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 Topic: introduction (mark II)

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  • introduction (mark II)
     OP - September 05, 2010, 01:08 PM
    Hi everyone,
    I guess it's not customary for people to have two introduction threads, but for reasons which should become obvious after this post I won't respond to any of the posts made in the other thread. Instead what I will say is:

    When I said in my (other) opining post; that what I expected to get personally out of posting here, was to test if my faith could remain strong and logical, while critically analyzing it on this forum, and how I hoped that this could yet again reaffirm the correctness of my faith; I wasn't lying. That really was my motivation for coming here. See, what I hadn't explained that when I posted that I was really depressed. My wife had just left me after being married only 5 months because she thinks I am to strict in following Islam, depriving myself of to many pleasures of the world, whereas she despite having converted to Islam as well, still desires to enjoy life. I had been kind and patient with her the whole full 5 months, whereas she had been mentally and verbally abusive the whole time. Despite my patience and me trying to cater to her every need; she still dropped me like a stone brick. And that kind of made my imaan sink down to my shoes. I had trouble following Islaam emotionally even though rationally it still made perfect sense that Allah was just testing me. After a short stay here, it appeared to me that most people who apostated here; did so because of emotional reasons. That all the "rational" arguments are all debatable and up to interpretation. That a person first desires to leave Islam, and then finds arguments and that comfort him to go ahead and do this. And I decided that leaving Islam this way would be the most stupid thing I could do, and would bring me eternal damnation, so I casted away my doubts, and started working on becoming a better muslim. Doing more acts of worship, being even more strict on myself. Basically just doing my upmost best. But for a few weeks it worked and despite of being emotionally out of tune, I had days where I felt imaan and was happy being a convinced muslim again.

    But then a few days ago, I read something that I cannot reconcile with science. Now, it wasn't the first time I read something in a hadeeth like that, but this time was different. I have always throughout the whole period of being a muslim remained critical in the sense that I didn't want to follow a religion "blindly". But up until now every time I found something that was "troublesome" I would find a way to reconcile my critisism and scientific background with Islam. This time I couldn't. I couldn't dismiss the contradiction as false interpretations. It was just to obviously wrong. Neither could I dismiss it as being a false hadeeth, the chain of narrations is so strong, and rejecting it would mean I'd have to reject major parts of Islam as well. And for days now I've been on the fence. I'm simply no longer convinced. I try and keep praying and make dua that Allah would guide me, and keep reading and do everything in the hope that this is just a test and things would become clear to me after a while if I'm just patient. I guess you could say I'm on the fence. I find it hard to be convinced, but I find it hard to think of myself as a non-believer as well. Some moments I have faith again, and feel good, and then other moments I feel like I'm just fooling myself. 

    Today I started to continue reading Hassan's blog, this one paragraph really caught my attention:
    “And some men worship Allah on an edge, if any good reaches him, he is content, but if trial befalls him, he turns back on his face, losing the world of this life and the Hereafter. This is the greatest loss.”
    Was this me? The selfish fair-weather believer who believes only when things are going well, but runs away when things get tough? Was I about to lose it all – this world and the next? Should I suppress all doubts and stay loyal to Muslims in their time of hardship? Is that what being a good Muslim is about? Loyalty, even though it is to a lie? I found so much in Islam that terrified me about having doubts. The psychological pressure to suppress them was enormous. Questioning something I had believed in utterly all my adult life was hard enough, but when the consequences seemed so severe and the sense of betrayal so strong, doubt became unthinkable.
    I guess this is the point where I am at right now...
    www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #1 - September 05, 2010, 01:15 PM
     Afro

    You're questioning, there isn't much else you can do right now. Take your time, you'll get answers one way or the other, eventually.

    For the record, I had no emotional reasons for leaving Islam.
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #2 - September 05, 2010, 01:21 PM
    Out of curiosity, what was the hadith?

    I'm sorry about your situation with your wife, myself being an ex-Salafi was also in the situation where I alienated everyone who ever cared about me becuse I wanted to follow Islam to the letter, so I can empathise. Too little Islam and you're not part of their culture and an outcast but too much, and you're a man with no life and you have something wrong with you. Absolute hypocrisy...
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #3 - September 05, 2010, 01:31 PM
    Hi,
    I'd rather not go into the details of that specific hadeeth right now. Maybe I'll share once I've made my mind up ^_^
    www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #4 - September 05, 2010, 01:32 PM
    Hope it was the giant adam hadith.  dance
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #5 - September 05, 2010, 01:36 PM
    Your story is very familiar to all of us who have struggled with our faith and belief, even non-muslims. It's one of the most difficult parts of our spiritual journey - the awakening to the fact that things may not be as they seem.

    Very sorry to hear about your marital situation and depression. You are at a cross road, so take your time and explore whatever you come across in your research. There are no hard and fast rules or deadlines so just see where things go. Don't try to label yourself as this or that. Nothing wrong with sitting on the fence. Sometimes it's good to step back and re-examine your principles and decisions.

     far away hug
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #6 - September 05, 2010, 01:53 PM
    Oh on another note,
    Many of these unscientific hadeeth which I was able to reconcile in the past, suddenly appear to be a whole let reconcilable when I think back of them now. Maybe if I would have read this hadeeth before, I would have had no issue with it either? So yet again I think our views are determined by our subconscious desires and not by our ability to think rational. this is the main thing that is keeping me on the fence. Realizing that these doubts come from a subconscious desire to leave Islam. I just can't get myself to accept that, or to leave Islam because of that. I'm also afraid to throw away the baby with the bath water. Just cause some parts are false doesn't mean all is false. This is really annoying, because I realize it may take weeks or months to think everything trough thoroughly, and I don't want to stop rituals until I'm absolutely positively convinced Islam is false, yet I find it hard to find the energy to do so.
    www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #7 - September 05, 2010, 02:01 PM
    Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on September 05, 2010, 01:53 PM
    Realizing that these doubts come from a subconscious desire to leave Islam.


    Conversely, your attempts at reconciliation may come form a subconscious desire to remain Muslim.
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #8 - September 05, 2010, 02:05 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on September 05, 2010, 01:15 PM
    Afro

    You're questioning, there isn't much else you can do right now. Take your time, you'll get answers one way or the other, eventually.

    +1

    There are other Muslims on this forum (abuyunus2, Julien, etc) and we treat them with respect.  Feel free to post any questions on this forum for us to discuss.


    Sorry to hear about your marital situation and depression. hugs


    Although, it may be true that some people leave Islam for emotional reasons, I would argue that almost all our decisions have input from the emotional part of our brain.  As you know, people convert to Islam for emotional reasons too.
    I was well aware that people would say: 'he left Islam because of this.. or that.. blah blah';  so I tried to be as rational and objective as possible.  I spent several months researching for myself, and concluded that the evidence in favour of a personal, anthropomorphic, creator God was extremely weak, and all the absurd, dogmatic claims in Islam had no positive evidence to back them up.  So the default position should be non-theism, not theism.  Smiley
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #9 - September 05, 2010, 02:19 PM
    Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on September 05, 2010, 01:53 PM
    Oh on another note,
    Many of these unscientific hadeeth which I was able to reconcile in the past, suddenly appear to be a whole let reconcilable when I think back of them now. Maybe if I would have read this hadeeth before, I would have had no issue with it either? So yet again I think our views are determined by our subconscious desires and not by our ability to think rational. this is the main thing that is keeping me on the fence. Realizing that these doubts come from a subconscious desire to leave Islam. I just can't get myself to accept that, or to leave Islam because of that. I'm also afraid to throw away the baby with the bath water. Just cause some parts are false doesn't mean all is false. This is really annoying, because I realize it may take weeks or months to think everything trough thoroughly, and I don't want to stop rituals until I'm absolutely positively convinced Islam is false, yet I find it hard to find the energy to do so.


    Maybe you would like to incorporate the good parts into your own philosophy on life, just because some bits of the Quran and the Hadith make no sense or are violent doesn't mean there is nothing to be gained from its philosophy. You can be a Deist with a philosophy which is a fusion of different traditions dogmas and teachings, you don't have to confine yourself to Islam.
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #10 - September 05, 2010, 02:35 PM
    @ Spinoza
    Yeah I realize that as well. But I don't have trouble accept that within the Islamic point of view. If Islam is true, I was guided trough emotions because Allah wanted to guide me. However this also means that right now he wants me to leave Islam, because no matter how sincerely I ask him to guide me to Islam and not to abandon me, and make believing easy for me, I still have doubts and troubles accepting.

    @ Lilyesque
    The doubts I'm having are all coming from hadeeth, not from the Qur'an itself. So that's another thing that's keeping me on the fence. I still believe the Qur'an is true. Although at the same time, I realize that isn't as meaningful if you reject a bunch of hadeeth that explain it. If all you have is belief in the Qur'an what you're left with is a watered down version of Islam. The mere thought of following that seems hypocrite. Yet at the same time I cannot reject the Qur'an based on the existence of questionable hadeeth. and then yet again, rejecting haeeth would mean rejecting mainstream Islam. It's all very contradictory and confusing at this point...
    www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #11 - September 05, 2010, 02:39 PM
    Ever thought about why 'out-dated' verses were kept in the qur'an? It's occured to me recently that I've never heard a scholar's opinion on that that. Would like to know what the accepted answer is. Any thoughts?
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #12 - September 05, 2010, 02:40 PM
    Isn't there anything in the quran which you are dubious about?
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #13 - September 05, 2010, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on September 05, 2010, 01:31 PM
    Hi,
    I'd rather not go into the details of that specific hadeeth right now. Maybe I'll share once I've made my mind up ^_^

    Hey, I am sure we can help  you reconcile it even from an Islamic perspective, note there are many here who were muslims just like you, and know more about Islam that the average muslim.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #14 - September 05, 2010, 02:44 PM
    Besides which have you ever thought that due to the Hadith being published 200 yrs later than the Quran that they are in a way irrelevant to Islam itself as Mohammad only ever "revealed" the Quran. This would therefore lead to as you have said, not much of a religion as such. This would therefore lead me to question it's divine origin and therefore would make me think that maybe it was a book of it's time with some good advice but perhaps is out of date now.
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #15 - September 05, 2010, 02:46 PM
    btw I am not one who decided to leave Islam for emotional reasons (although they do exist).

    I would never sacrifice myself to damnations flames for such a dumb reason, nor until i was sure.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #16 - September 05, 2010, 02:47 PM
    I won't answer those questions because I'd hate for this to become yet another debate-thread like the previous thread. So instead I'll just put it like this:
    While some verses are easy to believe in and others hard to believe; I still find the hard ones plausible to some extend, and the easy ones still convince me that the Qur'an is genuine.
    www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #17 - September 05, 2010, 02:49 PM
    sounds like you are completely hooked into Islam - it really is such a strong virus, but I wish you all the best in whatever choices you make
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #18 - September 05, 2010, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on September 05, 2010, 01:53 PM
    Oh on another note,
    Many of these unscientific hadeeth which I was able to reconcile in the past, suddenly appear to be a whole let reconcilable when I think back of them now. Maybe if I would have read this hadeeth before, I would have had no issue with it either?

    It's that you want it to be true.

    It doesn't matter how you twist and turn it, as long as it will support your belief.


    Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on September 05, 2010, 01:53 PM
    So yet again I think our views are determined by our subconscious desires and not by our ability to think rational. this is the main thing that is keeping me on the fence. Realizing that these doubts come from a subconscious desire to leave Islam.

    You're deceiving yourself. The opposite couldn't be truer.

    Didn't you say that you came to believe upon being "emotionally moved" by the Qur'an?


    Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on September 05, 2010, 01:53 PM
    I just can't get myself to accept that, or to leave Islam because of that. I'm also afraid to throw away the baby with the bath water. Just cause some parts are false doesn't mean all is false. This is really annoying, because I realize it may take weeks or months to think everything trough thoroughly, and I don't want to stop rituals until I'm absolutely positively convinced Islam is false, yet I find it hard to find the energy to do so.

    You're going to assume that it's true in the first place.

    Or you may be believing just-in-case.

    This stems from emotional dependency, or trauma of the fear of Hell.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #19 - September 05, 2010, 06:38 PM
    Abdul, ask yourself this: Do you really believe the Prophet Mohammed flying on a flying horse from Mecca to Jerusalem on a flying horse is scientifically possible?
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #20 - September 05, 2010, 06:44 PM
    Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on September 05, 2010, 01:31 PM
    Hi,
    I'd rather not go into the details of that specific hadeeth right now. Maybe I'll share once I've made my mind up ^_^


    Abdul, please tell me which hadeaths you found unbelievable. I promise I won't debate you.  PM me those if you don't wish to share them here... Wink
    ...
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #21 - September 05, 2010, 07:12 PM
    Just to let you know we wont jump on your back for debating here, as long as you are reasonable and civil. We could act as a springboard for talking and feeding through your thoughts to and with. I offer myself as much as possible to talk to you, although I know very little Islamically, just give me a shout.  far away hug
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #22 - September 05, 2010, 07:45 PM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on September 05, 2010, 06:38 PM
    Abdul, ask yourself this: Do you really believe the Prophet Mohammed flying on a flying horse from Mecca to Jerusalem on a flying horse is scientifically possible?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #23 - September 05, 2010, 08:24 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on September 05, 2010, 06:44 PM
    Abdul, please tell me which hadeaths you found unbelievable. I promise I won't debate you.  PM me those if you don't wish to share them here... Wink

    Same here, I'm just intrigued & I love listening to interesting hadith - is it sahih & one I would have heard before?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #24 - September 05, 2010, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on September 05, 2010, 06:38 PM
    Abdul, ask yourself this: Do you really believe the Prophet Mohammed flying on a flying horse from Mecca to Jerusalem on a flying horse is scientifically possible?

    Of course it is, we've had terradactyls, dinosaurs that were far heavier than the average horse.

    In any case Allah creates & can foil the laws of science.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #25 - September 05, 2010, 08:40 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 05, 2010, 08:27 PM
    Of course it is, we've had terradactyls, dinosaurs that were far heavier than the average horse.

    In any case Allah creates & can foil the laws of science.

    Yes, brother Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is the almighty - he is all powerful and his abilities are beyond our comprehension. If Allah wishes a flying horse to come into existence and grace the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) with its presence, then it is entirely possible.
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #26 - September 05, 2010, 08:50 PM
    Subhanallah!  sheikh
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #27 - September 05, 2010, 08:51 PM
    Sub hanna la la
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #28 - September 05, 2010, 08:55 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ME9t30fXIY
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #29 - September 05, 2010, 09:02 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 05, 2010, 08:50 PM
    Subhanallah!  sheikh

    Look at your own body, think, look how complex it is; trillions of cells - working in harmony, to create you, a living breathing, conscious human being. Where do you think it came from? Well, I'll tell you. Allah created you from a clot of blood. Now ask yourself this: if Allah can create you from almost nothing, then why does it seem absurd to you that it's possible for Allah to create a flying horse? For he is the almighty.

    Allahu akbar!




    PS: This is similar to what Muslims were telling me when I told them I couldn't believe that particular part of Islam. Thankfully their responses helped me to realise how retarded Islam is.
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

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