Okay, yet another miracle claim accepted as false.
"How would Muhammad know there are 7 layers of the Earth's atmosphere? We only NOW know, the sky has 7 layers."
1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Mesosphere
4. Thermosphere
5. Exosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Magnetosphere
This took 2 replies for the penny to drop.
1: "Seven" was considered a mystical number, it was used a lot in the Quran
http://www.answering-christianity.com/cgi-bin/quran/quran_search.cgi?search_text=seven&search_type=Exact+String&B1=SearchAlso look at how often 7 is used in the bible....
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=seven&qs_version=NIVEverything was 7 in the past, I have no idea why
2: I have heard that "Seven" was also used to mean "Several", although that's just something to consider looking into because I have never bothered to check it. It was a claim made by Maurice Bucaille in one of his books.
Although the Quran says
65:12 Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number
If taken literally it means we should never find more than 6 "earth like" planets. But this is evidently not the case
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/07/26/keplers-early-results-suggest-earth-like-planets-are-dime-a-dozen/Which is exactly the point where someone like Bucaille will say "But 7 used to mean SEVERAL"
3: The problem with counting the number of layers of atmosphere on the Earth is that the result depends on how you classify a layer. For example I just googled
"how many layers does earth's atmosphere have"
The first page (
http://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Atmosphere/layers_activity_print.html) says there are 5 layers.
The second page (
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_layers_does_a_atmosphere_have) says there are 4 layers.
The third by Wikipedia (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth#Principal_layers) corroborates the claim for 5 layers.
Exosphere
Thermosphere
Mesosphere
Stratosphere
Troposphere
If you look at your list there are 2 "layers" missing from this list, the Ionosphere and the Magnetosphere.
Further down on that Wiki page you will see "Other layers", this explains that the Ionosphere isn't a distinct layer like the others, it is a region of both the exosphere and thermosphere which happens to react to solar radiation in a particular way. So you see, Ionosphere is not a distinct layer at all, it is just a range of 2 other layers which acts in a common way.
As for Magnetosphere that is not a layer of Earth's atmosphere. It is the magnetic field around the Earth which starts within the Earth and stretches out into space far beyond our planet's atmosphere. So this layer actually encompasses all of the layers, it's not a layer itself, it is a range covering both atmospheric layers and vacuum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetosphere4: However with this abundance of information about why this claim is simply made up I must confess that I have been leading you along a little, the Quran itself disproves this claim. I will get to that next, but I first wanted to share with you the different ways I looked for information when deciding whether or not this was a genuine claim.
The Quran verses are...
41:12 And We adorned the lower heaven with lights
67:5 And We have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones
71:15 See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another
71:16 And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a Lamp?
The *lowest* heaven is adorned with stars. This shows the miracle claim is wrong because it would mean that the furthest stars are 56,000 ft away (see Troposphere on that wiki page, the Troposphere is the lowest layer -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth#Principal_layers)
It also says that the Sun and Moon are within the lowest heaven, which also shows this miracle claim is wrong. The "lowest heaven" is presumably supposed to mean "the visible universe".
So as you see, according to the Quran itself this claim cannot possibly be true. What do you think?
and then after his reply that he was not yet convinced here was my second reply
>HOWEVER, saying seven "could" mean SEVERAL is just trying to put doubt in something
Actually I am pleased you think that way because it makes life easier for me
My point wasn't that *I* think it means several but that apologists will claim it means several in the cases where there aren't exactly seven. I just wanted to point this out so that we can decide now whether it means "several" or "literally seven".
>Yes, even given the fact there are many occurrences of the number 7, it doesn't prove these statements are false right?
No, but remember the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. My point is that in the past the number 7 was used a lot for "mystical" things. Now if Muhammad had been the first person to do this it would be different, but he wasn't. Anyone at the time would have thought that the number 7 was mystical, so it's no surprise someone would say there are 7 heavens because 7 was considered to be such a mystical number.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_(number)#Religion>I love how the EXACT translation you chose to pick "coincidentally" just happens to be in favour of your argument!
I was not biased at all. I use Quran explorer. I often use Pickthall becuase that is the default, but I try to remember to use Yusuf Ali, which I did in this case.
>- It is Allâh Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven)
>- Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof
Note that the first one you quoted says "(i.e. seven)" - so two of the 3 verses corroborate that it means "there are the same number of Earths".
>Therefore, I can conclude with confidence, this verse, when it says "heaven/firmament" it is not referring to planets.
My argument was that the quran says there are 7 "heavens" *and* an equal number of Earths - yet we have already classified over 100 planets we call "Earth like planets". If we investigate these further and discover more than 6 have oxygen + life would this mean that you accept the Quran is incorrect? We have already established that "7" does not mean "several"
>Though it seems there are only 4 layers in the atmosphere you are correct.
There are claims for 4 and 5. Although 5 looks more credible.
>None of us are claiming that this verse is referring to LAYERS in the sky
That's exactly what this miracle claim is arguing. To quote you
>>
We only NOW know, the sky has 7 layers.
1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Mesosphere
4. Thermosphere
5. Exosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Magnetosphere
How would Muhammad (Pbuh), know 1400 years ago that the sky consisted of 7 layers?
<<
So are you now saying you don't think it describes 7 layers in this list? If that is the case then have we agreed this is not a miracle due to its inaccuracy?
>I must argue that in NO TRANSLATION does the verse say "......created seven LAYERS"
It does seem like we are in agreement that these verses do not describe atmospheric layers of the Earth. I've always taken these to mean "7 heavens" in the same respect that some Christians believe in "7 layers of hell" - especially as the lowest heaven has stars in it.
>Yes I know, not very convincing
Again I must as the question. Would a perfect + all powerful being create "not very convincing" miracles?
>Also on a side note, you mentioned 4 verses:
41:12, 67:5, 71:15, 71:16. I must warn you these are all from DIFFERENT chapters, each with DIFFERENT contexts.
You are the one making a claim here, please tell me what the different contexts are, how you know what they are, and how these different contexts mean one of the following
A: Atmospheric layers of the Earth
B: Different extra-terrestrial heavens that we have not yet observed.
Without the evidence for your claim it will look as though you are being biased in what information you use.
I found a great site this morning whilst looking this stuff up
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=65&verse=12It shows a word for word translation of the Quran. Importantly you can click each word and find everywhere else it is used. The word in 65:12 is Samaawaati - here is where else it occurrs
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=smw#(65:12:5)
2:33,107,116,117,164 "What is in the heavens AND the Earth"
The miracle claim is wrong, because if it were accurate "the heavens" (Samaawaati) would already include "the Earth" and therefore "AND the Earth" is a repetition.
64:4 "He knows what is in the heavens and on earth"
It obviously means "supernatural heavens" because Allah is supposed to know everything that happens everywhere. If Samaawaati meant "Earth's atmosphere" then Allah is essentially saying "I know everything what is in the Earth" rather than "I know everything in the universe + heaven"
There are lots more verses too. Here's another
78:37 "Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all between"
You wouldn't be "between" the layers of the Earth's atmosphere, you'd be "in" them. Also I am pretty sure Allah is supposed to be the lord of Earth + heaven, not just Earth + it's atmosphere.
63:7 "But to Allah belong the treasures of the heavens and the earth"
So only the treasures of the Earth + its atmosphere belong to Allah, or all treasures in heaven and Earth?
62:1 "Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare the Praises and Glory of Allah"
This is obviously talking about heaven with angels in it which also supposedly sing the praises of Allah.
All the same word "Samaawaati"!
I hope I am making my case that the word used obviously means "heaven" and not "layers of sky"? If there is an objective way of showing that the same word means different things in these verses then I'd like you to tell me what it is so that I can learn something new. E.g.
A: I am going to play with my friends
B: I am going to be in a play
The objective proof here is "play with" Vs "in".
By the way, if it is any consolation I found that many Christians make up lies too. Not only do some lie to make up miracles in the bible but they also lie about the Quran. I think that Islam is probably the most lied about religion there is, but unfortunately it is both sides that are doing the lying.
That's why I find it interesting. The miracle claims initially attracted me to Islam because I thought "Yes, that's exactly what I'd expect God to do *IF* he had a religious book". Working out which parts of both sides of the argument are deception is fun, and you get to learn a lot about the universe in the process so it's very educational too
>Chapter 75, verses 3-4
I'd like to discuss this one, especially because I have a personal story from my childhood which relates to it
But I'd like to reach a conclusion on the current claim first, or are we already in agreement that this is not a miracle?
Summary
1: The Earth does not have 7 atmospheric layers.
2: The Quran says that the lowest heaven has stars in it, unless you can demonstrate why the same word (Samaa) means different things.
3: The exact form of the word (Samaawaati) is describing the heaven with angels in it and not the Earth's atmosphere, as per the verses I listed.
4: Seven was used for most mystical things, so it is no surprise that someone would use that number. This alone removes any notion of the sentence being miraculous.
I like this guy, he accepts facts when I present them to him. We've now moved onto "The miracle of finger prints", I wonder how he will respond to this one I wrote to him this morning...
When I was in junior school (about 7 or 8 years old) I remember being bored in my morning assembly. At some point I found myself pondering the pretty swirling lines on my finger tips, I looked at how complicated they were and how close together. I said to the person next to me "Have you ever seen how complicated the lines on your fingers are?"...to which he replied "No" and then continued to listen to the assembly
When I got home I said the same thing to my mom, I genuinely thought I was the first person to ever spot these complicated lines and expected my mom to say "Wow, I have never seen those before" but instead she said "Yes, I have noticed, but did you know that everyone has different patterns, yours are different from mine, there is nobody else in the world with patterns the same as yours." - She also told me to look at the detailed patterns on my hands.
I think this story of my childhood (which I love to tell by the way) shows 2 things.
1: Even a 7 year old child can look at their finger tips and see that they are complicated.
2: Knowing that information is not the same thing as knowing that these patterns are unique.
So my thoughts on this claim are
1: The impressive fact about finger tips is that their patterns are UNIQUE, not that they are complicated. The Quran does not say they are unique so it does not mention the impressive thing about finger tips at all.
What people have done in this case is taken the phrase "the tips of your fingers" and said "it mentions finger PRINTS" when in fact it merely mentions finger TIPS, knowing that people will infer the fact that finger prints are unique because we use finger PRINTS in crime analysis due to their uniqueness. The Quran clearly does not mention this fact at all.
2: It's not only finger prints that are unique. Your hand prints are, your footprints are, your toe prints are, and the patterns in your retina too. The Quran could have mentioned any of the extremities of your body and these people could have claimed it was a miracle of the same calibre (i.e. a poor one). The only reason we in society talk about finger PRINTS is because this is what you pick things up with, and when a thief does this they leave behind prints of their patterns.
"Friction ridge skin present on the soles of the feet and toes (plantar surfaces) is as unique as ridge detail on the fingers and palms (palmar surfaces). When recovered at crime scenes or on items of evidence, sole and toe impressions are used in the same manner as finger and palm prints to effect identifications"
Source -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint#Footprints3: The fact that the fingers are both an extremity of your body AND a small part of your body makes them a prime example when saying "Allah can recreate your WHOLE body, even to the tips of your fingers" - it merely means "He can recreate every little bit"
4: If you google "History of fingerprints" there are many examples of civilisations who realised finger PRINTS were unique well before Muhammad was born.
"Pre historic : Picture writing of a hand with ridge patterns was discovered in Nova Scotia. In ancient Babylon, fingerprints were used on clay tablets for business transactions. In ancient China, thumb prints were found on clay seals."
Source -
http://www.onin.com/fp/fphistory.htmlSo next I searched Wikipedia for "fingerprints"
"In Babylon from 1885-1913 B.C.E., in order to protect against forgery, parties to a legal contract impressed their fingerprints into the clay tablet on which the contract had been written. By 246 B.C.E., Chinese officials impressed their fingerprints in clay seals, which were used to seal documents. With the advent of silk and paper in China, parties to a legal contract impressed their handprints on the document."
Source -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint#History_of_fingerprinting_for_identificationSo as you see the uniqueness of fingerprints was known about and utilised over 2000 years before Muhammad was even born. The Quran only mentions the "tips" of the fingers and not the uniqueness of them, and I myself as a 7 or 8 year old spotted the intricacy of the lines on the ends of my fingers.
This miracle claim is a desperate attempt to get people to see miracles where they are not. It's a *perfect* example of an argument from ignorance
"I don't know how Muhammad could have known X, THEREFORE god must have told him"
Ignorance is not something people should make decisions based on, except the decision to educate one's self on a subject of course :-)
I hope he continues his trend of accepting reason
Topic: Miracle: Iron is sent down