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Theme Changer

 Topic: Does Atheism Poison Everything?

 (Read 14081 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     OP - September 20, 2010, 07:01 PM

    A debate on atheism with Christopher Hitchens, author of God Is Not Great, and David Berlinski, author of The Devil's Delusion. This event was hosted by the Fixed Point Foundation (fixed-point.org) in Birmingham, Alabama, Sept 7, 2010.

    Full hour long debate: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/232872

    Hitchens highlights:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlvXT747-x4

    001_wub


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #1 - September 20, 2010, 07:13 PM

    poor hitchens i hope he gets well soon ... probably unlikely in this era but i really respect that guy .... is this the first apperance after the chemo??

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #2 - September 20, 2010, 07:21 PM

    Wait, Hitchens is still doing debates? Fuck yeah. Thanks for posting this, I'll be watching it later.   Afro

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #3 - September 20, 2010, 07:28 PM

    is this the first apperance after the chemo??

    I'm not sure if that's his first actual debate since, but he's done some interviews.

    Here is one with Anderson Cooper on CNN, 5/8/2010:

    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6XncYCZTc4

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZQrvpAcGtM



    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #4 - September 20, 2010, 07:37 PM

    ..
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #5 - September 20, 2010, 07:39 PM

    Loser cancer patients, hugging you all the time saying "I love you", loser cancer patients driving their wheelchairs across Canada.

    Fuckin bald-headed freak.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #6 - September 20, 2010, 08:04 PM

    ok so i cant understand a word from u sa3eed lol ... i know its my own ignorance ...

    but damn

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #7 - September 20, 2010, 08:07 PM

    Wait, Hitchens is still doing debates? Fuck yeah. Thanks for posting this,

    +1  Afro


    I wish the Hitch well.

    +1


    I'm feeling lazy today. Tongue

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #8 - September 20, 2010, 08:45 PM

    This is a silly debate - basically it comes down to what has caused more pain, atheism or religion and that is a ridiculous discussion to have.
    It's so easy for Hitchens to make fun of traditional, orthodox religion and it's so easy for Berlinski to point out the obvious shortcomings of science - when will these people actually get serious and discuss the idea of god that is neither orthodoxly religious nor religiously analytic?

    But then I guess that kind of soul-searching enterprise won't sell millions of books and certainly isn't conducive to pop-debates that have about as much relevance to the understanding of mankind as an x-factor audition.

    It is saddening to see Hitchens call Spinoza the greatest jew that ever lived and yet so tragically misunderstand him. Spinoza had no religion and yet was one of the most religious men that ever lived - so much so that he was labelled "the god-intoxicated". Why not grapple with the religion of Spinoza?

    It is also saddening to see Hitchens delight in the idea that the Earth is but a speck of dust amongst the vastness of the cosmos and that the idea that humans have a special place in this vastness is mere infantile fantasy. Why not then quote Giordano Bruno, a man burnt at the stake by the catholic church in 1600, for being the first recorded man in history to hold the idea that the cosmos is "acentric". Bruno, rightly, is the true father of the renaissance spirit and yet, he presents a problem for the neat and tidy lines of Hitchens because Bruno, just like Spinoza, was an incredibly religious man - he was so religious that he left the catholic church and searched for God alone. why not grapple with the religion of Bruno, Mr. Hitchens, if you really are serious about discussing religion and finding the answers to life?

    It is further saddening to see that Hitchens readily provides the example of Socrates and yet forgets to add that all we know of Socrates is through the words of Plato and that both Plato and Socrates were profoundly religious mystics? Why not try and understand their version of religion for once, Mr. Hitchens? Why keep your artillery loaded for the easy and frankly, obvious targets and yet avoid discussing the real religious tradition that knows no childish boundaries of race or "creed"?

    Yes, why not? Why is it that those who are truly religious, the mystics and the poets and the real philosophers are always ignored?



    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #9 - September 20, 2010, 08:57 PM

    Hitchens enjoys what he does, and gets paid for it too. People enjoy these 'silly' debates, me included. Nobody is obliged to be an audience member.

    I am interested in other things too, however. And if there are subjects you are interested in, topics you'd rather discuss, debates you'd rather bring to light - post them.




    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #10 - September 20, 2010, 09:01 PM

    I apologise Ishina, I didn't mean any personal offense to your taste of subject.  Smiley

    Rather, I think it is just unfortunate that a debate has been conducted on religion but the truly religious have been omitted.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #11 - September 20, 2010, 09:07 PM

    None taken. It was more of a hint really, for you to post some higher calibre debates, if you have the time. I'd be interested.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #12 - September 20, 2010, 09:24 PM

    Unfortunately, I know of no such debate. For some reason our public intellectuals charged with the responsibility of presenting intellectually honest opinions find that the god and religious though of orthodox dogmatists, fundamentalists and so on deserve all of our air time and the religious thought and god of a plato or spinoza deserve none of our attention.

    Though, if you really are interested in finding out more about perennial religious thought, I can recommend some books?  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #13 - September 20, 2010, 09:26 PM

    This is a silly debate - basically it comes down to what has caused more pain, atheism or religion and that is a ridiculous discussion to have.
    It's so easy for Hitchens to make fun of traditional, orthodox religion and it's so easy for Berlinski to point out the obvious shortcomings of science - when will these people actually get serious and discuss the idea of god that is neither orthodoxly religious nor religiously analytic?

    But then I guess that kind of soul-searching enterprise won't sell millions of books and certainly isn't conducive to pop-debates that have about as much relevance to the understanding of mankind as an x-factor audition.

    It is saddening to see Hitchens call Spinoza the greatest jew that ever lived and yet so tragically misunderstand him. Spinoza had no religion and yet was one of the most religious men that ever lived - so much so that he was labelled "the god-intoxicated". Why not grapple with the religion of Spinoza?

    It is also saddening to see Hitchens delight in the idea that the Earth is but a speck of dust amongst the vastness of the cosmos and that the idea that humans have a special place in this vastness is mere infantile fantasy. Why not then quote Giordano Bruno, a man burnt at the stake by the catholic church in 1600, for being the first recorded man in history to hold the idea that the cosmos is "acentric". Bruno, rightly, is the true father of the renaissance spirit and yet, he presents a problem for the neat and tidy lines of Hitchens because Bruno, just like Spinoza, was an incredibly religious man - he was so religious that he left the catholic church and searched for God alone. why not grapple with the religion of Bruno, Mr. Hitchens, if you really are serious about discussing religion and finding the answers to life?

    It is further saddening to see that Hitchens readily provides the example of Socrates and yet forgets to add that all we know of Socrates is through the words of Plato and that both Plato and Socrates were profoundly religious mystics? Why not try and understand their version of religion for once, Mr. Hitchens? Why keep your artillery loaded for the easy and frankly, obvious targets and yet avoid discussing the real religious tradition that knows no childish boundaries of race or "creed"?

    Yes, why not? Why is it that those who are truly religious, the mystics and the poets and the real philosophers are always ignored?





    because apolitical, philosophical and strictly personal ideas of religion do not need a public rebuttal. any time religious ideas start impinging on the social / political / moral structures of society they need to be publicly examined and discredited.

    most of the public atheist thinkers are physicalist empiricists anyway.
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #14 - September 20, 2010, 09:45 PM

    So, s12, am I to understand that the whole idea of public discussion is only supposed to be about rebuttals? That the public doesn't deserve to hear ideas that are only philosophical?

    Is the public intellectual's job only about discrediting ideas? Are they never to educate us on the profound and the enlightening of the best minds of mankind?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #15 - September 20, 2010, 09:50 PM

    Cheesy the average human doesn't have the grey cells for that. those who do read up on their own  Afro
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #16 - September 20, 2010, 09:51 PM

    .
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #17 - September 20, 2010, 10:00 PM

    I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion on Spinoza and especially Bruno, my friend.

    However, first we must agree on what we mean by religion and then perhaps we can move this discussion forward. To my mind, a religious doctrine is one that includes a sense of divinity, whether immanent or transcendent. Acts of worship, praise, prayer and so on are superfluous to the core idea of religion and religious experience.

    Spinoza always thought of nature/ god as divine. To me, this is exactly what a religious attitude towards nature would entail. Bruno, in fact, even more than Spinoza, was a profoundly religious man and I'm surprised that you would say anything else about him. He was a spiritual alchemist, a man interested in nothing but acheiving mystical union with God, the greatest of all religious experiences and the goal of every mystic that ever lived. If that is not a religious attitude to life, then I am afraid to say I don't know what else would be.

    It is true that neither of these two believed in a classical personal god, but then I never stated they did. The truly religious, from every corner of the earth, never have a personal idea of god, whether it is Spinoza or Bruno or even Rumi or the original Buddha.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #18 - September 20, 2010, 10:19 PM

    .
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #19 - September 20, 2010, 10:30 PM

     A thousand times one hears the merchants of clerical orthodoxy misleadingly claiming freethinkers for their cause. Let us ditch the loaded word.



    You are right, and it is unfortunate that the word has been so demeaned by such thievery. However, ditch the word but don't ditch the sentiment.
    We do not have to call it religious experience, we can call it mystical experience instead, but the central idea does not change and that idea deserves as much of our attention (and even more) as the orthodox religions. It is no good discussing the idea of God and then leaving out the most profound conceptions of God even if those conceptions may not have the "religion" label but the "mystic" label instead.
    On the whole, though, I think we are in agreement.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #20 - September 20, 2010, 10:41 PM

    Nothing I've written incidentally should be misconstrued as uncritical support for Hitchens, about whom I have my own misgivings.

    popcorn

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #21 - September 20, 2010, 10:52 PM

    ..
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #22 - September 20, 2010, 11:02 PM

    .
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #23 - September 21, 2010, 12:48 AM


    I have lingering doubts about the import to which you attach Spinoza's mysticism though, for I'm of the conviction that his pantheism was only the best such a mind as his could manage in his age, scientific advances being what they were. Like the deism of later thinkers, his mysticism was the ne plus ultra  of philosophical understanding in his day. I'm persuaded that Spinoza, living, would have cast off the imbecility of supernaturalism completely. But I'm a partisan. I invite your thoughts.



    Perhaps Spinoza himself may well have cast off his mystical thoughts, or perhaps he would have given them a different emphasis - ala Jung who is a contemporary intellectual giant that is thoroughly enmeshed within the mystical tradition.
    For my part, I think the import lies not with the individual practitioners or thinkers but with the mystical tradition itself. This tradition is both timeless and displaced, there is no one definitive starting point and so no one definitive state of doctrines or rules. There is only one idea and this idea fuels the entire purpose of its practitioners - the overwhelming, unending, desire to achieve union with "god" and to swim in that infinite absolute as an unrecognisable drop amongst the ocean.
    Now, there are many caveats to this tradition. I think it cannot be dismissed with as much arrogant glee as orthodox religion because the tradition does not attempt to rationally prove itself - it rather sidesteps the entire rational system and proclaims that the absolute, transcendent reality can only be experienced and not logically known. Furthermore, the mystic states that there is not but one path to this enlightened inner realm but an infinite many, and every holistic subject (you and me) must undertake their own such journey for themselves. There are certain archetypal features of such an undertaking, as Jung has pointed out in his study of spiritual alchemy and the collective unconscious but these are only broad motifs and do not all apply to every individual.
    Can it be that such an experience exists and can it tell us anything about the world?
    I think the answer to the first question is a definite yes. Whether or not this experience is of anything real, it cannot be doubted that many around the world from all ages have felt the ineffable and the transcendent. One can list countless hermetics, gnostics, sufis, yogis and so on who have at one time or another claimed to have experienced the mystical. The experience itself is a reality, what the experience has to tell us about the cosmos is the second question.
    To this I cannot give anything but an agnostic answer. How is one to know what a mystical and spiritual alchemy entails unless one undergoes it oneself? How can we know what is meant by the "enlightenment" that is so madly desired by the mystics of all ages? I think to answer this question, you have to experience it for yourself because it cannot be brought into collective, social scrutiny - it can only be discovered for yourself. As Plato would have it, only you yourself can escape the cave and reach the mystical pinnacle of truth and beauty and wisdom.

    I do not know how much truth there is in these ideas, I am merely standing at the doorstep and asking that whatever is behind that door be given a fair hearing and not dismissed out of hand just because those that have stepped through here have called themselves "religious" and/ or "mystical".

     

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #24 - September 21, 2010, 02:12 AM

    While these debates have the word god, theology, religion etc. mentioned in them, the are wholly about political power.  One side simply utilities the words god etc as intertwined with theit version of authoritarian political power. If there were to be a debate in North Korea over the current regime and another liberal social contract you would find the Jung Il family spoken of in the same terms as God.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #25 - September 21, 2010, 02:47 AM

    .
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #26 - September 21, 2010, 03:14 AM

    .
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #27 - September 21, 2010, 04:40 AM

    i shudder to think that you were once a salafi MAB  Smiley
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #28 - September 21, 2010, 09:47 AM

    .
  • Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
     Reply #29 - September 21, 2010, 10:51 AM

    Uh-huh. Is that so? Picture the scene: A fiercely bearded MAB cloaked in flowing white robe with a black turban bandaged on his head and miswaak dangling from his lips. There he stands my sweet, furiously scraping his head on the floor with firm buttocks reared majestically to the blue sky, part yokel, part fanatic, bestraddling the globe like a Salafi colossus.

    For the incriminating pictures drop me a PM enclosed with your number, your address and what time you're away from home.


    Thats some picture you've painted there.
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