Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #120 - August 25, 2010, 12:48 AM

there does seem to be something very dignified about the way christian schools are run. they may teach some bullshit facts, but the value system is pretty ok.

missionary schools have a great reputation in india.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #121 - August 25, 2010, 05:43 AM

Okay, just watched it.

So, ummm, the UK is fucked?

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #122 - August 25, 2010, 04:37 PM

I watched it too - good documentary

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #123 - August 28, 2010, 09:51 AM

At the heart of Dawkin's argument is the question of whether religiously brainwashed parents have a basic "right" to have their own offspring subjected to the same brainwashing.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #124 - August 28, 2010, 09:55 AM

Yes, it was a difficult question, made all the more harder by the arguments he put forward

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #125 - August 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

I think Dawkins' answer would be a clear NO. Here's the rub:

As I have said elsewhere, I was spared religious indoctrination as a child by parents who were not themselves serious churchgoers. Having the outlook that has resulted from this I say that my parents would have had NO right to subject my pliable young mind to religious brainwashing had they been so inclined. However, had I in fact been given over by my parents to be made into a fervent Roman Catholic I would now in all likelyhood say that they had EVERY right to do this and I have every right to do likewise to my own kids.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #126 - August 29, 2010, 10:01 AM

Did anyone catch this criticism of the program by Erfana Bora and the ensuing comments pwnage? It'd probably be more entertaining if these complete fuckwits weren't brazenly brainwashing children.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #127 - August 29, 2010, 02:59 PM

Allways liked dawkins, read his books, but there are some points i disagree with him. Thats what an atheistic worldview is all about, isnt it? I even had a short discussion with him on his old website once.

I never got the hate he gets sometimes. Yes, he is aggressive... but compared to aggressive religious fundamentalist, hes a puppy. He does exactly what the democratic, secular west is all about... he uses his Right of free speech to talk about a topic that was tabu, and in some places still is tabu. If thats as radical as an aggreessive Atheist gets, im more then happy about it. And since his documentaries are allways broadcasted, i guess there are at least some people that are interested in what he says.

just my 2 cents.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #128 - August 29, 2010, 04:05 PM

I just saw all of this on YouTube. Very good video with some very good points.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #129 - August 29, 2010, 05:07 PM

Quote from: DigDeep on August 29, 2010, 02:59 PM
Allways liked dawkins, read his books, but there are some points i disagree with him. Thats what an atheistic worldview is all about, isnt it? I even had a short discussion with him on his old website once.

I never got the hate he gets sometimes. Yes, he is aggressive... but compared to aggressive religious fundamentalist, hes a puppy. He does exactly what the democratic, secular west is all about... he uses his Right of free speech to talk about a topic that was tabu, and in some places still is tabu. If thats as radical as an aggreessive Atheist gets, im more then happy about it. And since his documentaries are allways broadcasted, i guess there are at least some people that are interested in what he says.

just my 2 cents.

Yea to be completely technical, there is no such thing as an atheistic world view. I think what me really means is a scientific ie skeptical world view which aren't exactly the same because you have be an atheist while completely rejecting all or some of the scientific world view or scientific sense of skepticism.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #130 - August 29, 2010, 05:23 PM

Quote from: DH on August 28, 2010, 10:02 AM
I think Dawkins' answer would be a clear NO. Here's the rub:

As I have said elsewhere, I was spared religious indoctrination as a child by parents who were not themselves serious churchgoers. Having the outlook that has resulted from this I say that my parents would have had NO right to subject my pliable young mind to religious brainwashing had they been so inclined. However, had I in fact been given over by my parents to be made into a fervent Roman Catholic I would now in all likelyhood say that they had EVERY right to do this and I have every right to do likewise to my own kids.

I wasn't religiously indoctrinated by my mom, but I think she had the right to do it. Parents have the right to impart their worldview and values, religious or otherwise, on their kids, at least until such time as the nuclear family, as we know it, no longer exists.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #131 - August 29, 2010, 05:36 PM

That point is pretty hazy for me. The issue of asemetrical rights is a pretty hard nut to crack. To take an extreme what if a parent teaches their children that everyone in the world are evil demons made to look human and if they take a step off the premises then they will eat them and in fact they have satellites trained to look down on them at every moment. I know this is an extreme example but where do the rights and responsibilities of a parent to teach a child end and the child's right not to be bombarded with dogma by the person who they innately trust and depend on?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #132 - August 29, 2010, 05:49 PM

Quote from: thinkfree on August 29, 2010, 10:01 AM
Did anyone catch this criticism of the program by Erfana Bora and the ensuing comments pwnage? It'd probably be more entertaining if these complete fuckwits weren't brazenly brainwashing children.

The comments on the bottom of that page are refreshingly critical of the article.

My favourite:

"Try telling a child in year seven that the question of where matter comes from is essentially unanswerable and therefore should not be asked. Often the response is "Why not? That's stupid"."

Sure. So tell them it was created by, say, Allah. Then when they ask where Allah comes from, tell them that that's essentially unanswerable and therefore should not be asked.

And if the response then is 'Why not? That's stupid,' then...?

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #133 - August 29, 2010, 05:59 PM

Quote from: deusvult on August 29, 2010, 05:36 PM
That point is pretty hazy for me. The issue of asemetrical rights is a pretty hard nut to crack. To take an extreme what if a parent teaches their children that everyone in the world are evil demons made to look human and if they take a step off the premises then they will eat them and in fact they have satellites trained to look down on them at every moment.

If the parent believes it themselves (which is what we are talking about here-- parents indoctrinating their kids with their own beliefs) then they are likely schizophrenic, not on any meds, and thus unfit to raise a child alone.

Quote
the child's right not to be bombarded with dogma by the person who they innately trust and depend on?

There is no such right.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #134 - August 29, 2010, 06:07 PM

You're two reply cancel each other out though. How crazy a parent is doesn't factor into a child's decision not to hear it if no such right exists. Then the only relevant criterion is if the parent is physically harming the child by abuse or neglect. Teaching their children absolutely bat shit insane things such as the extreme examply doesn't matter as long as they aren't in any physical danger.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #135 - August 29, 2010, 06:14 PM

I'm not basing it on the fact that the parent is teaching the child insane things, but that the parent is insane themselves, which raises the potential for abuse or neglect dramatically. A person who is schizophrenic to the degree you described and is not managing their illness is unfit to raise a child alone whether or not they are teaching their delusions to their kids.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #136 - August 29, 2010, 07:00 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on August 29, 2010, 05:23 PM
I wasn't religiously indoctrinated by my mom, but I think she had the right to do it. Parents have the right to impart their worldview and values, religious or otherwise, on their kids, at least until such time as the nuclear family, as we know it, no longer exists.

I hate to admit it, but I think you're right (as long as not state funds are used towards it)

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #137 - August 29, 2010, 07:06 PM

Quote from: IsLame on August 29, 2010, 07:00 PM
I hate to admit it, but I think you're right

Why do you hate to admit it? Fuckface.

Quote
(as long as not state funds are used towards it)

This is key. I think the practice you guys have over there of publicly-funding religious schools is totally fucked. The US may have its own serious problems with rampant religiosity affecting public policy, but at least we don't use tax money to religiously indoctrinate kids.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #138 - August 29, 2010, 11:55 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on August 29, 2010, 07:06 PM
Why do you hate to admit it? .

Because I'd love to end this indoctrination at its core, buggers brainwash them soon after they leave the umbilical cord

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #139 - August 30, 2010, 12:02 AM

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #140 - September 01, 2010, 04:36 AM

Quote from: Q-Man
I wasn't religiously indoctrinated by my mom, but I think she had the right to do it. Parents have the right to impart their worldview and values, religious or otherwise, on their kids, at least until such time as the nuclear family, as we know it, no longer exists.

Would you say they also have the right to do whatever it takes to keep their kids away from contra-indoctrination influences eg withdrawing them from classes that teach evolution or even school altogether if they see fit?

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Re: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4
Reply #141 - September 01, 2010, 05:09 AM

the most basic point of breeding is making copies of self, and it's not just about genes for humans.
in a tribe as big as a country, it's impossible to have a solitary culture.

Why would I go to the trouble of bringing up someone I don't like?
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