Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #210 - October 10, 2011, 06:03 PM

Quote from: DH on October 10, 2011, 01:42 PM
The bill was heavily amended from its original form as conceived by the Muslim groups pushing for it MORE.

Precisely. Parliament and civil society didn't allow any kind of blasphemy taboo against criticism of Islam to be included in the legislation under the nominal remit of preventing 'religious hatred'. So our democracy and institutions succeeded.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #211 - October 10, 2011, 06:12 PM

why are religious people allowed privileges with headgear?

i cant go into a shopping centre or many restaurants if im wearing a cap or a hoodie... most workplaces you're not not allowed to wear any non-religious head garments...yet if im wearing a turban or a kippah or a taqiyah no one will say shit to me?
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #212 - October 10, 2011, 06:16 PM

SCHEDULE Section 1
HATRED AGAINST PERSONS ON RELIGIOUS GROUNDS

DH, is this law was really applied nearly every mullah and imam would be behind bars with their constant kuffar bashing
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #213 - October 10, 2011, 06:38 PM

Quote from: serpentofeden on October 10, 2011, 06:12 PM
why are religious people allowed privileges with headgear?

i cant go into a shopping centre or many restaurants if im wearing a cap or a hoodie...

I don't see the relevance of this. Those are private entities, the organizational rules they set are not equivalent to state implementation of a sweeping ban with criminal/civil sanctions for its violation. I'm against a state ban but I see no problem with private businesses and organizations regulating such things within their premises, provided the rules are the same for everyone and it doesn't target one particular religious or ethnic minority group. A lot of businesses already have rules prohibiting face coverings (like banks and convenience stores and liquor stores)-- I wouldn't have a problem with them not making an exception for a niqabi.

As to this part:

Quote
most workplaces you're not not allowed to wear any non-religious head garments...yet if im wearing a turban or a kippah or a taqiyah no one will say shit to me?

I can give you the rationale according to US employment and discrimination law if you really are interested in the why, but I suspect this may be a rhetorical question.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #214 - October 10, 2011, 07:01 PM

Quote from: serpentofeden on October 10, 2011, 06:12 PM
why are religious people allowed privileges with headgear?

i cant go into a shopping centre or many restaurants if im wearing a cap or a hoodie... most workplaces you're not not allowed to wear any non-religious head garments...yet if im wearing a turban or a kippah or a taqiyah no one will say shit to me?

+1

Btw public places have their own laws and at the request of the general public. For example a park is a public place, but some parks do not allow pets, at the request of the general public. Just because something is public does not mean it's lawless. The laws placed are formed by the people's majority vote and agreement, whereas a private institution the laws are decided by a single person.

Btw the US discrimination law mostly applies when hiring people for work. Institutions however do have a right to turn away both potential employees and customers away for reasons, besides race, religion and gender.

What someone wears, is an extension of their religion and is a loose ground to claim religious discrimination. For example there are places that do not allow people in if they don't wear shoes. It's the company's rule. Regardless of if it's because of religion or not, out of fairness.

Now if you said, well you're a Muslim or a Jew therefore you cannot work here, or shop here that's an example of religious intolerance which can be dealt with under the law. If I said drinking alcohol frequently is apart of my religion and a company turns me away, that is not religious discrimination that's company policy which is their right.

Of course the lines could always get fuzzy, but that's when you have people that sue, but more often than not they end up losing their case or not settling.

Btw I'm just voicing my opinion and presenting counter-arguments from the way I see it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me or change their opinions. So no need to take it personally and get all upset when someone doesn't agree with you. Just calm down man, .] At the end of the day it's important people can be friends despite disagreements.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #215 - October 11, 2011, 02:03 AM

Quote from: billy on October 10, 2011, 06:03 PM
Precisely. Parliament and civil society didn't allow any kind of blasphemy taboo against criticism of Islam to be included in the legislation under the nominal remit of preventing 'religious hatred'. So our democracy and institutions succeeded.

You're not panicking enough. It's the end of Western civilisation. Really.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #216 - October 12, 2011, 01:03 AM

Billy you said

Quote
the bikini and the burqa are not the same thing.

Lol - I am going to get crucified for this - but isn't there a case that a burkha-clad woman (one extreme)is the opposite of a porn actress (the other extreme). In the sense both think they are doing it for either Allah or themselves but in reality it is because of men. In that both are exhibiting objectification of women. both ultimately degrade, debase and dehumanize womanhood.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #217 - October 12, 2011, 01:12 AM

Quote from: Sakura02 on October 10, 2011, 07:01 PM
+1

Btw public places have their own laws and at the request of the general public. For example a park is a public place, but some parks do not allow pets, at the request of the general public. Just because something is public does not mean it's lawless. The laws placed are formed by the people's majority vote and agreement, whereas a private institution the laws are decided by a single person.

Btw the US discrimination law mostly applies when hiring people for work. Institutions however do have a right to turn away both potential employees and customers away for reasons, besides race, religion and gender.

What someone wears, is an extension of their religion and is a loose ground to claim religious discrimination. For example there are places that do not allow people in if they don't wear shoes. It's the company's rule. Regardless of if it's because of religion or not, out of fairness.

Now if you said, well you're a Muslim or a Jew therefore you cannot work here, or shop here that's an example of religious intolerance which can be dealt with under the law. If I said drinking alcohol frequently is apart of my religion and a company turns me away, that is not religious discrimination that's company policy which is their right.

Of course the lines could always get fuzzy, but that's when you have people that sue, but more often than not they end up losing their case or not settling.

The standard the EEOC uses is a "reasonable accommodation" for a "bonafide" religious practice. For example, let's say you have an office dress code which states no hats indoors-- allowing an Orthodox Jew to wear a yarmulke would be considered to be a reasonable accommodation as it does not interfere with the functioning of the business. To take the converse example, if you operated a factory where beards were prohibited for bonafide safety reasons (like certain chemical plants) the Sikh guy who demands to keep his beard wouldn't have much of a case.

Quote
Btw I'm just voicing my opinion and presenting counter-arguments from the way I see it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me or change their opinions. So no need to take it personally and get all upset when someone doesn't agree with you. Just calm down man, .] At the end of the day it's important people can be friends despite disagreements.

Sakura, you seem like a nice enough person with a good heart, but I get upset over shit like this cause fundamentally I value freedom and natural rights, and democratic governments often trample on these freedoms and rights because many people think like you do and hold liberty in low regard in comparison to respect for the popular will. I will never live my life in a truly free country because there are a lot more people who think like you than those who think like me, and that makes me angry and sad. It's not you in particular-- your beliefs certainly aren't in the minority and that's a big part of the problem as I see it.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #218 - October 12, 2011, 01:33 AM

It's like the burkha is a shield of steel to protect from the pornographers glare lol. Men, dominant types are into two types of women, good girls (chaste etc) and bad girls (up for it) both displayed in extremes by burkha-clad women and porn actresses.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #219 - October 15, 2011, 10:18 AM

Quote from: billy
Precisely. Parliament and civil society didn't allow any kind of blasphemy taboo against criticism of Islam to be included in the legislation under the nominal remit of preventing 'religious hatred'. So our democracy and institutions succeeded.

What if someone stated in word or print "Muslims are the worst of beasts" or "Muslims are filth".?

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #220 - October 15, 2011, 10:24 AM

Quote from: DH on October 15, 2011, 10:18 AM

What if someone stated in word or print "Muslims are the worst of beasts" or "Muslims are filth".?

It would still receive less of a condemnation than saying the same thing about Jews would.
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #221 - October 15, 2011, 10:31 AM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi
To take the converse example, if you operated a factory where beards were prohibited for bonafide safety reasons (like certain chemical plants) the Sikh guy who demands to keep his beard wouldn't have much of a case.

Or, another example, a Muslim a supermarket worker who requested not to handle pig products. Religious people do not have a "right" to have the workplace or any other common environment tailored to the needs of whatever irrational belief system they, when all is said and done, CHOOSE to subscribe to. That said, if I was a private employer I would have no objection to a christian office worker displaying a cross on her cleavage, nor to a sikh wearing a turban. I would, however, no more allow a Muslimah to sport any kind of overtly Islamic garb than I would allow a racist to wear Ku Klux Klan robes.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #222 - October 15, 2011, 10:38 AM

Quote from: Kodanshi
It would still receive less of a condemnation than saying the same thing about Jews would.

I think under the "relgious hatred" laws AS THEY STAND the "offender" would get a visit from the cops. Meanwhile Muslims are free to practice their "Freedom of Religion" by parroting whatever "Kafir"-abusing invective their "holy book" contains. That ain't fair.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #223 - October 15, 2011, 07:20 PM

Quote from: DH on October 15, 2011, 10:18 AM
What if someone stated in word or print "Muslims are the worst of beasts" or "Muslims are filth".?

I presume you're drawing a possible double standard between how the law might treat someone who said the above, and a Muslim who said similar things about non Muslims using scriptural Islamic rhetoric?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #224 - October 15, 2011, 09:54 PM

so it's ok to march in the streets with " Death to juice" signs but if you say anything bad about Islam you have Islamphobia?

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #225 - October 15, 2011, 09:58 PM

Who the fuck are you addressing that question to?

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #226 - October 15, 2011, 10:00 PM

Quote from: Sakura02 on October 15, 2011, 09:54 PM
so it's ok to march in the streets with " Death to juice" signs but if you say anything bad about Islam you have Islamphobia?

You're mixing up an incitement to kill ('Death to Jews') with the often false accusations made against someone criticising Islam.

The first is actionable, the second is just some peoples opinion or desire to close down the terms of debate about religion and Islam.

The neo Nazi, white supremacist leader of the BNP, Nick Griffin, was criminally prosecuted for comments he made about Islam being a violent religion, which posed a threat to British society. He didn't call for violence or death to Muslims in that speech. He was found not guilty by a jury. Those are the broad parameters of difference.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #227 - October 15, 2011, 10:09 PM

Wait a minute billy, I wanna know who the hell she's addressing that question to. It came out of nowhere and I didn't see anyone on this thread making an argument even remotely similar to that. Why are you legitimizing her strawman?

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #228 - October 15, 2011, 10:35 PM

To be fair I don't think I legitimised her strawman, more like I took the straw out of the padding and set it on fire.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #229 - October 17, 2011, 06:28 AM

Quote from: billy on October 15, 2011, 07:20 PM
I presume you're drawing a possible double standard between how the law might treat someone who said the above, and a Muslim who said similar things about non Muslims using scriptural Islamic rhetoric?

Yes. These "religious hatred" laws should be done away with completely or extended so that hate speech inspired by religious texts will be equally subject to successful prosecution. I personally do not give a damn if someone in a church or mosque wants to rant that the disbelievers will burn in hell. However, when they start demanding legal "protection" for themselves or even rioting when their religion isn't shown sufficient "respec'" then I think they should be gone after on principle.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #230 - October 18, 2011, 05:27 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on October 15, 2011, 10:09 PM
Wait a minute billy, I wanna know who the hell she's addressing that question to. It came out of nowhere and I didn't see anyone on this thread making an argument even remotely similar to that. Why are you legitimizing her strawman?

I just threw a curve ball for no reason. Lolz No it as just a rhetorical question related to the discussion of hate crimes and protection against hateful comments.

Ok let me better rephrase my general question.

"Death to Juice" vs "Death to Muslims"

"Christians suck dick" vs " Muslims suck dick"

"Jews are evil" vs. "Muslims are evil"

"Christians worship a Satanic God" vs " Muslims worship a Satanic God"

" No hijab at work " vs. " no yarmulke at work" or " no cross at work "

"Bible burnings" vs. "Qu'ran burning"

Which of these classifies as a hate crime and demands legal attention?

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #231 - November 06, 2011, 02:55 PM

As a never-muslim male and atheist I would like to give my general and possibly simplistic perception of the burka and what the "by choice" wearers are 'saying' to me by wearing it....

1. "Don't talk to me....." (sadness)

2. "Don't even look at me....." (more sadness)

3. "I am SO beautiful that if I was to uncover you would not be able to resist your animalistic sexual desires..." (arrogance??)

4. "You are a male and I consider you to be a potential sexual threat to me, so I must never be left alone with you or even have you as a friend...." (sadness AND insulting??)

Perhaps this is a simplistic and incorrect view of what muslimahs actually think but as I have never spoken to a wearer about this (see No.1 above) I may never find out. Perhaps some ex-muslimahs can give me an idea of what they thought of non-mahrams when they wore the burka.

Do I find the burka insulting? Slightly, for the 4 reasons stated above, but I understand that the individuals who wear them are, as The Rationalizer says, deluded in order to please a non-existant supernatural being. And I would never look down on them as people, or insult them just for wearing it.

I do however think it is sad and a crying shame :-( that so many women, will never feel the sun on their skin or the wind in their hair, or speak or become friends with other people like me, which is a large majority of society here in the UK.

I was at an Eid celebration party at my mate's house recently and I politely offered my hand to shake with a lady wearing a hijab, and I sensed she was VERY hesitant in shaking my hand. The handshake seemed very limp and wet, even for a lady, and seemed insincere and I got the impression this was something that she didnt really do and couldnt wait to pull her hand away. I really hope that her imam husband didnt berate or punish her when she got home.

Do I want to ban the burka? No, I think that would be suppressing freedoms. However I do wish to question and criticise the motives and reasoning behind those that do wear it (or are forced to wear it), and perhaps over the generations, as more and more women cast off the burka (hope!), over the generations, it becomes perceived as old-fashioned and just a bit weird.

I would like to see the burka disappear but not banning it or by criminalising the wearers, rather that it just gradually slips away into traditional obscurity.

As stated above these are just my male PERCEPTIONS of the signal the burka sends out, and may not necessarily be what the muslimahs ACTUALLY think, I would welcome any ex-muslimahs (or muslimahs if there are any here) to inform me, if the above is in any way accurate or at least partially accurate, and I am happy to be set straight on this.

Cheers :-)

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #232 - November 06, 2011, 03:01 PM

Oh can I add another perception I get from burka wearers?

5. I am now owned by my husband (even more sadness)

Those who wear the hijab, also give me the same impression, but less so.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #233 - November 06, 2011, 07:03 PM

I have another perception:

7. I am so ugly that I would like to show my ugliness in public (even more sadness)

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #234 - November 06, 2011, 10:48 PM

I am sorry but I beg to differ, but that shoud be No. 6 not No. 7 anyway.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #235 - November 06, 2011, 11:09 PM

Oops... I stand corrected:

I have another perception:

6. I am so ugly that I would like to hide my ugliness in public (even more sadness)

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #236 - November 06, 2011, 11:28 PM

Hehe, OK joke accepted but with regards to the serious issues and the questions in my original post, what are your thoughts?

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #237 - April 03, 2012, 07:18 PM

Quote from: Sakura02 on October 18, 2011, 05:27 PM
I just threw a curve ball for no reason. Lolz No it as just a rhetorical question related to the discussion of hate crimes and protection against hateful comments.

Ok let me better rephrase my general question.

"Death to Juice" vs "Death to Muslims"

"Christians suck dick" vs " Muslims suck dick"

"Jews are evil" vs. "Muslims are evil"

"Christians worship a Satanic God" vs " Muslims worship a Satanic God"

" No hijab at work " vs. " no yarmulke at work" or " no cross at work "

"Bible burnings" vs. "Qu'ran burning"

Which of these classifies as a hate crime and demands legal attention?

None of them except probably the first two ("Death to...") as they could be construed as direct incitements to violence.

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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #238 - April 03, 2012, 10:32 PM

Thread necromancy here.
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Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
Reply #239 - April 04, 2012, 01:57 AM

I owed her a reply.

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