first that it was very hard for him but its going on about 2.5 years now and I think he just needs to forget about her, but he refuses to move on. Sometimes he mentions suicide, but says that he has god so he (probably) wont. I don't think he will -- I sort of just think he wants attention when he says that.

    Not only that, but he tends to be abrasive, can be verbally abusive, doesn't thank or praise very much, expects a lot from other people, always talks a LOT but rarely listens. In most ways I am not surprised his wife left him, as guilty as I feel for saying that. He has mood swings and he insults me and my husband regularly, if he is in a bad mood he will rag on us for something, whether its not cleaning up his dishes or not working enough, or taking a philosophy degree, or looking at him the wrong way, really anything. I secretly think he hates that we don't work a lot because we are content with less, whereas he works all the time and buys like 3 big screen tv's. I also sort of think he wants our marriage to fail so it will make him feel better for having three failed marriages.

    At one hand, I feel incredibly guilty for not wanting to be around him all the time, but it usually just puts me in a bad mood. If he is not rambling about his ex-wife he is insulting us or bragging about how much he can bench press (which is boring, but at least better than insults). On the other, I feel like him and my brother are two of the only people he has in his life who really love him, he has some friends but not enough so that he is still alone a lot of the time. I feel like I should just be stoic and stick it out through the insults and him trying to tell us we're "no good, lazy kids who are stupid and can't do anything right," just so that at least he will have someone around.

    I have to come home to him crying or he will call me crying sometimes when I am back at home when he is alone and it just breaks my heart, and then I become inconsolable and depressed. I just want to help him make his life better, so that he can make friends and be happy and maybe even find a new girlfriend eventually, and finally be well-balanced, healthy, open-minded, and content with life. I'm so lost I don't know what to do. I don't want him to die alone and miserable.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #13 - July 16, 2010, 03:44 PM

    Its good that you are there for him at least.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #14 - July 16, 2010, 03:55 PM

    I'm so lost I don't know what to do. I don't want him to die alone and miserable.



    :(

    You are a caring person.  far away hug
    I guess the most you can do is keep at it and keep your own life in persepective...which it seems you are doing well. Smiley

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #15 - July 16, 2010, 03:56 PM

    :(

    You are a caring person.  far away hug
    I guess the most you can do is keep at it and keep your own life in perspective...which it seems you are doing well. Smiley


    +1

     far away hug
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #16 - July 16, 2010, 04:43 PM

    There is a silver lining to the above situation zoomi - as much as he is using religion as a crutch he is also trying to be more and more like Jesus - which is a perfectly good role model to follow.  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #17 - July 16, 2010, 04:56 PM

    as long as in the end he doesnt get hung out to dry

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #18 - July 16, 2010, 05:55 PM

    Parents don't play as big a role in raising their kids as they like to think. Peers and society play huge roles.

    I agree with Abood, i hate this conformity bullshit, it's annoying

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #19 - July 16, 2010, 07:20 PM

    There is a silver lining to the above situation zoomi - as much as he is using religion as a crutch he is also trying to be more and more like Jesus - which is a perfectly good role model to follow.  Smiley


    Not really, he just says "Jesus is perfect, I am not, therefore I will continue to act this way"
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #20 - July 16, 2010, 07:43 PM

    :(

    You are a caring person.  far away hug
    I guess the most you can do is keep at it and keep your own life in persepective...which it seems you are doing well. Smiley

    +2

    Hope things get better, zoomi. hugs

    One good thing about the South Asian culture is that the elderly generally have lots of relatives/friends to keep them happy.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #21 - July 16, 2010, 07:45 PM

    Agree and disagree.  What a parent does to a child can impact on how they relate with their peers and society, which in turn impacts on their life.  It's the unholy cycle.

    I think with parents it's harder to teach them because they:

    1 - Will always see you as children no matter how old you get

    2 - Will always assume their age gives them more wisdom

    3 - Are alot more fixed in their way of seeing the world

    On the other hand children are like sponges, or blank canvasses, they are ready and eager to be taught new things.  Parents are like trying to paint a new picture onto an old picture, it's going to be harder.

    I have to be honest, I don't even waste my time.  My parents can not be reasoned with therefore they can not be taught.  They are stubborn and pig headed, set in their ways and blind to the results of that way.


    What she said...  but I suppose going your own way and doing what you think is right might make them more accepting in the late future.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #22 - July 17, 2010, 10:34 AM

    Hahah I'm sorry I didn't read this post before I posted above. +1000. (Can I plus a thousand? I still don't quite know what it means...)

    I feel exactly like this, but at the same time I can't ignore it. I'm having huge problems with my Dad right now, he is in a bad spot and he doesn't seem to be making progress, and I don't know what to do. He's been divorced three times, just went through his last one about two years ago when he was 51. He's been in a major depression cycle ever since and has taken using religion as a crutch to help him, which I don't really have a problem with, except that he's not really taking any other measures to get out of his situation.

    He rambles about his ex-wife (my step-mother --  my real mother and him got divorced when I was 2 or 3, was too young to remember it), he always asks me if I know anything about her or what shes doing, rambles on "if only I had done this or that, blah blah." I understand at first that it was very hard for him but its going on about 2.5 years now and I think he just needs to forget about her, but he refuses to move on. Sometimes he mentions suicide, but says that he has god so he (probably) wont. I don't think he will -- I sort of just think he wants attention when he says that.

    Not only that, but he tends to be abrasive, can be verbally abusive, doesn't thank or praise very much, expects a lot from other people, always talks a LOT but rarely listens. In most ways I am not surprised his wife left him, as guilty as I feel for saying that. He has mood swings and he insults me and my husband regularly, if he is in a bad mood he will rag on us for something, whether its not cleaning up his dishes or not working enough, or taking a philosophy degree, or looking at him the wrong way, really anything. I secretly think he hates that we don't work a lot because we are content with less, whereas he works all the time and buys like 3 big screen tv's. I also sort of think he wants our marriage to fail so it will make him feel better for having three failed marriages.

    At one hand, I feel incredibly guilty for not wanting to be around him all the time, but it usually just puts me in a bad mood. If he is not rambling about his ex-wife he is insulting us or bragging about how much he can bench press (which is boring, but at least better than insults). On the other, I feel like him and my brother are two of the only people he has in his life who really love him, he has some friends but not enough so that he is still alone a lot of the time. I feel like I should just be stoic and stick it out through the insults and him trying to tell us we're "no good, lazy kids who are stupid and can't do anything right," just so that at least he will have someone around.

    I have to come home to him crying or he will call me crying sometimes when I am back at home when he is alone and it just breaks my heart, and then I become inconsolable and depressed. I just want to help him make his life better, so that he can make friends and be happy and maybe even find a new girlfriend eventually, and finally be well-balanced, healthy, open-minded, and content with life. I'm so lost I don't know what to do. I don't want him to die alone and miserable.



    hugs  I wish I could be more like you in regards to my father, but I can't.  I'm not even sure I care enough anymore.  I feel like I have grieved for my father already, so even though I know he is dying, I can't swallow my anger and go and see him, so that he doesn't die before we make up.  (so everybody tells me, "you must make up with your father, he is dying, you will never forgive yourself").

    How can we make up though?  I don't care enough to pretend I'm a muslim again, and he doesn't care enough about me to accept me as a non muslim.

    I wish I was more like you, and so many other ex muslims here, who play a part for the sake of their parents.  Especially when I hear about how selfish and controlling some of those parents are.

    I know for you, it's less playing a part, than it is just tolerating his behaviour towards you and your husband when he gets in his moods.  It's difficult dealing with depressed people who lash out at others, you want to help them, but it is very hurtful to you to do so because you become the target of their anger.

    I wouldn't know how to advise you right now, you care about your father, and you care for him too, it boils down to 2 choices, you stop doing that in order to stand up for what you see as your right to not be insulted, judged, and criticised all the time, or you keep going as you are in order to carry on caring for him.  You won't be able to change him though, or fix him, or teach him a better way of seeing the world and the things that have happened to him.  He is a parent, he is a grown up, and you can't teach an old dog new tricks as the saying goes. 

    I hope you find some way to strike a balance within yourself, but for me I would distance myself, my dad is a grown up, he should be smart enough to realise that I am rejecting him for his behaviour towards me, he is just as capable of making the choice to come to me, he doesn't, therefore I know he doesn't care, which makes staying away from him everyday, and feeling less guilt over him dying alone, that much easier.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #23 - July 19, 2010, 12:12 AM

     far away hug thanks for all the advice ms. ella, I feel sort of comforted knowing others are in the same situation,
    and thanks everyone else, sorry this turned into a ranty thread from me, it's been bothering me a lot lately and I have to leave back home soon and I worry for him when I'm not in the city anymore.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #24 - July 19, 2010, 12:00 PM

    I feel sort of comforted knowing others are in the same situation,

    Me too. hugs  My parents are control freaks and to this day they are insisting I revert to Islam; and what annoys me a bit is that they are witholding some key documents of mine (e.g my Kenyan birth certificate), and are trying to blackmail me back into Islam with them. finmad
    Furthermore, it will be more difficult for me to move home without their help.  I'll have to rely on myself and some friends, but I can manage that.

    and thanks everyone else, sorry this turned into a ranty thread from me, it's been bothering me a lot lately and I have to leave back home soon and I worry for him when I'm not in the city anymore.

    Not at all.  I too have been thinking about the extent to which we should put up with our parent's power games, and how we should handle them.  After joining this forum and writing my intro thread, I was a little unsure of the reaction I would get.  Would I be called evil (for seemingly fighting with my parents) or would I be sympathised with?  My behaviour towards my parents came naturally after years of frustration.  But I still think I am erring on the side of restraint, even to this day.  Although, I don't want to be walked all over, I don't want to become control freaks like them.  I want to be a better person than that.

    And I don't want to react to events, I will follow my own principles. Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #25 - July 19, 2010, 02:31 PM

    Me too. hugs  My parents are control freaks and to this day they are insisting I revert to Islam; and what annoys me a bit is that they are witholding some key documents of mine (e.g my Kenyan birth certificate), and are trying to blackmail me back into Islam with them. finmad
    Furthermore, it will be more difficult for me to move home without their help.  I'll have to rely on myself and some friends, but I can manage that.
    Not at all.  I too have been thinking about the extent to which we should put up with our parent's power games, and how we should handle them.  After joining this forum and writing my intro thread, I was a little unsure of the reaction I would get.  Would I be called evil (for seemingly fighting with my parents) or would I be sympathised with?  My behaviour towards my parents came naturally after years of frustration.  But I still think I am erring on the side of restraint, even to this day.  Although, I don't want to be walked all over, I don't want to become control freaks like them.  I want to be a better person than that.

    And I don't want to react to events, I will follow my own principles. Smiley


    Brother hugs

    This is my perspective on parents. They have raised me and I appreciate that. I even told my mother that, thank you for giving birth to me, for those 9 months. And for not aborting me. And my dad was like It's all thanks to Allah  Roll Eyes Dude didn't get what I was trying to say, but my mom did.

    Any case I love my parents but I reject their authority. I am a grown man. I reject their infallibility. They err like I do. When we are children our parents (especially our mothers) are our Gods and Goddesses. We worship them, rely on them for everything. And I will always be grateful for this. But now I see them as adults, as people with their own distinct personalities, even if they have a fused parental personality as well Grin

    The power game and emotional blackmail doesn't work anymore because of this. They have lost that authority. And really it comes from you, from your own acceptance of their authority. I think parents can have too much power and dictate too much.

    Holding your personal documents is an infringement against you as an adult. It's not right. There is nothing to be ashamed of. They should be ashamed of themselves.
  • Re: Parents and children
     Reply #26 - July 30, 2010, 12:10 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72vjFkJ_zR8&playnext=1&videos=ovTdFYlPwgg

    Sex booze and rock&roll
    you know
    the finer things in life
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