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Theme Changer

 Topic: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"

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  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #30 - July 28, 2010, 10:53 PM
    Quote from: Abood on July 28, 2010, 10:51 PM
    So you want to break your own constitution? So much for American pride, eh?


    No one is saying that he has no right to build it.  Saying that is needed for the Muslims to feel secure and to remember the victims when they were killed because of Islamists is rather obscene.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #31 - July 28, 2010, 10:55 PM
    Did you even watch the video I linked to?

    I know building it near Ground Zero is a stupid idea, but Muslims have a constitutional right to it and preventing it from happening would make things worse.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #32 - July 28, 2010, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: Abood on July 28, 2010, 10:55 PM
    Did you even watch the video I linked to?

    I know building it near Ground Zero is a stupid idea, but Muslims have a constitutional right to it and preventing it from happening would make things worse.


    I did yes.  Did I every say that they don't have the right to do it?  As far as I know I never contested that.  Building it though is still going to make things worse.  It's going to increase hate towards their community.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #33 - July 28, 2010, 11:00 PM
    I do think the Muslims in charge should be sensitive about the location and build it elsewhere, but they shouldn't be forced to do it. Nor will they.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #34 - July 28, 2010, 11:01 PM
    abood... yes i watched his video.  And they are taking full advantage (more like abusing)
    our constitution to do this, a direct slap in the face of the survivors/victims of 9/11. They
    are NOT going there to mourn or show respect for everyone affected, and who died, they are
    going to chat in a cafe, swim, praise allah, teach the koran. Its a big  muslim party in those
    15 stories.  
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #35 - July 28, 2010, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: Abood on July 28, 2010, 11:00 PM
    I do think the Muslims in charge should be sensitive about the location and build it elsewhere, but they shouldn't be forced to do it. Nor will they.


    Well then you can thank them for the increased hatred and prejudice the other members of their religion are going to experience.  Many Americans are not going to be very pleased.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #36 - July 28, 2010, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 28, 2010, 11:01 PM
    abood... yes i watched his video.  And they are taking full advantage (more like abusing)
    our constitution to do this, a direct slap in the face of the survivors/victims of 9/11. They
    are NOT going there to mourn or show respect for everyone affected, and who died, they are
    going to chat in a cafe, swim, praise allah, teach the koran. Its a big  muslim party in those
    15 stories.  


    You have a point.

    But at the end of the day, feelings aren't protected by law, but private property is.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #37 - July 28, 2010, 11:13 PM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 28, 2010, 11:01 PM
    abood... yes i watched his video.  And they are taking full advantage (more like abusing)
    our constitution to do this, a direct slap in the face of the survivors/victims of 9/11. They
    are NOT going there to mourn or show respect for everyone affected, and who died, they are
    going to chat in a cafe, swim, praise allah, teach the koran. Its a big  muslim party in those
    15 stories.  

    Look I think building the mosque there is a stupid idea. I also understand why some Americans see it as "slap in the face" of the 9/11 survivors or victims' families.
    What I don't understand is why you think it's a slap in the face of Americans. I know this is cliche why do you lump all Muslims together? would you be offended if somebody built a church near an abortion clinic that was bombed by a Christian?
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #38 - July 28, 2010, 11:37 PM
    homes...  the entire country was deeply devistated, whether they were
    personally "attacked" or  not.  Every American was affected in one way
    or another.  Personally, I had to deal with trying to console my best friend
    at the loss of her eldest son.  My baby sister was working in Manhattan
    and six months pregnant, and comm was down for a while and we had no idea
    where she was, or if she had business that morning at the WTC (which she often did) until
    she finally got through to us a few hours later.   After 9/11, my "nest egg"
    (stock) for retirement dropped from $138.00 per share, to FOUR DOLLARS
    per share, and NEVER recovered.  Just two months ago, the company folded
    and I got 2 dollars per share payment.  EVERYONE was
    affected by this.  This started the financial collapse of our country,
    as well.  It was from there companies and inudstries  fell apart.  Millions lost
    their jobs, homes, etc.

    You know, I drove from North Carolina to Nevada on Oct 6th, 2001.  Every
    single place I stopped along the way, I had NEVER seen Americans unite,
    and total strangers talking to each other as if they had known each other
    all their lives.  Didnt matter, white, black, hispanic, asian, southerner,
    northerner;  it was surreal.  The American people across the country were
    weeping, in shock, horror, and snapped into a reality check.  I had never
    seen unity like I did on that trip.  We, as a people GRIEVED for the loss
    of those in NYC, PA, and the pentagon for months thereafter.  We embraced
    those around the world, (MUSLIMS TOO) who sent their condolences.  
    WE THE PEOPLE  didn't understand this incredible hatred for us,
    WE THE PEOPLE, the farmers,  the secretaries, the nurses, firefighters,
    police, the salt of this country, had never done anything to anyone that
    we could fathom this kind of retaliation.  We didnt hold protests
    by the thousands or millions singing/chanting DEATH TO (insert country
    of your choice)!  

    The AVERAGE American DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY!  MANY of us rushed to
    find out what Islam was REALLY all about. We wanted to understand what it was that
    perpetrated this serious hatred towards us.  

    You above all people should KNOW that a leader of a country doesn't speak for the
    average citizen!  You say, "well!  You voted him in!"  And I can reply, "well! YOU voted
    sadam into office!"  Doesnt work that way, homes, you know that.  
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #39 - July 28, 2010, 11:47 PM
    Saddam wasn't voted into office.  He took over from someone else.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #40 - July 28, 2010, 11:50 PM
    fair  enough  rass.  But like anyone else in the world, Americans aren't
    psychic and know how their voted in leader is going to behave, either lol.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #41 - July 28, 2010, 11:52 PM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 28, 2010, 11:50 PM
    fair  enough  rass.  But like anyone else in the world, Americans aren't
    psychic and know how their voted in leader is going to behave, either lol.


    He didn't tell you anything about the leaders either as far as I'm aware.  He asked you about a church being built in front of an abortion clinic where the doctor was killed.  I for one would have opposed it, even though I am pro life.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #42 - July 28, 2010, 11:57 PM
    @Jinn and Tonic,

     I really empathize with you. I was disgusted by the attacks and still am. Whenever I remember the video of the people jumping off the buildings I nearly cry.

    But that doesn't answer my question. Do 19 Muslims = Islam? why do you talk about this mosque as if it's a memorial to the hijackers?


    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 28, 2010, 11:37 PM
    You above all people should KNOW that a leader of a country doesn't speak for the
    average citizen!  You say, "well!  You voted him in!"  And I can reply, "well! YOU voted
    sadam into office!"  Doesnt work that way, homes, you know that.  

    Why did I ever say that? why are you putting words in my mouth? what are you talking about? wacko
     
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #43 - July 28, 2010, 11:59 PM
    Thats another can of worms.  and one where serious ethics are involved.
    (EDIT re:  abortion clinic vs. christian church)

    Homes... my point was why did the "WE THE PEOPLE" get attacked?
    If the "enemy" was our leader, why were WE killed?

    Tell me homes... who should the american people blame for 9/11 (bush isnt the answer,
    either lol)  From an american perspective, what would you EXPECT Americans to think,
    with all the anti american propaganda and sentiment gurgling out afterwards via video,
    news, media, etc?  Those vids of bin laden and his henchmen pilots?

    EDIT: I wont deny I am getting flustered, as this is a very sensitive and
    delicate debate. Cry  so if i missed explaining something, im sorry, I type
    faster than i can think sometimes.  

    Another EDIT:  19 muslims?  Oh methinks there were one or two more than
    that.  But  regardless... the propaganda afterwards from al quaida made
    it QUITE clear it was Islam vs. the American infadels
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #44 - July 29, 2010, 12:04 AM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 28, 2010, 11:57 PM

    But that doesn't answer my question. Do 19 Muslims = Islam? why do you talk about this mosque as if it's a memorial to the hijackers?


    The 19 hijackers don't represent all Muslims..  as for Islam, would they have done it had it not been for Islam?  And then that opens another can of worms..  what is Islam?  And one could spend hours debating that.  Only one question should be asked, the first one I mentioned, whether they would have done it had it not been for Islam.  I genuinely believe that Islam helped quite a lot in it.  These are the people who took things a bit further than the others.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #45 - July 29, 2010, 12:10 AM
    As I said homes,  and ras.  MANY of us went to great lengths to understand Islam
    afterwards.  We WANTED to understand and learn for ourselves if in fact this was
    true islam or not.  Thats what got  me into the mess of islam to begin with! 
    Studying it from an anthropological perspective, and voila.  American hijabi, here
    I come  LOL.  I wanted to understand Islam for years after that.   Having  had lived
    abroad most of  my life, i  knew it was ridiculous to try to just rationalize  it away
    as being "exclusively" muslim.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #46 - July 29, 2010, 12:15 AM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 29, 2010, 12:10 AM
    As I said homes,  and ras.  MANY of us went to great lengths to understand Islam
    afterwards.  We WANTED to understand and learn for ourselves if in fact this was
    true islam or not.  Thats what got  me into the mess of islam to begin with! 
    Studying it from an anthropological perspective, and voila.  American hijabi, here
    I come  LOL.  I wanted to understand Islam for years after that.   Having  had lived
    abroad most of  my life, i  knew it was ridiculous to try to just rationalize  it away
    as being "exclusively" muslim.


    I find it quite strange that you would adopt something having to do with people who attacked you to be honest.  I would have never done something like that for one (I'm implying this for all religions and cultures mind you).  What exactly caused you to convert to Islam?  It really sounds like you people are culturally weak in a way.  I'm not trying to be rude or anything.. but the thing sounds like a bizarre form of Stockholm syndrome.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #47 - July 29, 2010, 12:16 AM

    Quote from: ras111 on July 28, 2010, 11:47 PM
    Saddam wasn't voted into office.  He took over from someone else.

    And was America's friend for over two decades !

    In fact if it wasn't for the CIA, Abdul Karim Qassim would not have been overthrown in 1963. He was the greatest leader we ever had. He overthrew the monarchy and established a strong national government. He ended feudalism and distributed the lands to the peasants. He nationalised the oil industry and established the National Iraqi Oil Company. He was against sectarianism and died without revealing whether he was a Sunni or Shia. He even ordered that all the restrictions on the remaining 20,000 or so Iraqi Jews be lifted and their rights be fully restored and he visited their synagogues every year and begged them to stay in Iraq*. He outlawed polygamy, introduced a minimum age of marriage (18), and ordered courts to give women equal inherticance. He was nicknamed "Abdulkareem Roundabout" because he built more roads and roundabouts than any other president. He also opposed Nasser and pan-Arabism.
    Despite all of that, the US didn't like him and orchestrated his assassination because he made friends with the commies !!

    The US recruited the Baathists and funded them starting from the late 50s. They only thing they cared about was destroying the commmunists of Iraq who BTW were the largest movement in Iraq in the 60s.


    * Iraqi Jews love him so much that many of them still to this day have his picture hanged in their houses. Specially those who didn't go to Israel and chose to go to the UK, US, Canada instead.
    In fact one Iraqi Jew who left in Iraq in the 70s who lives in the UK now has become online friends with me. His avatar on the forum we frequent is a menorah holding the coat of arms of the 1958 revolution led by Qassim.




  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #48 - July 29, 2010, 12:22 AM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 29, 2010, 12:16 AM
    Despite all of that, the US didn't like him and orchestrated his assassination because he made friends with the commies !!


    History of the world in the 20th century, check south america and many African countries, Iran, Pakistan etc etc.... same pattern everywhere. What we are reaping now is the result of what was sown during the cold war. Our (America's, UK's etc's) chickens coming home to roost, unfortunately.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #49 - July 29, 2010, 12:24 AM
    One cycle that I see a lot in various Islamic countries like Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. is that the people and government are liberal and open minded, but then after some amount of years they start to get taken over by religious fanatics. There's probably some error in what I said, but that's what I'm noticing.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #50 - July 29, 2010, 12:28 AM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 29, 2010, 12:16 AM
    * Iraqi Jews love him so much that many of them still to this day have his picture hanged in their houses. Specially those who didn't go to Israel and chose to go to the UK, US, Canada instead.
    In fact one Iraqi Jew who left in Iraq in the 70s who lives in the UK now has become online friends with me. His avatar on the forum we frequent is a menorah holding the coat of arms of the 1958 revolution led by Qassim.

    (Clicky for piccy!)




    Thanks for telling me.  Didn't know much about him.  He seems like the Iraqi Mossadegh.  The West is directly responsible for what happened in Iran.  It reinstated the shah against the wishes of the Iranians and quite a lot of headaches started from there.  I wonder what the middle east would have been like if Qassim and Mossadegh were not overthrown.   I personally cannot see them having turned out to be total puppets of the USSR.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #51 - July 29, 2010, 12:32 AM
    Quote from: kb999 on July 29, 2010, 12:24 AM
    One cycle that I see a lot in various Islamic countries like Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. is that the people and government are liberal and open minded, but then after some amount of years they start to get taken over by religious fanatics. There's probably some error in what I said, but that's what I'm noticing.


    That was definitely the case in Pakistan..  Ironically the mullahs were opposed to the creation of the Pakistani state.  Iraq was not taken over by religious fanatics but by Baathists, with the blessing of the US.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #52 - July 29, 2010, 12:37 AM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 28, 2010, 11:59 PM
    Homes... my point was why did the "WE THE PEOPLE" get attacked?
    If the "enemy" was our leader, why were WE killed?

    When did I ever say your leader was your enemy? I'm not a truther  wacko



    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 28, 2010, 11:59 PM
    Tell me homes... who should the american people blame for 9/11 (bush isnt the answer,
    either lol)  From an american perspective, what would you EXPECT Americans to think,
    with all the anti american propaganda and sentiment gurgling out afterwards via video,
    news, media, etc?  Those vids of bin laden and his henchmen pilots?

    They should blame the 19 hijackers, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, and Muslims who supported the attacks (i.e extremist Muslims).

    Let me ask you JNT, who should Iraqis blame for Abu Ghraib? the soldeirs involved and their commanders who ignored the torture or ALL Americans?



    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 28, 2010, 11:59 PM
    Another EDIT:  19 muslims?  Oh methinks there were one or two more than
    that.  But  regardless... the propaganda afterwards from al quaida made
    it QUITE clear it was Islam vs. the American infadels

    So? why buy the Al-Qaida propaganda? is Al-Qaida the spokesman for Muslims?!
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #53 - July 29, 2010, 12:41 AM
    Ras... ive stayed up  nights wondering wth i was thinking, re Islam.  I even considered
    was  it partially Stockholm syndrome, as well!  No, it wasn't.  And no, I don't think
    Americans are culturally weak,  there are some incredible sub cultures, alive and well
    all over the USA.  Even some of us mutts in the melting pot identify with aspects of
    our cultural history back in the "old country".  I finally converted to Islam, because I
    WANTED to believe the big sky daddy still existed after I left xianity.  

    Remember too, that culturally,  the USA is VERY young compared to, well, basically
    everywhere else in the world lol.  The "dust" still hasn't settled, culturally, as  it has
    for thousands of years, elsewhere in the world.  
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #54 - July 29, 2010, 12:43 AM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on Today at 04:59 PM
    Homes... my point was why did the "WE THE PEOPLE" get attacked?
    If the "enemy" was our leader, why were WE killed?

    When did I ever say your leader was your enemy? I'm not a truther  

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    oh no, man! LOL I  wasnt implying that at all!  (I threw that in the mix
    because people I have discussed this with elsewhere have said it was "Bush's fault
    9/11 happened".  

    (EDIT)  nothing i have  written has been directed at you personally--at all!
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #55 - July 29, 2010, 12:48 AM
    Homes... FIRST, for the twentieth time, I HATE WAR!!  I don't  care if its the
    USA, or the King of Siam who is to blame.  There are no clear cut defined lines
    in war, only many shades of gray.  It breaks my heart into a million pieces when
    ANY innocents are killed  Cry   I have no control over any of it.  I don't know what
    else to say.  It hurts like hell, and I am not even sure what the hell I'm debating
    for, other than trying to explain WHY I feel the way I do, and perhaps many
    Americans, as well.  Cry
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #56 - July 29, 2010, 12:50 AM
    Quote from: allat on July 29, 2010, 12:22 AM
    History of the world in the 20th century, check south america and many African countries, Iran, Pakistan etc etc.... same pattern everywhere. What we are reaping now is the result of what was sown during the cold war. Our (America's, UK's etc's) chickens coming home to roost, unfortunately.

    Exactly. The Iranian Revolution, Saddam, and Taliban were all direct results of the anti-communist policies of the West.


    Quote from: kb999 on July 29, 2010, 12:24 AM
    One cycle that I see a lot in various Islamic countries like Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. is that the people and government are liberal and open minded, but then after some amount of years they start to get taken over by religious fanatics. There's probably some error in what I said, but that's what I'm noticing.

    Well I can speak only for Iraq.
    America invaded Iraq, toppled its government, dissolved its police, army, and security apparatus, and left the borders totally open for several months to any Islamist fucker from Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Pakistan. On top of that, it actively encouraged and enticed exiled theocratic opposition leaders to come back, funded them with millions of dollars of sweet American money, granted them unprecedented privileges, dealt with them as "representative of the communities", granted them jurisdiction in some areas as well as the right to form unregulated militias.


    Quote from: ras111 on July 29, 2010, 12:28 AM
    Thanks for telling me.  Didn't know much about him.  He seems like the Iraqi Mossadegh.  The West is directly responsible for what happened in Iran.  It reinstated the shah against the wishes of the Iranians and quite a lot of headaches started from there.  I wonder what the middle east would have been like if Qassim and Mossadegh were not overthrown.   I personally cannot see them having turned out to be total puppets of the USSR.

    It would be a better world I think.
    Qassim was not concerned about the USSR. He was busy fighting illiteracy and building hospitals and schools. Like I said he opposed pan-Arabism and antagonized Nasser. He was a modest down-to-earth guy who didn't even have bodyguards. When he died he only had less than $1000 in his bank account. He sued to sleep in his office FFS !!

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #57 - July 29, 2010, 12:55 AM
    I HATE war  Cry
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #58 - July 29, 2010, 01:03 AM
    Forget about it J&T. hugs  We're never gonna agree  Cheesy

    Oh and fuck war.  Afro
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #59 - July 29, 2010, 01:06 AM
    Can't think of anyone who likes war if we come to that, apart from those few who profit from it and leave the fighting for other people.  Thing is that it's a necessary evil sometimes.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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