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Theme Changer

 Topic: Did Islam liberate women!

 (Read 11562 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Did Islam liberate women!
     OP - July 30, 2010, 12:09 AM
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qME-yPXVg0k&feature=related


    Veiling for the love of allah? Roll Eyes whistling2


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #1 - July 30, 2010, 12:25 AM
    Quote from: hypocrucifier Starts a thread on July 30, 2010, 12:09 AM

    Did Islam liberate women!

    Veiling for the love of allah? Roll Eyes whistling2

    This is such an important subjectm  why is it in The Lounge  hypocrucifier??  CEMB does have folder that is named as  "Women in Islam" at
     http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=28.0 .

    Anyways  it is a very good idea to compare the lives of woman before the birth of Islam and after Islam in that Arabian peninsula . There is very little information out there on this subject during that time.,  i.e. 50 years before the birth of Muhammad and 50 years after the birth of Muhammad..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #2 - July 30, 2010, 12:29 AM
    I don't know what to think of this hadith mentioned in the video:

    Quote
    Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301, narrated by Abu Said al-Khudri :

    Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

    ...Let's not even try to get started with 4:34.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #3 - July 30, 2010, 12:56 AM
    For its time, yes it did. Obligatory alimony and entitling women for inheritance and private property were all revolutionary for its time.
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #4 - July 30, 2010, 08:16 AM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 30, 2010, 12:56 AM
    For its time, yes it did. Obligatory alimony and entitling women for inheritance and private property were all revolutionary for its time.


    A definite conclusion can only be drawn if, like yeezvee says, the life of women prior to the coming of Islam were known from purely historical sources and compared to their life after Islam.

    If Khadija's life prior to islam were to be taken as an indicator then definitely their position has deteriorated after Islam ! The 'wild and free women' have been conveniently tamed by the injunctions of the holy quran. As it's the alleged 'WORD OF GOD', the poor women have been trapped comprehensively by the machinations of patriarchy.

    If she was an exception to the rule, like you seem to imply then IT hasn't really done much to improve their position, has IT?

    You need a severe infection of the kope virus  to be able to see the women in Islam as freer than their non Muslim sisters especially in the West.
    I reiterate that something like women's liberty has to be embedded in a culture's ethos and can't be legislated or enforced by any stupid religion's injunctions.                                                                                                         

    But alas! man's social progress has lagged behind his great scientific progress, because of the veiling influence of things like religion that prevent the acceleration of social evolution to keep pace with the progress of science.


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #5 - July 30, 2010, 08:18 AM
     MODS, can this be moved to 'The women in Islam'  section?

    NOTE: Already moved by the time I posted my reply. Thank you Allat!


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #6 - July 30, 2010, 01:26 PM
    Like I said considering the time, it was an improvement. Women were not entitled to private property in many parts of Europe.
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #7 - July 30, 2010, 01:35 PM
    the problem with islam is that its just very resistant to change. i don't know enough history but it might very well have been an improvement on the status quo with regards to women.
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #8 - July 30, 2010, 01:36 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 30, 2010, 01:26 PM
    Like I said considering the time, it was an improvement. Women were not entitled to private property in many parts of Europe.


    How do you explain people like Khadija and her influential position then then?  Perhaps the Bedouins were sexist, but then Muhammad was not a Bedouin, he was from the city and I doubt whether the Bedouins practiced infanticide on the scale they were alleged to have done it and I doubt whether they changed their ways too much after Muhammad.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #9 - July 30, 2010, 02:05 PM
    I'd say Islam advanced some rights of women in divine law, but it also negated others. The fact is, while ancient peoples were extremely oppressive towards women (more so than the Quran or Hadiths) they also never necessarily considered such social conditions divine mandated - so even if Islam did improve aspects of womens rights it also froze it permanently in the medieval era, not allowing for any future further progress.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #10 - July 30, 2010, 02:10 PM
    Winner!
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #11 - July 30, 2010, 02:48 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on July 30, 2010, 01:36 PM
    How do you explain people like Khadija and her influential position then then?  Perhaps the Bedouins were sexist, but then Muhammad was not a Bedouin, he was from the city and I doubt whether the Bedouins practiced infanticide on the scale they were alleged to have done it and I doubt whether they changed their ways too much after Muhammad.

    Khadija was rich. She's not representative of the average woman in pre-Islmic Mecca.


    Quote from: Iblis on July 30, 2010, 02:05 PM
    I'd say Islam advanced some rights of women in divine law, but it also negated others. The fact is, while ancient peoples were extremely oppressive towards women (more so than the Quran or Hadiths) they also never necessarily considered such social conditions divine mandated - so even if Islam did improve aspects of womens rights it also froze it permanently in the medieval era, not allowing for any future further progress.

    +1
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #12 - July 30, 2010, 02:51 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on July 30, 2010, 02:05 PM
    I'd say Islam advanced some rights of women in divine law, but it also negated others. The fact is, while ancient peoples were extremely oppressive towards women (more so than the Quran or Hadiths) they also never necessarily considered such social conditions divine mandated - so even if Islam did improve aspects of womens rights it also froze it permanently in the medieval era, not allowing for any future further progress.


    Not all ancient peoples.  Women were held in high regard in ancient Celtic societies.  I'm sure those pagan societies with fertility goddess cults respected women, far more than the Romans did..  How do you explain Khadija and her influential position then?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #13 - July 30, 2010, 02:53 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 30, 2010, 02:48 PM
    Khadija was rich. She's not representative of the average woman in pre-Islmic Mecca.


    Ok but how much else do we know about pre Islamic Mecca apart from what Muhammad wanted us to know?  I'm not denying that he could have improved women's lot mind you, but there is the chance that the opposite could have happened as well.  I wouldn't really trust Islamic sources to get my information anymore than I would trust Roman accounts about the Gauls and the way they lived.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #14 - July 30, 2010, 02:54 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on July 30, 2010, 02:51 PM
    Not all ancient peoples.  Women were held in high regard in ancient Celtic societies.  I'm sure those pagan societies with fertility goddess cults respected women, far more than the Romans did..  How do you explain Khadija and her influential position then?


    Look, in every society there were certain instances which make it look like women were held in high regard. But those are exceptions to the rule. In Celtic soceity women were by and large still considered property of men and they were no better than any others. Many Arab tribes had women leaders and chieftains and spiritual shamans. Turkic peoples and nomads had women warriors too. But these were all exceptional cases. 95% of women living before the 1900s were property of men with nearly zero rights, that's the fact of the ancient world.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #15 - July 30, 2010, 02:57 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on July 30, 2010, 02:54 PM
    Look, in every society there were certain instances which make it look like women were held in high regard. But those are exceptions to the rule. In Celtic soceity women were by and large still considered property of men and they were no better than any others. Many Arab tribes had women leaders and chieftains and spiritual shamans. Turkic peoples and nomads had women warriors too. But these were all exceptional cases. 95% of women living before the 1900s were property of men with nearly zero rights, that's the fact of the ancient world.


    No in Celtic societies they were far better off than in other contemporary societies.  It was not just individuals.  They were allowed to hold property, divorce, rule and even fight in battles.  You did not see that in Greek and Roman societies.   Did the Turkic nomads have women warriors after converting to Islam?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #16 - July 30, 2010, 03:03 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on July 30, 2010, 02:57 PM
    No in Celtic societies they were far better off than in other contemporary societies.  It was not just individuals.  They were allowed to hold property, divorce, rule and even fight in battles.  


    They were definitely better off than their contemporary (especially rome and greece). But I think those romanticised imagery of extended rights only applied to noble women. Not the majority. This was not special for just celtic society, most martial tribal peoples had more elevated roles for women. But I doubt this applied to the majority.

    Quote
    Did the Turkic nomads have women warriors after converting to Islam?


    Those customs obviously faded after Islam. Many turkic tribes only nominally converted to Islam so even in the Seljuk era (900s-1000s) many supposedly Muslim Turkic tribes (ie turcomans) still had active women warriors who partook in massacres and battles. But as Islam became more imbedded those customs were abolished.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #17 - July 30, 2010, 03:11 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 30, 2010, 12:56 AM
    For its time, yes it did. Obligatory alimony and entitling women for inheritance and private property were all revolutionary for its time.

    Revolutionary, for Arabia, you could argue.

    Obligatory alimony and property ownership for women were actually a part of ancient Egyptian and Hebrew law.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #18 - July 30, 2010, 03:14 PM
    I doubt it was "revolutionary". The contemporary sources don't seem to sound that excited about it. It was only in the 20th century that Muslims started to push the "he improved women's rights" bullshit. I think overall Islam's impact on women's right relative to ancient/medieval arabia was mostly negligible and maybe a very slight positive at best. Which is irrelvant since its a huge negative relative to now
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #19 - July 30, 2010, 03:20 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on July 30, 2010, 02:05 PM
    I'd say Islam advanced some rights of women in divine law, but it also negated others. The fact is, while ancient peoples were extremely oppressive towards women (more so than the Quran or Hadiths) they also never necessarily considered such social conditions divine mandated - so even if Islam did improve aspects of womens rights it also froze it permanently in the medieval era, not allowing for any future further progress.

    Quote from: Iblis on July 30, 2010, 03:03 PM
    Those customs obviously faded after Islam. Many turkic tribes only nominally converted to Islam so even in the Seljuk era (900s-1000s) many supposedly Muslim Turkic tribes (ie turcomans) still had active women warriors who partook in massacres and battles. But as Islam became more imbedded those customs were abolished.

    You got it down there. Afro
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #20 - July 30, 2010, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on July 30, 2010, 02:53 PM
    Ok but how much else do we know about pre Islamic Mecca apart from what Muhammad wanted us to know?  I'm not denying that he could have improved women's lot mind you, but there is the chance that the opposite could have happened as well.  I wouldn't really trust Islamic sources to get my information anymore than I would trust Roman accounts about the Gauls and the way they lived.

    Well I once read an article by a Harvad Divinity School professor about the subject. He said that Islam improved rights for women and was "revolutionary" for its time. He said women under Islamic rule were better off than women in many parts of the world and he referenced a lot of sources.

    I can't seem to find the article but I will post it here when I do.
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #21 - July 30, 2010, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on July 30, 2010, 02:57 PM
    No in Celtic societies they were far better off than in other contemporary societies.  It was not just individuals.  They were allowed to hold property, divorce, rule and even fight in battles.  You did not see that in Greek and Roman societies.   Did the Turkic nomads have women warriors after converting to Islam?


    A woman led the largest Celtic uprising against the Romans occupying Britain if I recall correctly.

    fuck you
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #22 - July 30, 2010, 03:43 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on July 30, 2010, 03:36 PM
    Well I once read an article by a Harvad Divinity School professor about the subject. He said that Islam improved rights for women and was "revolutionary" for its time. He said women under Islamic rule were better off than women in many parts of the world and he referenced a lot of sources.

    I can't seem to find the article but I will post it here when I do.

    Is it by Leila Ahmed?

    http://www.islamfortoday.com/leilaahmed.htm
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #23 - July 30, 2010, 03:50 PM
    No not the Egyptian lady. It was a gentleman with an English name. 
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #24 - July 30, 2010, 04:09 PM
    I overlooked the "he" in your post.  whistling2

    So alright, which one?

    http://www.hds.harvard.edu/faculty/index.html

    I'm guessing it's William A. Graham.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #25 - July 30, 2010, 04:18 PM
    I don't remember. But I will google it and post it.  Afro
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #26 - July 30, 2010, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on July 30, 2010, 02:05 PM
    I'd say Islam advanced some rights of women in divine law, but it also negated others. The fact is, while ancient peoples were extremely oppressive towards women (more so than the Quran or Hadiths) they also never necessarily considered such social conditions divine mandated - so even if Islam did improve aspects of womens rights it also froze it permanently in the medieval era, not allowing for any future further progress.

    +1
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #27 - July 31, 2010, 12:58 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on July 30, 2010, 02:05 PM
    I'd say Islam advanced some rights of women in divine law, but it also negated others. The fact is, while ancient peoples were extremely oppressive towards women (more so than the Quran or Hadiths) they also never necessarily considered such social conditions divine mandated - so even if Islam did improve aspects of womens rights it also froze it permanently in the medieval era, not allowing for any future further progress.

    Iblis those words need to expanded  a bit with examples from Islamic Scriptures(Quran & Hadith/Sunnah  and early Islamic history from the time Muhammad came in to Power that is after the death of Khadija to let us say another 300 year after the death of Prophet of Islam.

    That is a very important point which need to be explained in detail to those who are NOT familiar with Islam.
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #28 - July 31, 2010, 10:21 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on July 31, 2010, 12:58 PM
    Iblis those words need to expanded  a bit with examples from Islamic Scriptures(Quran & Hadith/Sunnah  and early Islamic history from the time Muhammad came in to Power that is after the death of Khadija to let us say another 300 year after the death of Prophet of Islam.

    That is a very important point which need to be explained in detail to those who are NOT familiar with Islam.


    Nah, I think I'll pass. Why don't you?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Did Islam liberate women!
     Reply #29 - August 01, 2010, 12:09 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on July 31, 2010, 10:21 PM
    Nah, I think I'll pass. Why don't you?

    Grrrr.. Common Iblis  .. Take some responsibilities..  

    Any way My problem is NOT Women in Islam or Women of Islam ., My Problem is LIBERATING MEN FROM ISLAM BY making them a Strict Muslim. And The way to do that is. To clean shave them and  put the Rascals in burqa whenever they are out of homes I think Role reversal in Islam will help with the trauma that Muslim community will be under in this century
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »