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Theme Changer

 Topic: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka

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  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #150 - October 07, 2011, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: Abood on October 07, 2011, 03:30 PM
    Yeh, I think you're right. Americans fear big government when it comes to economic issues, with all the rhetoric of "The American Dream",


    Not just economic issues. There are a lot of relatively little things we tend to chafe at too when it comes to regulating personal behavior-- any such regulations currently in place were preceded and/or accompanied by decades of widespread fear-mongering propaganda in the media and by politicians (e.g. drug laws, anti-smoking laws, gun laws, etc.)

    Quote
    but they don't when it comes to security.


    Eh, you'd be surprised. There are a lot of what I call "rank-and-file" ideological right-wingers (not the pundits or political establishment) I've encountered in America, both online and in the real world, who absolutely despise the Feds and police in general, the GOP/right-wing pundits and political establishment might be able to get some of them on board with stuff against foreign terrorists as their nationalism (and sometimes racism) trumps their hatred of the state security apparatus, but they don't even get all them-- look at all the right-wing Ron Paul supporters. Even a lot of those naturally inclined towards authoritarianism tend to distrust the state.

    Now, all that being said, you run into four problems:

    1. That rank-and-file who truly does distrust the state security apparatus often values other issues more and the right-wing establishment knows how to play them on that.

    2. There's a sizeable portion of the right-wing rank-and-file who is authoritarian without any qualification.

    3. The right-wing leadership in government and the media is straight-up authoritarian because they have a direct interest in a strong state.

    4. MOST IMPORTANTLY, a lot of people, whatever their general political leanings, aren't strongly motivated to support or oppose an authoritarian state out of ideological reasons, but, as I stated in my previous post, I think for most people fear will trump any other concerns.

    Quote
    It's just really obnoxious when far-right pundits talk about the left being "pro-government", as if they're not.


    Agreed. I used to say they had co-opted the orthodox libertarian position, but I've been finding that the orthodox libertarians in this country have also allowed and in some cases encouraged their positions be cynically co-opted by the reactionary right.
    fuck you
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #151 - October 07, 2011, 05:13 PM
    Quote from: DH on October 07, 2011, 09:11 AM
    They're not though. And while they're not it provides a very useful precedent. In fact, if I were a german I wouldn't be in any great hurry to do away with anti-Nazi legislation.

     of course not.  But then why harp on the prohibition against proselytizing in Islam countries? Or against the burning of flags and ransaking of embassies in the cartoon affair? After all they are banning ideological threats that represent hateful ideologies to them.  And if you talk to  them you know what they cite as collaboration with their ideas? The general European ban on Holocaust denial and the ban on Nazi uniforms. The same law you find " useful" they find just as " useful".  There isn't much difference between your thought process and the one of those supposed totalitarian " Nazi like" ideologies you supposedly detest. You both just want the "right" kind of authoritarianism to use violence against people who think different.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #152 - October 07, 2011, 05:18 PM
    Fuckin A deus
    fuck you
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #153 - October 07, 2011, 06:00 PM
    This ridiculous topic again? I don't see how anyone can support any type of clothing ban.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #154 - October 07, 2011, 06:06 PM
    We are NOT free to wear whatever we like. All societies moderates what its members can wear.
    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #155 - October 07, 2011, 06:11 PM

    I like re-posting my work  Afro

    Quote from: billy on April 05, 2011, 10:09 AM

     I agree that the state shouldn't arbitrate on attire, and notwithstanding the rights of private premises or companies, businesses and employers to stipulate that faces must be able to be seen, burqa wearers should be free to advertise themselves as genital stumps covered in black to prevent them getting raped, and ambassadors for the most hateful misogynistic patriachal uncivilised opression on earth, including the advertisement that all women are responsible for their own rape, all men are rapists, and all women who do not wear this costume are sluts.

    I just wish that folks would stand up and actually say all that, call a spade a spade, and actually do what is best about a free society - criticise and describe truthfully backward misogynistic hatred when it manifests in backward symbols rooted in primitive notions, which is exactly what the burqa is.

    One last thing - the bikini and the burqa are not the same thing. There is no equivalency between them. This canard seems to get thrown around so casually, such has it been accepted, but it is a mendacious zero sum coupling, which clouds the issue completely.

    The bikini is worn by women when they go to the beach or the swimming pool. It is not an everyday costume. Compare like with like. Its Burqa or Normal Clothing With Face Showing.

    (The thing about choice as well..........its dishonest and partial to talk about choice without mentioning the deep coercive practises that girls and women who wear burqa are subjected to by families and communities. Without that acceptance of that fact, this discussion is totally unrealistic)



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #156 - October 07, 2011, 06:14 PM
    Vain!  Wink
    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #157 - October 07, 2011, 06:26 PM


    The problem is that as a liberal, secular society we should have confidence in our values.

    Notwithstanding private businesses, institutions and organisations that stipulate facial recognition at all times because of work or security, we shouldn't be talking about banning the burqa. Thats not the way to go about things.

    The way to go about things is to without apology, describe it for the horrible symbol and practise that it is, the assertions that it makes, without any inhibition, and morally and even materially support all those Muslim individuals, activists and movements, and secular liberal anti-misogynist non Muslims in the UK that campaign and confront the symbol and the warped, woman hating, primitive, patriarchal perversity that underlies it. In other words, take a stance for what is right and what we believe in, rather than resorting to a reflex to ban something, and immediately add fuel to the grievance culture of Islamic politics, amongst other things.

    And I'd include in that, public money to organisations and activists who specifically campaign against the burqa and who help women wearing it.

    One good thing that could come of this is a very real introspection and debate about the various societal coercions involved in burqa-Islam, and notions of freedom of conscience in the face of this reactionary culture.

    Banning it swivels that debate around the wrong way - those who perpetuate burqa-Islam should be on the moral backfoot, all the time, relentlessly, without mercy.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #158 - October 07, 2011, 07:07 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 05, 2011, 10:09 AM
    I agree that the state shouldn't arbitrate on attire, and notwithstanding the rights of private premises or companies, businesses and employers to stipulate that faces must be able to be seen, burqa wearers should be free to advertise themselves as genital stumps covered in black to prevent them getting raped, and ambassadors for the most hateful misogynistic patriachal uncivilised opression on earth, including the advertisement that all women are responsible for their own rape, all men are rapists, and all women who do not wear this costume are sluts.



    Ummm I don't think they see it like that. If burka/niqab wearers see other women who don't wear the same clothing as "sluts" does that mean hijabis think the same of non-hijabis?
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #159 - October 07, 2011, 07:10 PM
    .
    Attached image is missing * male-dominated.jpg (61.17 KB, 600x460 - viewed 464 times.)
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #160 - October 07, 2011, 07:23 PM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on October 07, 2011, 07:07 PM
    Ummm I don't think they see it like that. If burka/niqab wearers see other women who don't wear the same clothing as "sluts" does that mean hijabis think the same of non-hijabis?


    Ultimately that is the notion that it is predicated on - the idea of women needing to be covered up lest they 'inspire' lust.

    The hijab is predicated on similar notions, but I make a qualitative difference between it and the burqa, even though I don't personally like the hijab and what it stands for, I don't classify the symbols in the same way,  although they are related. Small mercies though.

    All of this of course with the proviso of the individual conscience of women who wear the hijab and the burqa - having known many who do wear the hijab, I know that there is very often a vast gap between their individual conscience and the compromises with that conscience that the hijab represents.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #161 - October 07, 2011, 08:03 PM
    As an American I support freedom, but I can't support something that uses freedom to suppress the freedoms of others. Which is what I fear the burqa is encouraging.

    The ban in itself is silly, but Europe isn't like America. The immigrants I feel have a different kind of mindset, they don't generally care about the host country or its traditions. They only wish to form their own subculture communities whilst scorning the culture of the host country. This is why Europe is getting antsy about losing its cultures and ideals to foreign influences which continue to grow. I feel like Europe has to force the pill of integration down their throats. In America various cultures usually live and blend together without much conflict, because in the end everyone respects the main ideals of the host countries and they work with it. I mean I see Muslims ad Jews shopping in the same place, everyone can comfortably occupy the same space. I mean there may be a few burqas here who get weird looks but no one is pressuring other women to do it to.

     France which really wants to just be done with religions used to control people's lifestyles, like what happened back in the 1700s that's why the revolution happened in the first place.
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #162 - October 07, 2011, 08:24 PM
    Swiss could ban it too.

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-09-28/switzerland-may-ban-burqas-as-lawmakers-vote-down-with-masks-.html
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #163 - October 07, 2011, 08:27 PM
    If they want to ban it then thats their choice as a society
    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #164 - October 07, 2011, 08:47 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 07, 2011, 07:23 PM
    Ultimately that is the notion that it is predicated on - the idea of women needing to be covered up lest they 'inspire' lust.




    That is how many muslim males see it and perhaps even the niqabi salafi Anjem Choudary type, but I don't think that's how the vast majority of muslimahs see it. I always thought they had more taqwa than other muslimahs.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #165 - October 07, 2011, 08:54 PM

    Because self-abnegation is a form of taqwa? Thats a comforting thing for them to say to themselves, as to why they should annihilate themselves in physical form into a piece of cattle in a black cotton cage. But its not where that is rooted at all.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #166 - October 07, 2011, 09:01 PM
    Quote from: Sakura02 on October 07, 2011, 08:03 PM
    As an American I support freedom, but I can't support something that uses freedom to suppress the freedoms of others. Which is what I fear the burqa is encouraging.



    How does it do that?

    Quote from: Sakura02 on October 07, 2011, 08:03 PM
    The ban in itself is silly, but Europe isn't like America. The immigrants I feel have a different kind of mindset, they don't generally care about the host country or its traditions. They only wish to form their own subculture communities whilst scorning the culture of the host country. This is why Europe is getting antsy about losing its cultures and ideals to foreign influences which continue to grow. I feel like Europe has to force the pill of integration down their throats. In America various cultures usually live and blend together without much conflict, because in the end everyone respects the main ideals of the host countries and they work with it. I mean I see Muslims ad Jews shopping in the same place, everyone can comfortably occupy the same space. I mean there may be a few burqas here who get weird looks but no one is pressuring other women to do it to.



    True, Europe is very different to the US and so are the muslims, Europe won't lost its culture as long as the immigrants don't become the majority. I think Muslims and Jews shop in the same places here too, I don't remember seeing any separation walls or halal only shopping centres. Yeah, they don't pressurise people here either, for the past 3 years I've lived next door to a niqabi and burka wearing mother-in-law, they've never tried to give me 'dawah' or anything.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #167 - October 07, 2011, 09:07 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 07, 2011, 08:54 PM
    Because self-abnegation is a form of taqwa? Thats a comforting thing for them to say to themselves, as to why they should annihilate themselves in physical form into a piece of cattle in a black cotton cage. But its not where that is rooted at all.




    It is. Putting your own desires and feelings to a side-for the sake of Allah! Yeah ok whatever, you know muslimahs better than they know themselves.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #168 - October 07, 2011, 09:07 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on October 07, 2011, 05:13 PM
    of course not.  But then why harp on the prohibition against proselytizing in Islam countries? Or against the burning of flags and ransaking of embassies in the cartoon affair? After all they are banning ideological threats that represent hateful ideologies to them.  And if you talk to  them you know what they cite as collaboration with their ideas? The general European ban on Holocaust denial and the ban on Nazi uniforms. The same law you find " useful" they find just as " useful".  There isn't much difference between your thought process and the one of those supposed totalitarian " Nazi like" ideologies you supposedly detest. You both just want the "right" kind of authoritarianism to use violence against people who think different.

    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on October 07, 2011, 05:18 PM
    Fuckin A deus

    Yes.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #169 - October 07, 2011, 09:16 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 07, 2011, 08:54 PM
    a black cotton cage.

    Polyester, surely.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #170 - October 07, 2011, 09:28 PM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on October 07, 2011, 09:07 PM
    It is. Putting your own desires and feelings to a side-for the sake of Allah! Yeah ok whatever, you know muslimahs better than they know themselves.


    Self abnegation for the sake of Allah can take many forms - that it takes the form of physical snuffing out in accordance with misogynist precepts in line with the patriarchal order of control of reactionary Islam is very convenient for those who sprinkle the reasoning of divinity over this order for control. To deny this aspect or attitude isn't tenable - the control of desire and feelings for the sake of Allah is a proxy for this - Allah isn't going to lust after or cause them desire or feelings himself.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #171 - October 07, 2011, 09:46 PM
    lol yeah that's obvious. One of the most common things you hear from hijabis who wear it out of choice is that they wear it because its what Allah wants and not their brother, father or husband. If only they knew the Quran was written by men -_-
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #172 - October 08, 2011, 12:04 AM
    Quote from: Gladfly on October 07, 2011, 06:06 PM
    We are NOT free to wear whatever we like.


    Speak for yourself.

    Quote
    All societies moderates what its members can wear.


    Then all societies are wrong.

    Quote from: Sakura02 on October 07, 2011, 08:03 PM
    As an American I support freedom, but I can't support something that uses freedom to suppress the freedoms of others. Which is what I fear the burqa is encouraging.

    The ban in itself is silly, but Europe isn't like America. The immigrants I feel have a different kind of mindset, they don't generally care about the host country or its traditions. They only wish to form their own subculture communities whilst scorning the culture of the host country. This is why Europe is getting antsy about losing its cultures and ideals to foreign influences which continue to grow. I feel like Europe has to force the pill of integration down their throats. In America various cultures usually live and blend together without much conflict, because in the end everyone respects the main ideals of the host countries and they work with it. I mean I see Muslims ad Jews shopping in the same place, everyone can comfortably occupy the same space. I mean there may be a few burqas here who get weird looks but no one is pressuring other women to do it to.

     France which really wants to just be done with religions used to control people's lifestyles, like what happened back in the 1700s that's why the revolution happened in the first place.


    Wow, way to miss the point. Rights are natural and universal. Someone has the same rights of free expression in the US, Europe, or Saudi Arabia, and the same right to wear a burqa or Nazi uniform-- this right exists independent of circumstances or laws.

    I really wish people who have no clue what rights, liberty, or freedom men would stop fucking using the words.

    fuck you
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #173 - October 08, 2011, 12:11 AM
    You cant have absolute freedom. It cant ever exist.
    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #174 - October 08, 2011, 01:03 AM
    Same rights? So you mean I can wear a bikini in a mall in Saudi Arabia and not get arrested and whipped like an animal??

    I already stated, that I think the ban is silly, but because Europe is suffering from an identity crisis they feel threatened by the growing Islamic influences they are trying to forcefully make it citizens blend into society. This shit would not even be an issue in the US, but a majority Europe's Muslim immigrants don't integrate so all the citizens are now bitching and up in arms.

    And I have to say Muslim because so many people go to Europe from all different countries all over the world. However, you have to ask yourself why is the Muslim culture even an issue to begin with? We're not fighting about turbans, or yarmulkes in public, we're arguing over a burqa?  Why?
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #175 - October 08, 2011, 01:05 AM
    Quote from: Sakura02 on October 08, 2011, 01:03 AM
    Same rights? So you mean I can wear a bikini in a mall in Saudi Arabia and not get arrested and whipped like an animal??

    You are confusing laws and human rights.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #176 - October 08, 2011, 01:09 AM
    Quote from: Sakura02 on October 08, 2011, 01:03 AM
    Same rights? So you mean I can wear a bikini in a mall in Saudi Arabia and not get arrested and whipped like an animal??


     banghead

    GAWD! YES you have the same fucking rights in Saudi Arabia as you do in the US or anywhere else-- whether the government or society respects these rights is a different issue. You really just do not get it, do you?

    Quote
    I already stated, that I think the ban is silly, but because Europe is suffering from an identity crisis they feel threatened by the growing Islamic influences they are trying to forcefully make it citizens blend into society. This shit would not even be an issue in the US, but a majority Europe's Muslim immigrants don't integrate so all the citizens are now bitching and up in arms.


    Oh, so it's acceptable to violate someone's rights because your society is having an identity crisis and feels threatened?  Roll Eyes Again, you fundamentally do not understand the concept of universal, natural rights. Your ignorance on this topic is quite appalling.

    Quote
    However, you have to ask yourself why is the Muslim culture even an issue to begin with? We're not fighting about turbans, or yarmulkes in public, we're arguing over a burqa?  Why?


    I do NOT have to ask myself that because (a) I know why, and (b) it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the state should allow people to freely exercise their rights.
    fuck you
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #177 - October 08, 2011, 01:12 AM
    Quote
    fighting about turbans, or yarmulkes in public, we're arguing over a burqa?  Why?


    One could say size and advocacy.  The Amish, Jehovah Witness, Orthodox Jews, etc are a small percentage of the overall population in the US.  So the US tolerates these deviations for the dominate legal/social structure because there is no way that the Amish will dominate the US ( or JH or Orthodox Jews).  Mormons not so much which is why there is so much consternation if Mormons are actual Christians ( read part of the dominate social order) because a Mormon dominance threatens an Evangelical dominance. If Muslims where at a 0.5 percentage of the population or where worldwide a minority religion people wouldn't care so much.  But Muslims are a significant minority and are vocal about their alternative legal/social system so they are deemed a threat to the social order.  I mean there are issues with the burka and a woman's choice but the idea that ALL women do feel  subjugated because they were the burka is clearly false from an Orientalist/ Christian/ Western point of view while the opposite is clearly true as well.  All women do not FREELY choice to wear the burka.  

    While I harp on the practial ( descriptive)  issues surrounding the US system there is obviously more theoretical and abstract ( proscriptive) but not more impossible goals of allowing people to choose how they want to live and being free to choose those ways be they Muslim, JW, or Mormon or any other legal/moral/religious framework.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #178 - October 08, 2011, 03:42 AM
    The burqa ban is just another example of patriarchy at work: men thinking they know what's best for women, as if they know women more than women know themselves and want they want. There's a difference between giving women the freedom to wear what they want and banning them from wearing certain things.

    It's really none of your fucking business what people wear and for what reason, as long as it doesn't physically harm others. What we need to do is ensure they're doing it autonomously.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #179 - October 08, 2011, 05:19 AM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on October 07, 2011, 03:07 PM
    So Muslim women can't dress how they want in Britain because of the actions of their ancestors? Right  Roll Eyes


    To repeat: if a country has legal sanctions on "offensive" symbolism etc then why should Islam be exempt?

    Quote
    I resort to "personal abuse" because I don't like people I personally know being compared to Nazis and KKKs.


    I fully understand what is at the root of the hostility here to views like Sak's. My own judgement is not clouded by such considerations. If people do not want to be associated in others' mind with the Taliban and terror then they shouldn't proudly sport Islamic attire and symbols or force their kids to do so.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
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