A renaissance for the Islamic world

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A renaissance for the Islamic world
OP - July 13, 2010, 05:54 PM

So, what will it take to bring about a renessaince/ enlightenment in the Islamic world similar to the one that Europe enjoyed beginning in the 16th century? What methods can be used from the outside to awaken a thirst for knowledge and art for the unfortunate depraved people of the Islamic world?

John Saul hypothesised that the enlightenment began in earnest when the greatest earthquake of the 18th century decimated Lisbon and the pope proceeded to blame the sinfulness of the people of Portugal for the disaster. All it took was for the people to realise the absurdity of the Pope's statement and Europe became revitalised in its quest for objective knowledge and the sublimely beautiful. It was this period that gave birth to the American constitution, the French revolution, the romanticist era and on and on.

In short, what can we do to bring about an Islamic renessaince too? (I suppose I am mostly concerned here with the overtly salafi and wahabi communities of the world, however, even places like Pakistan deserve and require a cultural revolution.)

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Re: A renessaince for the Islamic world
Reply #1 - July 13, 2010, 06:08 PM

Hmmm... interesting topic. Why would the people have found the pope's statements absurd though? Even today there are so many people who still believe that such disasters are the cause of human depravity. Wouldn't such a viewpoint have been considered sort of 'normal' to the majority back then?
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Re: A renessaince for the Islamic world
Reply #2 - July 13, 2010, 06:15 PM

I suppose the mentality of the majority of people had changed from the world being a place to fear to a place to discover and explore. It is true that the majority were religious but they had started to take a very liberal view of God and his endless tantrums and retributions.

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Re: A renessaince for the Islamic world
Reply #3 - July 13, 2010, 06:18 PM

It was commonly believed, before understanding electricity,
that lightning was a judgement of the angry sky daddy. In fact, many
xian cults still believe this to this day.

you post a very "ponderable" question Z10. I will have to contemplat my navel considerably on
this one.

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Re: A renessaince for the Islamic world
Reply #4 - July 13, 2010, 09:40 PM

I don't think a renessaince is necessary -- globalization will take care of it. Especially when the Arabs run out of oil money.
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Re: A renessaince for the Islamic world
Reply #5 - July 13, 2010, 09:48 PM

the removal of sharia law
you remove dogmatic law, you remove thought crimes
people start to think a little more clearly
are the people of islam ready for clear thought?

Sex booze and rock&roll
you know
the finer things in life
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Re: A renessaince for the Islamic world
Reply #6 - July 13, 2010, 10:03 PM

Quote from: zoomi on July 13, 2010, 09:40 PM
I don't think a renessaince is necessary -- globalization will take care of it. Especially when the Arabs run out of oil money.

I don't think many has anything to do with money TBH. Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, and the North African countries are all low-income countries yet they are still conservative backward societies.

But I concur on the point of globalization. The effects can be seen today.
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Re: A renessaince for the Islamic world
Reply #7 - July 13, 2010, 10:05 PM

zoomi, i think you have a strong point there. for whatever the reason, whether war,
trade, etc, enculuturization is inevitable. They are fighting a losing battle (and how well
they know it!) with more and more people from other parts of the world "intruding"
on their 1400 year old dogma.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #8 - July 14, 2010, 01:18 PM

The Internet will take care of the loose threads.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #9 - July 14, 2010, 01:24 PM

Exactly, Eph... why else would Pakistan, and China, Cuba, and North Korea
for that matter, censor the internet? They KNOW when their people
get a taste of how the "other half lives" they will want to be a part
of it too. And not just for camel porn. Theres a whole world out
there to explore. Man's curious nature will ultimately win out. Its
when people start questioning, that dictators (whether secular or
relgious) start losing control.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #10 - July 14, 2010, 01:29 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 13, 2010, 05:54 PM
So, what will it take to bring about a renessaince/ enlightenment in the Islamic world similar to the one that Europe enjoyed beginning in the 16th century? What methods can be used from the outside to awaken a thirst for knowledge and art for the unfortunate depraved people of the Islamic world?

John Saul hypothesised that the enlightenment began in earnest when the greatest earthquake of the 18th century decimated Lisbon and the pope proceeded to blame the sinfulness of the people of Portugal for the disaster. All it took was for the people to realise the absurdity of the Pope's statement and Europe became revitalised in its quest for objective knowledge and the sublimely beautiful. It was this period that gave birth to the American constitution, the French revolution, the romanticist era and on and on.

In short, what can we do to bring about an Islamic renessaince too? (I suppose I am mostly concerned here with the overtly salafi and wahabi communities of the world, however, even places like Pakistan deserve and require a cultural revolution.)

Well I will NOT call that as Islamic renaissance , That is going back to the days of Caliphs if not Muhammad's times. I would call that as "renaissance in the present Islamic world" which is nothing but moving away from real Islam towards progressive and rational thinking which is far away from dogmatic Islamic religious books.

Apart from books, there is a fundamental problem in Islam that is Prophet of Islam himself.

You can co-exit with a person/society which follows in the footsteps of Christ, You can co-exit with a person/society which follows in the footsteps of Moses But you CAN NOT co-exit with a person/society which follows in the footsteps of Muhammad making him as Model to the present society.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #11 - July 14, 2010, 01:33 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 13, 2010, 05:54 PM
So, what will it take to bring about a renessaince/ enlightenment in the Islamic world similar to the one that Europe enjoyed beginning in the 16th century?

First of all the West needs to stop interfering in the affairs of the Muslim world. They have to come to this on their own, without outside interference. I believe Western intervention has already derailed secular movements in the Muslim world on numerous occasions.

Quote
What methods can be used from the outside to awaken a thirst for knowledge and art for the unfortunate depraved people of the Islamic world?

I take it you meant to say deprived, not depraved, right?

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #12 - July 14, 2010, 01:36 PM

That's where a religion like Islam comes handy.Just get the mullahs on your side and you have thecontrol of a whole population on a platter in the name of GOD. Of course in reality it's not that easy as sooner or later people are going to rebel. Even allah's wrath didn't prevent those people from seeking,donkey,camel etc. etc. sex.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #13 - July 14, 2010, 02:14 PM

i thought islam had an enlightenment period before. but they didn't take advantage of it

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[13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #14 - July 14, 2010, 02:52 PM

Quote from: Kod on July 14, 2010, 02:14 PM
i thought islam had an enlightenment period before. but they didn't take advantage of it

What enlightenment and what Islamic renaissance? Let us read a bit of Islamic history leaving Muhammad's time starting from day he died. Let us look at the year by year Islamic History and its rulers all the way to 20th century.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15311

And let us read some Muslim intellectuals on that enlightenment period in Islam to figure out what they say on that Islamic renaissance

Islamic Renaissance

http://www.tanzeem.org/online/ebooks/ebooks/E-01-05%20Islamic%20Renaissance%20The%20Real%20Task%20Ahead.pdf

http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/d/dch2_e.pdf

http://islam.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_islamic_golden_age

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #15 - July 14, 2010, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 13, 2010, 10:03 PM
I don't think many has anything to do with money TBH. Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, and the North African countries are all low-income countries yet they are still conservative backward societies.

But Saudi is the one pumping millions into the building of elaborate extremist mosques and such...
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #16 - July 14, 2010, 04:14 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 13, 2010, 10:03 PM
I don't think many has anything to do with money TBH. Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, and the North African countries are all low-income countries yet they are still conservative backward societies.

But I concur on the point of globalization. The effects can be seen today.

despite there backwardness , there are societies inside of them where it is different i don't know much about Syria but from what i heard they have the same thing
i know Lebanon and Egypt do tho. i had friends from these societies that taught me. not as conservative as you think. parties , drinking , sex and everything you want but it was expensive !

wish the whole country would be at ease like that

[13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
[13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
[13:37] <Fimbles> see
[13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #17 - July 14, 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote from: zoomi on July 14, 2010, 03:28 PM
But Saudi is the one pumping millions into the building of elaborate extremist mosques and such...

Not really the reason. Saudi is not the reason for religiosity and conservatism in Sudan or Iraq for instance.

I think there has to be a bloody revolution to liberalize laws and push for gender equality and free speech. Or at least a takeover of government by secular military leaders. Only then you can see real change.
Globalization is also helping. The upper-middle classes in many Arab countries are very Westernized and now the middle classes are following the same trend. It might be a slow process though.

Quote from: Kod on July 14, 2010, 04:14 PM
despite there backwardness , there are societies inside of them where it is different i don't know much about Syria but from what i heard they have the same thing
i know Lebanon and Egypt do tho. i had friends from these societies that taught me. not as conservative as you think. parties , drinking , sex and everything you want but it was expensive !

Sure in Iraq and Jordan too. I've been to crazy parties and met very liberal people in the Middle East. There are Facebook pages and blogs and they're all good steps.
But this constitutes a small percentage of the population and it's limited to the rich and intelligentsia.
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #18 - July 14, 2010, 05:55 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 13, 2010, 05:54 PM
So, what will it take to bring about a renessaince/ enlightenment in the Islamic world similar to the one that Europe enjoyed beginning in the 16th century? What methods can be used from the outside to awaken a thirst for knowledge and art for the unfortunate depraved people of the Islamic world?

Its not as easy with Islam. The other religious texts are different in that their books are not meant to be the unalterable and perfect words of an omnicient being.

I think that over generations the number of apostates will grow, and these muslims will need to learn to live & work with them and allow them freedom of speech. I believe thats when the societies will learn to adapt & change.

In other words, I dont think Islam is able/ can / will adapt to the level of the West. I think its the people that will learn to work around it and see it for what it is faster after the disparity between Islamic vs non-Islamic countries grow larger.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #19 - July 14, 2010, 06:21 PM

Just wondering, what exactly do you guys consider as liberal? Does partying, drinking, and having sex automatically mean that they are liberal?
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #20 - July 14, 2010, 06:26 PM

Not necessarily. By liberal I mean being open-minded and having liberal views.
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #21 - July 14, 2010, 06:31 PM

Quote from: kb999 on July 14, 2010, 06:21 PM
Just wondering, what exactly do you guys consider as liberal? Does partying, drinking, and having sex automatically mean that they are liberal?

I would say that what is being advocated here is an encouragement of open and fair inquiry, of a commitment to the truth above all else and a desire to know more than the desire to believe.
This is not to say that the west has perfected these ideals but rather, it seems to me, the west is currently the best out of a poor lot and its initial steps in the enlightenment deserve to be replicated.

I agree with those that have cited globalization and especially the internet. It is incredible that everyone on the planet can be connected with everyone else if they have an internet connection and this will perhaps do more than anything else to break down barriers between cultures.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #22 - July 14, 2010, 06:33 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 14, 2010, 05:16 PM

Sure in Iraq and Jordan too. I've been to crazy parties and met very liberal people in the Middle East. There are Facebook pages and blogs and they're all good steps.
But this constitutes a small percentage of the population and it's limited to the rich and intelligentsia.

these things are usually hosted by the Christian population is what i concluded

[13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
[13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
[13:37] <Fimbles> see
[13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #23 - July 14, 2010, 06:34 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on July 14, 2010, 01:33 PM
First of all the West needs to stop interfering in the affairs of the Muslim world. They have to come to this on their own, without outside interference. I believe Western intervention has already derailed secular movements in the Muslim world on numerous occasions.

I take it you meant to say deprived, not depraved, right?

Now that I think about it, both do seem to fit.

I agree that certain geo-political decisions have derailed secular movements and in certain cases (like Afghanistan) actively supported a very literal and dogmatic interpretation of Islam. However, this works both ways - the muslim world also needs to realise that everything coming out of the west is not evil especially with its medieval attitude towards science.

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Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #24 - July 14, 2010, 06:46 PM

Quote from: Kod on July 14, 2010, 06:33 PM
these things are usually hosted by the Christian population is what i concluded

Not the parties I went to.
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #25 - July 15, 2010, 11:44 AM

When women become more emancipated and the precepts of the immutable nature of Islam are challenged (this will only come after cycles and generations of bloody backlash against those liberalisers)

The alternative is that Islam might just be a faith that will not change.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #26 - July 15, 2010, 11:46 AM

Quote from: Ephemeral on July 14, 2010, 01:18 PM
The Internet will take care of the loose threads.

You know, the internet really is something that Islam has never faced before. One of the things it has allowed is the 1600 year death taboo on the criticism of Mohammad to be side-stepped in a very widespread and robust and fearless manner.

Its little-big things like this.......a thousand cuts.

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #27 - July 15, 2010, 12:09 PM

the internet is just a whole lot harder to police than conventional media due to its decentralized and largely anonymous nature.

i do think muslim countries will make serious attempts at mo related internet censorship. China / Iran style ones, rather than small blocked site lists.
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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #28 - July 15, 2010, 12:17 PM

Quote from: s12345 on July 15, 2010, 12:09 PM
the internet is just a whole lot harder to police than conventional media due to its decentralized and largely anonymous nature.

i do think muslim countries will make serious attempts at mo related internet censorship. China / Iran style ones, rather than small blocked site lists.

That is NOT possible unless All Islamic countries come under one Caliph and start killing any one who questions Mr. PBUH. Muhammad character is chameleon character in Islam. You see good bad and ugly in Quran/hadith and Sunnah on him.. So critics will continue to write in to internet..

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Re: A renaissance for the Islamic world
Reply #29 - July 15, 2010, 12:37 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 13, 2010, 05:54 PM
So, what will it take to bring about a renessaince/ enlightenment in the Islamic world similar to the one that Europe enjoyed beginning in the 16th century? What methods can be used from the outside to awaken a thirst for knowledge and art for the unfortunate depraved people of the Islamic world?

John Saul hypothesised that the enlightenment began in earnest when the greatest earthquake of the 18th century decimated Lisbon and the pope proceeded to blame the sinfulness of the people of Portugal for the disaster. All it took was for the people to realise the absurdity of the Pope's statement and Europe became revitalised in its quest for objective knowledge and the sublimely beautiful. It was this period that gave birth to the American constitution, the French revolution, the romanticist era and on and on.

In short, what can we do to bring about an Islamic renessaince too? (I suppose I am mostly concerned here with the overtly salafi and wahabi communities of the world, however, even places like Pakistan deserve and require a cultural revolution.)

Lessen the dependence on oil and Saudi influence.. It will be a big help.

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