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Theme Changer

 Topic: Dazed and Confused from SA

 (Read 5187 times)
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  • Dazed and Confused from SA
     OP - September 23, 2010, 07:14 AM

    Hi there

    I am a 38 yr old married male from Johannesburg South Africa.
    I think I fall under the umbrella of a sunni muslim - brought up in the Shafi mathab.

    This intro might be long so be warned Smiley

    I started using the concept of free thought about 3 years ago and started asking questions to myself regarding everything and that led to religion.

    So I started visiting Islamic websites to negate my constant questioning, reading everything that did not make sense to me starting with Adam and eve and how in heavens name Noah got the world's animals onto his ark, I now believe it is a fable.

    I was brought up in a not too practicing family, only read Jumuah prayers, observed Ramadaan and did  the eid prayers. During my schooling years I was told to attend muslim school after secular school eneded in the afternoons and I was taught that even though I read the the prayer Our Father in secular school, Islam was my religion and I must follow accordingly. I did that naturally without questioning because I was told to by my parents, grandparent and all those who came before them Smiley

    My problem with religion only started about 3 or so years ago, I know it took a while for me to take the blinkers off my eyes.

    I have a few issues with religion that has led me to where I am now, a confused man with a loving wife and daughter. I don't pray, not even Jumuah, even though my wife would like me to. I just say I feel like a hypocrite praying on a Friday only when we suppose to pray 5 times a day. My wife she does not pray either, except for the Friday prayer. My in-laws live with us and they pray when they feel the need to, Like, during Ramadaan they will make all their prayers and after ramadaan they continue till the fad wheres off.
    Being from South Africa, muslims follow the no alcohol rule very strictly and everything has to be halaal and there is no substitute. Our restaurants even sell macon and egg sandwiches lol. Ironically bacon is substituted.

    Anyway back to my original train of thought as to the issues I have:

    Firstly it is Free will:

    If I did not have free will and everything was pre-destined, would the Almighty lead me to this website afters a few years of searching for the truth.
    But in Islam they say we have free will which I don't believe because when planning something and you tell someone you planning on going on a holiday in December for arguments sake, the first word out of a persons mouth is Insha-alla (if god wills), where the heck is my free will then if I can only go on holiday if god wills, am I not saving money to make the trip a possibility? How can someone say we have free will when every utterance is met with Insha-alla Ameen? I will leave that issue there Smiley

    Secondly it is the notion of the Hell fire:

    In South Africa most of our first language is English and second language is Afrikaans or vice versa depending on you upbringing.
    Muslim school we are taught you are taught your alif, baa, taas and to read the Quran in arabic, we read and read and don't understand a bloody word we are reading and no effort is made to teach us what we are reading, we pick up words here and there like Jannah and Jahannam but that is it.
    So I decided to read the translation of the Quran on the net ( the Yusuf Ali version I think) and what I noticed is that almost on every page the non-believer is destined to the hell fire.
    This got me thinking, if Mother Theresa believed in the trinity she should be going to hell according to the Quran ( I maybe taking it out of context or this or that verse is not representative for this day and age as it was only meant for the non-believers in muhammad's time as people with faith would say)
    I cannot fathom how the Incas of Peru are all destined for hell, surely most of them were good and did good deeds and served humanity. Surely the Dalai lama is a good man, surely he can't be destined for hell???
    If anyone asks me why I am not praying or fasting I say because I already have a place reserved for me in hell, so why the hell should I pray.
    I feel that I am a good person morally and ethically, why should I be doomed to eternal damnation, if it is that way then so be it.

    Those are my biggest gripes with religion and so here I am dazed and confuzed, your proverbial fence sitter even though when an Islamic discussion does come up in our household I tend to point out the negative things mentioned in the Quran and hadeeth.
    Like I told my wife, babes, you know that the Quran says if you don't listen to me I may hit you if you keep not listening to me, she just said you try it.

    My in-laws however, even they not very religious will say why can things not be as simple as it were in the old days where we believed what we were taught and that was that. In todays age we have everybody trying to change the religion. I remind them that not everybody is from our part of the world and there are many flavours to Islam, who says their flavour is right?

    Shit I am rambling here, well that is sort of my introduction, it is funny that was trying to find my religion going to Islamic websites and reading this and that and by clicking on a link on one of those websites (don't know which one) I ended up here. God surely works in mysterious ways  whistling2

    Doc for now


  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #1 - September 23, 2010, 07:47 AM

    .
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #2 - September 23, 2010, 07:52 AM

    Yours sounds like a familiar story.  Welcome board.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #3 - September 23, 2010, 07:54 AM

    it is funny that was trying to find my religion going to Islamic websites and reading this and that and by clicking on a link on one of those websites (don't know which one) I ended up here. God surely works in mysterious ways  whistling2



    haha the same happened to me. I was looking for advise on how to fast Ramadan without fainting hehe, and then I found a thread in here that talked about fasting, and I was happy I found this site  dance

    if you wanna know, I never found a useful advise about the fasting issue, and I'm so behind in my academics thanks to the "prophet"  Angry
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #4 - September 23, 2010, 07:56 AM

    Welcome !!!  Smiley

    Quote
    This got me thinking, if Mother Theresa believed in the trinity she should be going to hell according to the Quran ( I maybe taking it out of context or this or that verse is not representative for this day and age as it was only meant for the non-believers in muhammad's time as people with faith would say)
    I cannot fathom how the Incas of Peru are all destined for hell, surely most of them were good and did good deeds and served humanity. Surely the Dalai lama is a good man, surely he can't be destined for hell???


    Yeah that was a big problem for me too !!!
    The answer that I got from my Muslim friends was :
     http://www.islamsgreen.org/islams_green/2006/04/do_good_people_.html  wacko

    I am intelligently designed by God, and I originated from a woman made from rib who ate an apple because of a snake in paradise...
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #5 - September 23, 2010, 08:09 AM

    Welcome !!!  Smiley

    Yeah that was a big problem for me too !!!
    The answer that I got from my Muslim friends was :
     http://www.islamsgreen.org/islams_green/2006/04/do_good_people_.html  wacko


    I'm not sure that Mother Teresa is a good example for this proposition - there is a lot of evidence that she was not a nice person. She was more interested in saving people's souls than in saving their lives.  If their lives got in the way of saving their soul, their lives suffered.
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #6 - September 23, 2010, 09:51 AM

    A soul's personality may be inferred from the name by which they go. Any reader of the Russian greats is my friend.

    Before we light candles at the altar of Boris Pasternak, a pressing question: Wanna come back to my place for lunch and a roll in the hay? You are married? I won't tell if you don't. Let us ditch our wives, our famished kids and our huge mortgages that are a financial drain on resources, set up a hot gaybar in sunny Thailand and fornicate with carnal abandon.  

    Offer ends at sundown.

    Yours sounds like a familiar story.  Welcome board.

    Now that's a great pair of consecutive posts. Islame, why does Bison's story sound so familiar to you? Just wondering.  grin12

    Oh and welcome to the forum, Dr_Zhivago. Have a parrot.  parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #7 - September 23, 2010, 10:01 AM

    ^Hitchens is a great source on the failings of Mother Theresa.

    Anyway welcome aboard, Doc

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #8 - September 23, 2010, 10:34 AM

    Welcome!

    because when planning something and you tell someone you planning on going on a holiday in December for arguments sake, the first word out of a persons mouth is Insha-alla (if god wills),


    They could easily argue that god has planned some major events in your life (like death) and that you have freewill to work within those constraints - after all, nobody has the freewill as to when their are born or die Smiley



    where the heck is my free will then if I can only go on holiday if god wills, am I not saving money to make the trip a possibility? How can someone say we have free will when every utterance is met with Insha-alla Ameen? I will leave that issue there Smiley


    Do you know where Insha Allah comes from?  If I am not mistaken some Jews challenged Mo to tell them "How many people were in THE CAVE", which was a crappy story about some people going to sleep in a cave and waking up years later so that Allah could ask them how long they had been asleep and show off how cool he was (yeah, thanks for ruining my life bastard.)  Not sure what the prize was for being the best guesser, eternity without being burned maybe?  Not sure.

    Mo said he'd tell them on a certain day, although why he couldn't tell them immediately I have no idea....unless of course he had to go and find out.  Some days later he still didn't know the answer to the question.  When he eventually found out he must have noticed a problem, different Jews believed in a different number so no matter what he answered some people would say he was wrong.

    So he came back and gave his answer, which is in the Quran

    18:22 - They will say, “(That they were) three, the fourth was their dog.” Others also conjecture (and put the figure at) five, counting the dog six. Still others say, “Seven! Their dog was the eighth.” Say, “My Lord knows their true number! Others know only very little.” So, do not discuss that about them except cursorily, nor inquire anyone about them.

    In short: "You all have difference answers.  God COULD tell you the answer IF he wanted but he doesn't want to, so shut up and stop asking me"

    And his explanation as to why it took him so long to come up with his non-answer?  Because Mo said he WOULD give them the answer, yet it is for Allah to make decisions and not Mo, so to punish Mo Allah made him sweat it out for a while and then told him "In future when you say you will do something you should say IF GOD WILLS".




    Secondly it is the notion of the Hell fire:


    Yeah, imagine all those children burning in fire for eternity.  Who'd want to spend forever with a bastard who would do that to people eh?


    Those are my biggest gripes with religion and so here I am dazed and confuzed


    When I buy an electrical device my experience of the instruction manual varies.  Sometimes they are really clear and easy and I know what to do, sometimes they are unclear and confusing so I have no idea what to do.  None of them I would consider "perfect", but the clear one which helps me to understand exactly what to do is closer to perfect.

    Now imagine an all-powerful perfect being, what kind of an instruction manual would it create?  A perfect one of course.  So if you are reading it and it is confusing you, is it perfect?  Either it wasn't written by god (now there's a surprise) or it was written by a god who deliberately wants to confuse people so that

    A: You cannot tell it apart from every other bullshit religion on the planet, and
    B: He can have his fun by sending loads of people to burn in hell for eternity because they didn't accidentally choose the only "correct" religion

    Either way, the Quran can fuck off Smiley




    Like I told my wife, babes, you know that the Quran says if you don't listen to me I may hit you if you keep not listening to me, she just said you try it.

    My in-laws however, even they not very religious will say why can things not be as simple as it were in the old days where we believed what we were taught and that was that.


    It was never like that, there were always people who questioned, that's why religious beliefs evolved blasphemy laws.  The religions which killed objectors were more successful.  Your wife is a perfect example.  She practises HER version of Islam, one in which you don't have to pray 5 times a day because that's too much effort.  She's doing what SHE wants to do, not what she believes Allah wants her to do.


    God surely works in mysterious ways  whistling2


    Indeed, mysteriously identical to a god that doesn't exist Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #9 - September 24, 2010, 10:36 AM

    Thanx all for the welcomes, I am sure I will enjoy my stay here and learn a lot, dunno many South Africans that share my feelings though, wish I could find some, hopefully they will appear here  Cheesy

    I might take long to reply to responses, I am still living in a house where Islam is in the majority, will be working on that slowly though, so I will try and visit this site daily when at home, from work I have no issues though, its a public holiday in SA today and it is Jumuah - so while my in-laws are at mosque I am sitting here typing, ain't life grand Smiley
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #10 - September 24, 2010, 03:01 PM

    Heya Dr_Zhivago!  signwelcome Nice story.

    Re: Mother Teresa, here's an interesting episode about Mother Teresa, Mahatma Ghandi, and Dalai Lama, that you might find interesting also. There are 3 parts there, btw.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Z7AI1J9Z0

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #11 - September 24, 2010, 03:05 PM

    The Hell's Angel documentary Hitchens did on Mother Theresa is pretty good.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ0i3nCx60

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKkcDgeYBdk&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGuzFUeDDgY&feature=related

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #12 - September 24, 2010, 03:19 PM

    Not watched the videos just now but seem him talk about her before.  The old miracle of "Her light in her photo looks different, and all we did was to use a new kind of camera film" Cheesy

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #13 - November 15, 2010, 07:31 AM

    Last night I was talking to my wife about unethical hadiths and she was completely disgusted, She however still believes in the almighty but does not believe Quran and Hadith as it is written by men to control women and she can never follow a man like Mo, 2 weeks ago she said she loved Mo when a guy on facebook asked her how she felt about him.
    She then asked me if I would mind if she wore more revealing clothes and I naturally said I would not mind at all. I was asked what would I do if my mother saw her in that type of clothing, I said I would defend her decision. So she said ok, I only have one request, please don't tell your mother you are not muslim, I did not even mention to her I was an ex-muslim, she must have figured it out, woohooo baby steps, I am a very happy chappy this morning
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #14 - November 15, 2010, 07:35 AM

    Oh, wow, that's amazing, Dr. I'm happy for you.....


    ...now you can get her in bikini  Afro

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #15 - November 15, 2010, 12:51 PM

     dance

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #16 - November 15, 2010, 01:24 PM

    Last night I was talking to my wife about unethical hadiths and she was completely disgusted, She however still believes in the almighty but does not believe Quran and Hadith as it is written by men to control women and she can never follow a man like Mo, 2 weeks ago she said she loved Mo when a guy on facebook asked her how she felt about him.
    She then asked me if I would mind if she wore more revealing clothes and I naturally said I would not mind at all. I was asked what would I do if my mother saw her in that type of clothing, I said I would defend her decision. So she said ok, I only have one request, please don't tell your mother you are not muslim, I did not even mention to her I was an ex-muslim, she must have figured it out, woohooo baby steps, I am a very happy chappy this morning


     Afro

    fuck you
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #17 - November 15, 2010, 02:22 PM


    Quote from: Dr_Zhivago
    So I started visiting Islamic websites to negate my constant questioning, reading everything that did not make sense to me starting with Adam and eve and how in heavens name Noah got the world's animals onto his ark, I now believe it is a fable.


    Welcome.  Here's an entertaining Noah's Ark video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CccaGaKOlSI
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #18 - November 15, 2010, 03:19 PM

    cool vid  Afro
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #19 - November 15, 2010, 03:34 PM

    Quote from: Dr_Zhivago
    cool vid  Afro


    There are lots more of those videos here:
    http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/videos.html

    BTW: congrats on your wife's awakening!  Hopefully, wearing more revealing clothing doesn't mean dressing like a whore.  Disbelief in mythology doesn't negate the virtues of modesty.
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #20 - November 15, 2010, 03:43 PM

    yep I know, she said she does not mean being sluttish, but havin short sleeve dresses etc
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #21 - November 15, 2010, 03:46 PM

    The virtues of dressing like a ' whore' are much more satisfying. You should give it a try telomeme, you might  actually enjoy it.

     Roll Eyes
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #22 - November 15, 2010, 04:09 PM

    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    The virtues of dressing like a ' whore' are much more satisfying. You should give it a try telomeme, you might  actually enjoy it.


    As a straight male, the idea of skimpy, scandalous dress really isn't my thing.  In earlier days, I derived much pleasure from setting eyes on the exposed skin and curves of random tartish women, but, ultimately, I was always more drawn to girls who radiated self-respect and a degree of chastity.  As a married man, I think I'd be concerned if my wife suddenly decided to flaunt herself in public.
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #23 - November 15, 2010, 04:32 PM

    Self-respect  Huh?
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #24 - November 15, 2010, 05:05 PM

    Quote from: Prince Spinoza
    Self-respect  Huh?


    I'm not sure what your question is but I'm going to assume you're confused about my attributing modest dress to self-respect.  My opinions are based mostly on personal experience although there are studies that echo my feelings on the matter.  In the past, I dated a lot of women, and one observation I have is that those who dress shamelessly (i.e. exposed cleavage, really short skirts, etc.) are often attention-seekers.  Now, I understand that it feels good to attract members of the opposite sex but, in my opinion, a lot of young girls take this so far that it registers as desparation.  It seems that, for some people, self-esteem rides on the lustful reactions of others while it would be healthier to embrace other qualities, such as intellect, compassion, creativity and integrity.  As I matured, I found myself attracted to those who didn't need to elicit cheap instinctual reactions but rather possessed these latter healthier qualities. 

  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #25 - November 15, 2010, 05:23 PM

    By that logic, 99% of the guys I know have no self-respect.
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #26 - November 15, 2010, 05:36 PM

    Quote from: Prince Spinoza
    By that logic, 99% of the guys I know have no self-respect.


    So, are you saying that most of the guys you know care only about the lustful attention they receive from females?  I think we all go through phases like that, and maybe it's okay for a short while, but such a mind-set is unsustainable in the long run.  When people get addicted to this kind of attention, they're liable to wind up in failed marriages or languishing the glory days.
       
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #27 - November 15, 2010, 05:39 PM

    I'm still a teenager, so yes.  grin12 Might have been a tad hyperbolic but you get the gist...
  • Re: Dazed and Confused from SA
     Reply #28 - November 15, 2010, 05:50 PM

    Quote from: Prince Spinoza
    I'm still a teenager, so yes.  grin12 Might have been a tad hyperbolic but you get the gist...


    Well, in that case, your hormones are beyond control and it's perfectly understandable what peeks the minds of you and your peers.  Do keep in mind that having multidimensional cerebral qualities can be effective in attracting women of all ages.
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