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Theme Changer

 Topic: Anglicisation ?

 (Read 4483 times)
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  • Anglicisation ?
     OP - September 22, 2010, 06:46 PM
    I was wondering about this today. How/why did Scotland and Ireland stop speaking their native languages (gaelic) ?
    when did English become the primary language in those two countries? was it like 5 centuries ago or more recent?

    Most importantly, did the English force them to speak English? like did they use English as the official language after the occupation of Scotland/Ireland? or was it more of a voluntary act by the Scots/Irish for the sake of practicality? 

    This really interests me. Looking forward to reading your insights.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #1 - September 22, 2010, 07:28 PM
    Haven't got a clue, but I know Welsh is a dying language and we really need to stop spending money on Welsh roadsigns! Grin
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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #2 - September 22, 2010, 07:42 PM
    yeah, there so long & expensive

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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #3 - September 22, 2010, 07:52 PM
    Welsh always reminds me of when you fall asleep on the keyboard and end up typing gibberish Grin

    In response to the OP, off the top of my head I remember the bf ranting about how at one point most things scottish were made illegal in scotland, especially speaking gaelic and wearing tartan. Not sure about Ireland. I'll see if I can find anything on the internet that's more concrete Smiley
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #4 - September 22, 2010, 08:08 PM
    Quote
    at one point most things scottish were made illegal in scotland, especially speaking gaelic and wearing tartan.


    Same story in Ireland, I'll see if I can find a link which explains in more detail. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #5 - September 22, 2010, 08:13 PM
    I found this for Scotland

    Dress Act 1746 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dress_Act_1746

    An excerpt:-
    Quote
    The Dress Act was part of the Act of Proscription which came into force on 1 August 1746 and made wearing "the Highland Dress" including tartan or a kilt illegal in Scotland as well as reiterating the Disarming Act. The Jacobite Risings between 1689 and 1746 found their most effective support amongst the Scottish clans, and this Act was part of a series of measures attempting to bring the warrior clans under government control by crushing Gaelic culture. An exemption allowed the kilt to be worn in the military, continuing the tradition established by the Black Watch regiment.

    The law was repealed in 1782.

  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #6 - September 22, 2010, 08:26 PM
    no wonder the English are so reserved - they've got a sordid history to keep under wraps
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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #7 - September 22, 2010, 08:33 PM
    Here's a brief history of the Irish language....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #8 - September 22, 2010, 08:48 PM
    .
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #9 - September 22, 2010, 09:00 PM
    w
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #10 - September 22, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 22, 2010, 08:26 PM
    no wonder the English are so reserved - they've got a sordid history to keep under wraps


    Meh, The Irish, Scottish and Welsh can re introduce their own language if they wish. The problem lies in the fact very few young people want to take it up and learn it when English is the useful and necessary language
    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #11 - September 22, 2010, 09:27 PM
    English became the language of power - politics, law and commerce and education (by force of law).  This created a distinction between the wealthy (city dwellers), who spoke English and the poor (country people), who did not.

    At a certain point the language of the poor "collapses" from the pressure .  In Ireland with the famine - which decimated the poor through death and emigration.  From that point the "poor" language was shunned by the people by association.

    I imagine something similar happened in Egypt with Coptic.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #12 - September 22, 2010, 09:30 PM
    well said - but what did the Irish famine (as per the wiki article) have to do with English replacing gaelic?
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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #13 - September 22, 2010, 09:39 PM
    It caused mass death and emigration among the Irish speaking population, thus helping to make them a smaller proportion of the population.

    Quote from: Loki on September 22, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Meh, The Irish, Scottish and Welsh can re introduce their own language if they wish. The problem lies in the fact very few young people want to take it up and learn it when English is the useful and necessary language


    I don't know about the Scottish, but the Irish and Welsh already have reinstated their languages, nor is there any issue about young people not wanting to learn them - they're not given any choice, Irish and Welsh are compulsory subjects at school in their respective countries.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #14 - September 22, 2010, 09:40 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on September 22, 2010, 07:28 PM
    Haven't got a clue, but I know Welsh is a dying language and we really need to stop spending money on Welsh roadsigns! Grin



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    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #15 - September 22, 2010, 09:42 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on September 22, 2010, 09:39 PM
    I don't know about the Scottish, but the Irish and Welsh already have reinstated their languages, nor is there any issue about young people not wanting to learn them - they're not given any choice, Irish and Welsh are compulsory subjects at school in their respective countries.


    I didn't know that .... problem solved then o.O
    Force a generation to learn it and a few generations down, it'll be the norm maybe ...

    I recall reading a few years ago a article which warned many world languages are dying out and becoming extinct

    Edit: Here it is.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/18cnd-language.html
    Quote
    Of the estimated 7,000 languages spoken in the world today, linguists say, nearly half are in danger of extinction and are likely to disappear in this century. In fact, they are now falling out of use at a rate of about one every two weeks.

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #16 - September 22, 2010, 09:46 PM
    No, Irish will never become a majority language here again.  Its been compulsory in schools since 1921, most people still speak english in their daily life.  It won't become extinct, but it won't supplant english either.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #17 - September 22, 2010, 09:52 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on September 22, 2010, 09:46 PM
    No, Irish will never become a majority language here again.  Its been compulsory in schools since 1921, most people still speak english in their daily life.  It won't become extinct, but it won't supplant english either.


    Exactly.

    The thing about English is that people of different ethnicities add words from their own languages. Which often become words in common usage, later.
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #18 - September 22, 2010, 09:54 PM
    You cant preserve a culture simply by keeping the language, nor is cultural preservation a necessity.  

    I dont see why they are compulsary subjects - they should be a choice like any other language/subject.  
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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #19 - September 22, 2010, 09:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 22, 2010, 09:30 PM
    well said - but what did the Irish famine (as per the wiki article) have to do with English replacing gaelic?

    As Cheetah said - it caused population collapse.
    What followed were the social ramifications of this - the language was associated with famine.  
    More and more people rejected it - as being associated with poverty, lack of education and ignorance.  
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #20 - September 22, 2010, 10:01 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 22, 2010, 09:54 PM
    You cant preserve a culture simply by keeping the language, nor is cultural preservation a necessity. 

    I dont see why they are compulsary subjects - they should be a choice like any other language/subject. 


    Not all other subjects are choices.  Maths and English, for example, are compulsory subjects too. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #21 - September 22, 2010, 10:06 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on September 22, 2010, 10:01 PM
    Not all other subjects are choices.  Maths and English, for example, are compulsory subjects too.  

    ok, but at least maths & english are useful tools for understanding the world around us.  Gaelic isnt.
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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #22 - September 22, 2010, 10:16 PM
    It is if you live in a country where the vast majority are bilingual, the constitution is written in Irish, the national anthem is sung in Irish, and there are parts of the country where only Irish is spoken.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #23 - September 22, 2010, 10:20 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on September 22, 2010, 10:16 PM
    It is if you live in a country where the vast majority are bilingual, the constitution is written in Irish, the national anthem is sung in Irish, and there are parts of the country where only Irish is spoken.


    Wait-- vast majority? Not according to that Wikipedia article on the Irish language you posted, not even close.
    fuck you
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #24 - September 22, 2010, 10:26 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on September 22, 2010, 10:16 PM
    It is if you live in a country where the vast majority are bilingual, the constitution is written in Irish, the national anthem is sung in Irish, and there are parts of the country where only Irish is spoken.

    And Wales? In any case I still dont think thats cause for it to be compulsary, think there are other factors at hand. 

    In any case the constitution can be translated, and the national anthem - well lol @ the national anthem as a reason.
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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #25 - September 22, 2010, 10:34 PM
    There are whole parts of Wales where Welsh is the first language. Its just that English and England is the hegemon of these islands, and has been for a thousand years.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #26 - September 22, 2010, 10:37 PM
    f
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #27 - September 22, 2010, 10:38 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 22, 2010, 10:20 PM
    Wait-- vast majority? Not according to that Wikipedia article on the Irish language you posted, not even close.


    The wiki article is dependent on answers people give on their census forms, and I know from personal experience people tend to underestimate their level of Irish and claim none when they know some, and some when they're fluent.

    Quote
    And Wales?


    Dunno, sorry, you'll have to ask a Welsh person.

    Quote
    In any case I still dont think thats cause for it to be compulsary, think there are other factors at hand.


    Of course there are other factors at hand, mainly that the Irish don't want their language to join the many minority languages due to become extinct in the next century.   I was just reacting to your trivialisation of what you quaintly describe as "gaelic".  Irish is  a minority language, not a dead language, it is still used in daily life over here.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #28 - September 22, 2010, 10:51 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on September 22, 2010, 10:38 PM
    Of course there are other factors at hand, mainly that the Irish don't want their language to join the many minority languages due to become extinct in the next century.   

    Yeah, thats what I was getting at.  Wales is an even  better example of this.   Reminds me of the way desi parents preserve their culture too, even after its past its expiry date. 

    If a language cant survive without being artifically being propped up, then its only a matter of time before it no longer is common use.

    Reminds me of the time I was forced to learn Latin in school when I could have learned history, philosophy, biology etc instead.
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  • Re: Anglicisation ?
     Reply #29 - September 22, 2010, 10:54 PM
    Irish as a compulsory subject doesn't prevent anyone from learning history, biology, etc.  And I don't see how teaching it in school is artificially propping it up - if  that's the case then english is also being artificially propped up, as is french.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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