Firstly, thanks for taking time to reply. I don't consider myself close-minded or ignorant, I'm just trying to understand you and my own self as well. So yeah.
What does secularism have to do with anything? pls elaborate.
Or is it rationalism that you want me to abandon?
By secularism I mean the separation of God/Creator from governance. In other words, it is saying that it doesn't matter whether a person believes in God or not, laws are to be made by people. Muslims are supposed to reject this in it's entirety, because if you believe in a Creator then it would make sense that He would make the laws if He gave any. Of course if He gave nothing that's a different matter.
I do not want you to abandon rationality, because I use the same. So if we are both using rationality, and we understand it to mean the same thing (using previous knowledge, what we perceive through senses, the thought process and the ability to differentiate between things to make decisions) then we should come to the same conclusion right?
The only difference is this. We both agree this universe is created. I say that the Qur'an is from this Creator, you say it is not. So for me whatever is in the Qur'an is what the Creator is telling me, so I read it and find systems, beliefs, etc and I follow them.
For you, since the Qur'an is not from the Creator, you have to make up your own system and beliefs.
So my reply to things is "this is what Allah says" and your reply is "this is what I say." If you unlink the Qur'an from the Creator, then I would too become a deist.
Do we both see eye-to-eye here?
That is a joke, right? So i never was a true Muslim?
Are you implying i have been practicing 21 years of fake Islam, why?
Well I don't know what you knew of Islam, but I do know that Islam is taught from a secular perspective. It is heavily modified everywhere, whether you go to madinah university, al azhar university, dar al uloom deoband, etc.
People generally have no clue what practically it meant to practice islam as a whole. All they have is a bunch of regimes in muslim lands and scholars who try to please these tyrants. We only see contradictions. I would expect many people to leave islam, except many are emotional, or they want to follow their families, or are too scared of persecution.
And i would argue the same , what if its you who is looking at life through an Islamic lens, if no , why not?
Good you have noted that i am from Egypt, I hope you also noted that i lived in Saudi Arabia for 17 years.
So Isn't Saudi Arabia "the practical application" of Islam today, if not , why?
Yes of course I view stuff through an islamic lens. But I was raised looking at things through a secular/western lens.
I was raised in saudi arabia myself, but from birth I was in an american embassy school. I was raised under a US flag. I lived in saudi arabia 12 years and didn't learn arabic. That should give you some idea =/.
We each look at life through two ways:
A) reality, and that is objective.
B) what we perceive as right/wrong. You view right and wrong as harm/benefit as you see fit, I see it as whether the Creator says something is right or wrong.
For A we both agree that the rulers in muslim lands are tyrants. For B, we disagree whether say adultry is right or wrong (maybe you believe it's wrong too, it's just an example)
Saudi arabia is not islam at all. I'll give some examples.
They implement the punishment of chopping the hands. But they cause the poverty upon the people first, so they are to blame for him stealing. They hoard the wealth, and run a capitalistic economic system
Their banks are based on riba, I've seen this with my own eyes. They also play around with stuff behind the scenes so that people don't see it as clearly.
They invest in incorrect investments as a government (citigroup for instance), even though this is haram. They also allow foreign investments in both private things, public things, and state owned things. So many examples of this, as you can see corporations everywhere, especially in the oil business.
They allow the US to build huge military bases all over the country.
Most of their military is funded by the US either through intelligence, actual equipment, or money.
They do not defend the muslims that are suffering through the world, nor do they defend nonmuslims who are oppressed.
They did not liberate any of the illegal occupations, like in gaza or remove tyrants like the ones in egypt. Of course, the saudi monarchy is full of tyrants itself so that is to be expected.
They spend their time fighting shia or for the US.
There are so many other things. But this is just a start so you see they are not even close. This is not islam, this is just a smokescreen to fool people so they don't revolt. You were in egypt, you know how people like husni mubarak work right? Rig elections so he always wins, if people speak up they get tortured, etc.
Yes, i will .
If you can link it, (with tangible proof) i will be more than willing to revert.
So we should discuss this. Why I believe the Qur'an is from the Creator we believe in and why you don't.
Is that fair?
Which countries have implemented Islam well, Truthseeker?
None, islam is not represented at all anywhere. That's the problem.
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