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Theme Changer

 Topic: Prayer direction and flat earth!

 (Read 25960 times)
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  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #60 - October 01, 2010, 03:43 PM

    Quote
    Minus your indirect insults, it is the shortest distance because that is what the prophet peace be upon him did.

    When he peace be upon him was commanded to pray, the prayer was done along the surface of the earth, facing the kaba. He did not pray in the opposite direction, but the shortest direction.

    If it was not along the surface, then he peace be upon him would have been commanded to dig into the earth a bit to pray straight through it, or pray in the opposite unseen direction. But that did not happen. From my perspective the man is being guided by the Creator so I just copy him, by your perspective he's just another man so you look for short-term logic.


    1- indirect insults?? if you point them out i will be glad to appologize

    2- PBUH  was instructed in the quran... to face the kaaba NOT  face the shortest distance to the kaaba, so facing the otherway around is STILL facing the kaaba .. is my prayer void?

    3- this is circumstantial evidence to point out that PBUH had no idea the earth was a sphere

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #61 - October 02, 2010, 03:10 AM

    Interesting article to read:

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor has a problem. Two problems. The first is that Mecca keeps moving. Well, not really. It's Shukor who'll be moving. As Malaysia's first astronaut, he's scheduled to lift off October 10 in a Russian Soyuz spacecraft for a nine-day visit during the holy month of Ramadan to the International Space Station. He's a devout Muslim and when he says his daily prayers he wants to face Mecca, specifically the Ka'aba, the holiest place in Islam ("Turn then thy face towards the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces towards it .... " The Quran, Al-Baqarah, 2:149).

    That's where the trouble comes in. From ISS, orbiting 220 miles above the surface of the Earth, the qibla (an Arabic word meaning the direction a Muslim should pray toward Mecca) changes from second to second. During some parts of the space station's orbit, the qibla can move nearly 180 degrees during the course of a single prayer. What's a devout Muslim to do?

    "As a Muslim, I do hope to do my responsibilities," Shukor says. "I do hope to fast in space." Malaysia's space agency, Angkasa, convened a conference of 150 Islamic scientists and scholars last year to wrestle with these and other questions. The resulting document (.doc), "A Guideline of Performing Ibadah (worship) at the International Space Station (ISS)", was approved by Malaysia's National Fatwa Council earlier this year. According to the report, determining the qibla should be "based on what is possible" for the astronaut, and can be prioritized this way: 1) the Ka'aba, 2) the projection of Ka'aba, 3) the Earth, 4) wherever.

    This leads to Shukor's second problem. There are two distinct schools of thought for determining the qibla: the commonly used Great Circle method, and the less common rhumb-line method. Looking at a flat map using any standard projection shows that a rhumb line (a line that cuts equal angles across all lines of longitude) drawn from, say, the Johnson Space Center in Houston to Mecca runs east-southeast. The numbers also bear this out -- the space center is to the north and west of the Ka'aba, so any travel to the holy city should naturally be to the southeast.

    Lay a string across a globe, however, and everything changes. A great circle -- the shortest distance between two points on a sphere -- between Houston and Mecca initially arcs to the northeast, then curves southward to the Saudi peninsula. Islamic scientists knew as early as the ninth century CE that the great circle route provided the shortest path to Mecca from anywhere in the world, even though it may in some places seem counterintuitive (Muslims in Alaska, for example, pray facing almost due north). Great circle formulae are at the root of nearly every online qibla compass.

    Dr. Kamal Abdali, a cartographer who is also Muslim and who has written (.pdf) extensively on determining the qibla, favors the great circle route, but adds, "Prayer is not supposed to be a gymnastic exercise. One is supposed to concentrate on the prayer rather the exact orientation." He points out that in a train or plane, it's customary to start in the qibla direction but then continue the prayer without worrying about possible changes in position.

    But how does that work in space? Mathematically, Shukor would need to place both ISS and Mecca on the same imaginary sphere -- by either comparing the place on Earth directly beneath ISS with the real Ka'aba, or by projecting the Ka'aba into space (the option recommended by the Fatwa Council).

    Yet the option to pray while facing a point in space brings up another problem. Muslims face the ground to pray, in part to avoid any hint of pagan sun or moon worship ("Prostrate yourselves not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate yourselves to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him" (The Quran, Fussilat 41:37). If the Ka'aba projection happens to line up with the sun or moon, purists might believe the prayer invalid.

    For now, Shukor is keeping the details of his plans fluid until he is actually on board ISS, a point with which Dr. Khaleel Mohammed, assistant professor of religion at San Diego State University, concurs. "In space," Mohammed points out, "the ritual prayer might be offset for more of a prayer that is allowed when on jihad ... for the lack of gravity and directional accuracy makes it legitimate to do as one sees fit. God does not take a person to task for that which is beyond his/her ability to work with."

    Questions like these will continue as more and more religious astronauts travel into space. When is sunset in low Earth orbit if you're experiencing a dozen sunrises and sunsets in every 24-hour period? When does Sabbath begin on the moon, where the sun sets once a month? When is the first sighting of the crescent moon if you're on Mars? Religious councils of all faiths will have plenty to keep them busy for years.

    ------


    source


    What a joke. The money could have well spent on some other useful things, instead of funding a space tourist, and they were more concerned with how to pray and fast in space. Ugh, stop embarrassing yourself Malaysia.  Roll Eyes

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #62 - October 02, 2010, 04:08 AM


    There is a difference between dua (supplication) and prayer. They are both purely acts of worship, unlike other actions like transactions (mu'amalaat), and manners (akhlaaq). The Creator defines how these purely acts of worship are to be done since they are done solely for him and do not involve anyone else. If you are looking for logic or purpose in it, then it is to please the Creator in the manner He wishes for Himself.


    The article is talking about prayer though, not dua.

    Islam means submission, meaning we realize there is a Creator and it is only rational to submit to Him.


    Why is that so? Even if I know for sure that there is a creator, I still won't ever submit to him, because as far as I'm concerned, this world is shit!

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #63 - October 02, 2010, 04:26 AM

    What a joke. The money could have well spent on some other useful things, instead of funding a space tourist, and they were more concerned with how to pray and fast in space. Ugh, stop embarrassing yourself Malaysia.  Roll Eyes

     thank god the first astronauts weren't putting their energy towards this or else we wouldn't have tang or a microwave

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #64 - October 02, 2010, 07:14 AM

    I'm not a Muslim so I really wouldn't care. My first guess as to the reason why Muhammad thought directional prayer was important would be because it is some thing that is easily observed by others. My second guess would be because the Kaaba was an idol already worshipped by many people in the area at that time. Just as Jerusalem had become and still is as an idol to many people. So both were good targets.

    IF I was Muslim trying to defend this practise I would sure as anything picked up on Dr. Kamal Abdali point that prayer is not supposed to be a gymnastic exercise however a person is supposed to concentrate on the prayer rather the exact orientation. This is because God who is in Heaven hears prayers not the Kaaba. So there is no need to worry about the prayers traveling to the Kaaba!!!! Then I'd  mumble some holy reminder thing about facing the Kaaba. SO ALL THE CUTE PICTURES JUST PROVE THE PRAYERS GO TO HEAVEN. RIGHT, ISN'T THAT WHAT THEY SHOW? DOESN'T PROVE THE EARTH IS FLAT.

    BUT I'M NOT A MUSLIM. So where are the Muslims who post here? Where are thier reasonable arguements? That's all I'm asking.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #65 - October 02, 2010, 07:29 AM

    ALL THE CUTE PICTURES JUST PROVE THE PRAYERS GO TO HEAVEN. RIGHT, ISN'T THAT WHAT THEY SHOW? DOESN'T PROVE THE EARTH IS FLAT.


    So where is heaven then Lynna? Up? The "up" of people who live in the south pole is the "down" of people who live on the north pole.  Huh?


    ...
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #66 - October 02, 2010, 07:39 AM

    Cheesy

    It would be nice to hear you Lynna, when you have the time! Also tell us how did God revealed to Christians that the earth is not flat!  Afro



    I have just a little bit of time.

    Isaiah 40:22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,

    Circle of the earth: A little bit poetic but take a look at how one reference work says the original language could be translated.
    The original-language word translated “circle” at Isaiah 40:22 may also be rendered “sphere.” Certain Bible translations read, “the globe of the earth” (Douay Version) and “the round earth.”—Moffatt.


    Stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze: Also a bit poetic however not a bad way to discribe an expanding universe. Couldn't find the reference i was looking for on short notice but if your interested I'll get it for you.

    From the Book of Isaiah written about 2,700 years ago.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #67 - October 02, 2010, 07:44 AM

    This one one will have to wait.  mysmilie_977

    I've been up past my 20 hour limit and still have to drive home.

    Until next time. bunny parrot bunny parrot

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #68 - October 02, 2010, 07:45 AM


    Isaiah 40:22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.....




    This:

    So where is heaven then Lynna? Up? The "up" of people who live in the south pole is the "down" of people who live on the north pole.  Huh?


    ...
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #69 - October 03, 2010, 05:42 AM

    Above as opposed to on the earth.

    Do you feel a need to argue about which is up and which is down the north or the south compared to the over all orientation of the galaxy?

    "Up" is not really part of the directions unless you are using it in the sense of "not on".

    From what humans are told about the Heaven where God resides it is at a location where the earth is visible as a sphere and is also a location to which physical creatures can not travel.

    Did you forget that you asked the following question.  Huh?

    Cheesy

    It would be nice to hear you Lynna, when you have the time! Also tell us how did God revealed to Christians that the earth is not flat!  Afro


    Hummm....

    You don't want to talk about the fact that the Bible revealed approximately 2,700 years ago that the earth is a sphere and that the universe is expanding.

    Funny thing RIBS, that in stead you want to argue up and down in the over all orienation of the earth in space. 

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #70 - October 03, 2010, 06:01 AM

    Truthseeker,

    If you would please check your September 28th post :

    Distance is the issue actually. It is shortest distance along the surface of the earth.


    Why is distance an issue?

    I would be very glad to find out that there has been some kind of misunderstanding.

    It was my thought that you were stating that distance is the issue because the prayers needed to reach the Kaaba like RIBS was impling.

    Why did you even have any need to make the above statement?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #71 - October 25, 2010, 11:56 PM

    Earlier thread: ?topic=11373.0

    As I said in my OP, the Kabba direction thingy can only work if the earth is flat!

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Because on the round earth model, there must be a place that is in the exact opposite (antipodal) of Mecca, so which direction should the prayee face? Thinking hard

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Tematangi Atoll is the antipode of Mecca.

    Apparently, Muslims can pray in any direction they like from there.


    The reality is that prayer is man made ritual and as such people can simple invent rationalizations to make it work.  It should be enough to point out that the prayer is predicated on a flat earth model, and later Muslims rationalized methods to overcome this inaccuracy. I doubt anyone will be able to wholly prove in a Muslim's mind that they aren't praying to mecca, but is possible to show them the reality of their situation.

    I can make a bullshit response to this:-


    When you pray, your face goes in every angle from straight forwards to directly down, therefor at one point you are facing mecca.

    I make a better muslim than muslims do,lolz

    http://moonsighting.com/qibla.html

     whistling2

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Prayer direction and flat earth!
     Reply #72 - October 29, 2010, 01:42 PM

    allah is supposed to hear everything even thoughts , so mecca has nothing to do with listening

    the best answer people come up with is that , pre-islamic traditions and rituals are mixed with islam ,

    nothing is written in quran that explains prayer or hajj in detail , it's just says that mecca is very importans and holy and .....

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