Does Atheism Poison Everything?

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #30 - September 21, 2010, 12:17 PM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #31 - September 24, 2010, 01:30 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 21, 2010, 02:47 AM
If explorers of the mystic tradition cannot clothe their glimmers of insight into the frontiers of human consciousness in language acessible to all, by what method does one distinguish the valuable insight from the mundane? By what process do we safeguard against human error, against neurosis, against downright folly? You seem to hint that in so deeply subjective an enterprise one cannot hope to intrude the tools of the scientific method of independent verification. If so, we have no filtering sytem, no mode of quality control by which to arrive at objective truth and weed out the charlatan from the true pioneer, the quack from the genuine scientific explorer. From the very beginning of our search for enlightenment our endeavour is prematurely doomed: If men imagine that every nuerotic thought which careens into their consciousness is a revelation from The Beyond, we drive lunacy to escape velocity.

Are you suggesting that there is no truth to be unearthed outside of the scientific enterprise? Are all metaphysical questions to be reduced to empirical questions?

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #32 - September 24, 2010, 01:32 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 20, 2010, 11:02 PM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #33 - September 24, 2010, 01:50 AM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #34 - September 24, 2010, 02:03 AM

I will take a look at the video MAB. Thanks

I think the basic idea that I am going for is that there are mysteries of this cosmos that cannot be divorced from our fundamental subjectivity, we cannot acheive an archimedian scientific perspective on everything and there must be a different way of exploring these mysteries. Many mystics have proclaimed to have fulfilled this task of questing for these transcendental mysteries and I feel it would be improper to dismiss their claims without first attempting their methods.

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #35 - September 24, 2010, 02:23 AM

The whole metaphysics thing just seems to me like superstition with a PhD.

Bruno was a smart guy for his time..he still knew less about the universe than my 10 year old cousin. Same with plato..if he appeared in new york today (a la bill and ted) he would seem like a nut.

Ya, they were mystics...they were also people from a time of amazing ignorance and barbarity. Sure I respect them in a relative way, but as an appeal to authority it falls rather short. Hell, plato also said that it was good to lie to the people about the gods, so they would be more servile and not afraid to die in battle.

So I guess the whole name dropping long dead philosophers always seems to go nowhere.

If you want to advocate for the religion of plato..ok, present the case for it. But just saying, Plato believed in stuff like that, isn't much of an argument...for anything.

Hay, I'm back

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #36 - September 24, 2010, 02:27 AM

Quote from: Homer on September 24, 2010, 02:23 AM
Hay, I'm back, bitches!

Fixed.

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #37 - September 24, 2010, 02:38 AM

Quote from: Homer on September 24, 2010, 02:23 AM

Ya, they were mystics...they were also people from a time of amazing ignorance and barbarity. Sure I respect them in a relative way, but as an appeal to authority it falls rather short. Hell, plato also said that it was good to lie to the people about the gods, so they would be more servile and not afraid to die in battle.

My friend, this is no real argument against the thought of Plato. He was human and he made errors, we all do, but is that really a reason to reject everything he says?

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So I guess the whole name dropping long dead philosophers always seems to go nowhere.

If you want to advocate for the religion of plato..ok, present the case for it. But just saying, Plato believed in stuff like that, isn't much of an argument...for anything.

Hay, I'm back

I think we have a misunderstanding here. I am not advocating for the religion of Plato, nor do I agree with everything he said. Rather, I am saying that in a discussion on religion, all varieties of religion and religious experience should be considered and not just the easy targets of orthodox faith.
Besides, I do not think it is possible to present a case for mysticism as I have stated above. It stands and falls on subjective experience, there is no objective method of testing it.

I apologise if you felt I was just name dropping, that is not my intention and it is good to see you back.

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #38 - September 24, 2010, 03:12 AM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #39 - September 24, 2010, 03:17 AM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #40 - September 24, 2010, 04:21 AM

hay, its been over a month...I got a lot of strident built up

Quote from: z10 on September 24, 2010, 02:38 AM

Rather, I am saying that in a discussion on religion, all varieties of religion and religious experience should be considered and not just the easy targets of orthodox faith.

Well you could, but that would take forever, there are infinite definitions of religion and religious experience, including ones that have not been thought of yet, someone probably just invented one right now, so you cant address them all. That is why orthodox religion is addressed more often in any kind of public discussion. It is the most significant.
and also because:
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Besides, I do not think it is possible to present a case for mysticism as I have stated above. It stands and falls on subjective experience, there is no objective method of testing it.

If something cant even be defined, how can it be discussed or debated?
My biggest problem with it is that it leads to superstition, by way of woo woo.
Just look at 'The Secret' or Deepok Chopra.

Really what is the supernatural, but the Not Real. If something supernatural exists...it would be natural.
The thing about 'mysticism' is that it provides nothing practical. If I thought it would, I'd be all about it, but it just doesnt. Doing payote in a cave can be a really awesome experience, but it doesnt advance any actual knowledge or real insight into the universe. I know this....because I've done Payote in a cave.
I'm actually all for keeping on testing 'mysticism', maybe one day it will provide us with something, but thus far, it hasnt...till it does it might as well be dismissed.

It is like when you said:
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Are you suggesting that there is no truth to be unearthed outside of the scientific enterprise? Are all metaphysical questions to be reduced to empirical questions?

When it comes to understanding the universe...yes. Because the is the only thing that shows itself to work.
The development of modern science and the scientific method have largely made 'metaphysics' an outdated and obsolete "science".
Metaphysics, is just well....all talk.

But trust me, if someone actually figures out how to ascend or tap into the universe, and can show some real evidence, I'll be the first to sign up.

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I apologise if you felt I was just name dropping, that is not my intention

I know

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #41 - September 24, 2010, 04:26 AM

There is one other thing.....

It is not a matter of insisting that no 'god' (however defined) exists.
However, it is a matter of saying that there are many 'gods' (as defined already) that we can pretty much disprove, gods that are not defined or not defined in any meaningful way that would make them 'gods', cant be dismissed outright, but also cant be accepted.
Therefor the only default option is to conclude that gods dont exist, until proven in some way that they may.
This is true for pretty much everything. If there is no evidence that something exists, the default is to assume it doesnt.

At least from my POV, I think that cuts more to what atheism is (a theism.....without any theism, kind of thing) .
It is not a positive statement (I believe there is no god).
It is a negative one (I dont accept any god claims, therefor currently I cant hold a belief in one).

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #42 - September 25, 2010, 08:58 PM

Quote from: Homer on September 24, 2010, 04:21 AM

Really what is the supernatural, but the Not Real. If something supernatural exists...it would be natural.

Sure, the difference between the natural/ supernatural divided after all is only defined a posteriori based on supposed causal laws of "nature". The distinction is a false one, there is only reality and whatever so happens to be, is: it doesn't need a further distinction.

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eal insight into the universe. I know this....because I've done Payote in a cave.
I'm actually all for keeping on testing 'mysticism', maybe one day it will provide us with something, but thus far, it hasnt...till it does it might as well be dismissed.

It is like when you said:When it comes to understanding the universe...yes. Because the is the only thing that shows itself to work.
The development of modern science and the scientific method have largely made 'metaphysics' an outdated and obsolete "science".
Metaphysics, is just well....all talk.

This is a common point about metaphysics and it strikes me as curious. Every person has ideas about the fundamental nature of reality even if that person decides not to divulge their thoughts. I think the idea fuels from an interpretation of the objective world as so thoroughly and fantastically explained by our scientific laws.
The objective world, when described by science is a useful, practical fiction. The proper sceptical stance on an abstract system of thought cannot be anything more than this. Science is not experienced, it is memorised, conceptualised, understood and articulated but it is still a description of a thing, not a thing in itself. That thing, without its description, is the reality.
Reality is experienced and then interpreted. No man can stand outside of himself to know whether his interpretation of that reality into descriptions is right or wrong. Every man must doubt. Objectivity thus becomes a fiction invented because descriptions come to be agreed upon but the problem is still the same: man as a whole cannot stand outside of himself to know if all his descriptions are true. Man cannot be divorced from his reality: when it finally comes down to it, and that existential question is asked about the self, what archimedian point can man really achieve? Where does man stand to get an "objective" look at himself? Science is an incredibly useful but fictitious exercise. It asks questions that can be agreed upon, these other questions are beyond it. These questions everyone answers not physically but metaphysically. This metaphysical makeup of a person is as much a part of their reality (and even more) as 1+1=2.

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #43 - September 25, 2010, 09:59 PM

I often doubt descriptive fictions such as gravity, preferring instead my own internal realisation of the universal force which unifies us as one with the universe.

Sorry but it all sounds a tad magical to be brought into the sphere of practical debate. Nice in poetry and folk songs, though.

*scoots off into the sunset on his unicycle*

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #44 - September 25, 2010, 10:15 PM

and may I ask, what is more important than poetry?

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #45 - September 25, 2010, 10:23 PM

Kinder Eggs.

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #46 - September 26, 2010, 02:26 AM

I just wanna say that this is a great thread. Good points made by z10, Mount A Bison and Homer.

As you can probably imagine, my position would be very similar to Homer's and Bison's, but I've learned a thing or two from z10's words. Thanks.

To me, it's mainly a question of how much time and effort to devote to mystical experience to extract any possible new knowledge from it. My gut feeling tells me there isn't any knowledge in it that cannot be obtained from science, so I would hate to see resources diverted in that direction. If someone personally wants to go and spend days/months/years/decades of their life engaged in mysticism, I will not get in their way. If I ever engaged in that stuff, it certainly wouldn't be for very long.

Quote from: z10 on September 21, 2010, 12:48 AM
I do not know how much truth there is in these ideas, I am merely standing at the doorstep and asking that whatever is behind that door be given a fair hearing and not dismissed out of hand just because those that have stepped through here have called themselves "religious" and/ or "mystical".

Yup. That's the skeptic position too.

Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 21, 2010, 02:47 AM
By what process do we safeguard against human error, against neurosis, against downright folly? You seem to hint that in so deeply subjective an enterprise one cannot hope to intrude the tools of the scientific method of independent verification. If so, we have no filtering sytem, no mode of quality control by which to arrive at objective truth and weed out the charlatan from the true pioneer, the quack from the genuine scientific explorer.

+1

Quote from: Homer on September 24, 2010, 04:21 AM
Well you could, but that would take forever, there are infinite definitions of religion and religious experience, including ones that have not been thought of yet, someone probably just invented one right now, so you cant address them all. That is why orthodox religion is addressed more often in any kind of public discussion. It is the most significant.

+1

Quote from: Homer on September 24, 2010, 04:21 AM
I'm actually all for keeping on testing 'mysticism', maybe one day it will provide us with something, but thus far, it hasnt...till it does it might as well be dismissed.

+1

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If the matter is one that can be settled by observation, make the observation yourself. Aristotle could have avoided the mistake of thinking that women have fewer teeth than men, by the simple device of asking Mrs. Aristotle to keep her mouth open while he counted. He did not do so because he thought he knew ...

What? Aristotle wanted his wife to keep her mouth shut?

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #47 - September 26, 2010, 11:00 AM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #48 - September 26, 2010, 11:24 AM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #49 - September 26, 2010, 02:45 PM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #50 - September 27, 2010, 06:18 AM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #51 - September 27, 2010, 07:42 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 26, 2010, 11:24 AM

The instinctive response to the man who raises the spectre of mysticism is to reflexively jab a finger in his eye with glee (as may be noted from Thinkfree's response) but if the mystics relinquish their palpably misleading religious verbiage, if they prune the scope of their metaphysical garden a tad we might reach a higher fertile plain.

This is a good point. Ofcourse, what one calls "god" and the other calls the "absolute" and a third calls the "transcendent/ metaphysical" is just a quibble of names. We can choose the neutral third term and continue on our quest. The idea, however, is that because reality is to be experienced to be noetically grasped, you cannot make any a priori comment on how big or small the metaphysical garden really is, what it encompasses, how and why it is - this will all be discovered through personal direct understanding.

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Don't misunderstand, I would kill for a hot lesbian scene, but I think we owe it to our concept of wellbeing, our sanity, and ultimately our freedom (from the treadmill of desire) to let the mystics pull up a chair in this discourse. Or might the rascals prefer a Turkish rug? But kindly post a couple of heavyset bouncers at the door to turn away Allah's gang (I nominate Thinkfree and Teapot). No place in this august metaphysical club for towelheads or blockheads.

yes, let no man arrive with preconceptions.

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Spinoza, to come down a peg, was a towering genius whose work on poltical economy is of lasting interest to this idiot. The fellow gets special mention in my work. Let the cross-fertilisation begin in earnest, let us fuck with carnal abandon til the faint light of dawn cometh.

I would be interested in hearing about your work, if and when you can divulge.

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #52 - September 27, 2010, 08:01 PM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #53 - September 27, 2010, 08:03 PM

Yes, but I was wondering when your book will be done

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #54 - September 27, 2010, 09:04 PM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #55 - September 27, 2010, 09:13 PM

I look forward to it.

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #56 - September 27, 2010, 09:18 PM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #57 - September 27, 2010, 09:20 PM
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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #58 - September 27, 2010, 09:23 PM

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Re: Does Atheism Poison Everything?
Reply #59 - September 27, 2010, 09:26 PM

Big time.

You crack me up.
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