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 Topic: Islam's power

 (Read 2588 times)
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  • Islam's power
     OP - September 24, 2010, 11:26 AM

    An article by someone who does not share the views of Hamed Abdel-Samad re the pending collapse of the Islamic world


    Quote
    Why did Karen Jespersen´ and Ralf Pittelkows´ latest book "Islam's power "get so many steamed up ?


    The answer is simple.

    It is because of its inconvenient message, that the threat against the Western world does not come from saber-rattling lunatics, but from a " moderate middle group, which will gradually become more and more radicalized. Things will therefore not improve, they will rather become worse, says Pittelkow and Jespersen, and this alarming allegation has not fallen on fertile ground among people with a firm conviction that the problems will gradually disappear, as long as one stretch out ones hand to people we have no reason to be afraid of.

    " Instead of demonizing and pointing fingers at a large social group, Ralf Pittelkow and his new book co-author Karen Jespersen should begin to work positively for integration , "writes Klaus Bondam (Berlingske Tidende 25 August), and this view is common in the cultural radical wing, and even also in the " decent "bourgeois wing. One of them is - or was – Berlingske Tidende´s commentator Christopher Azrouni who reviewed the book for  the Free Press Society´s News Blog Sappho. "I've always somehow counted on sex and drugs and Rock and Roll would get the shovel under the most assiduous Muslims. What the heck , we 're only human . "

    But he has abandoned this view. Azrouni and many others believed that Islam - like the religion influenced social ideologies of Nazism and Communism - would sink under its own weight and that - just like the others – it was merely a surface phenomenon, which over time would burst like a bubble and leave everything as before. Business as usual . The same attitude that was shown during the German occupation, which many cooperation friendly historians emphasize, was a " peaceful occupation ", an occupatio pacifica and therefore no one should get upset about. Resistance was wrong and useless, say these historians, and it was best to wait until the Allies came to our rescue , or until the conquerors had become tired of Nazism and eventually went on to become Danes with beer, roast pork and X- factor. Then everything would continue as before. And  certainly that would not have been impossible. The idea may then be justified, and it has also been thought of before, though not always with success, as history can boast a number of examples of. One of them are Brahmins and Buddhists in Afghanistan before the Islamic conquest.

    Islam never lets go

    Virtually nobody has heard of them, which is a shame because the Indian / British author and Nobel laureate VS Naipaul has told a story about them, we could learn from.  In "Among the Believers" he illustrates the same - let 's call it innocent - attitude among the contemporary cultural elite in the kingdom of Sind before its annexation by the Muslim caliphate in the seventh century CE. The area of Sind lies today in Afghanistan and part of Pakistan and was populated by both Buddhists and Hindus, and here - where the kingdom was - Naipaul stumpled upon Chachnama , an old report on the kingdom of Sind´s transition to Islam, and what happened next.

    This transition was not particularly peaceful - to put it mildly - but this is not so important in this context. What is important, is the attitude of the Brahmins and Buddhist priests to the new world, they were suddenly presented with. They saw a new warrior religion arise out of the blue, and fatalists as they were, they took it with devastating calm in the hope that Islam was a surface phenomenon, which would leave the country's culture and popular substrate intact. So an occupatio pacifica. And therefore the conquest in most places was aided by local officials and Brahmins who turned to the oncoming Muslim General Bin Qasim and told him how he could best conquer their cities.

    Was it treason ? No, writes Naipaul with great empathy, it was rather a recognition of the fact, that power is power, and it is prudent to be on the side of the powerful. Credulous as they were, the  accomodating informants thought  that the then King would simply be replaced with a new king - and that life largely would continue as before. Business as usual . And a large proportion of the population must have thought the same. In many places they surrendered without a fight, unaware that the entire foundation of their culture was to be destroyed and replaced with another that was essentially foreign to everything they had ever known . After that  Sind fell and became Muslim.

    So what one might  say? Does this distant incident have anything to do with the current situation? I think it has. Now it's just not Sind, which is about to surrender to a power, it hardly understands, but the entire Western world. And just like in Sind the surrender will be enabled by a highcast (" humanists ") without popular ties, who mistakenly believe that everything will be as before. Just in a slightly different way. The parallel with the misfortune of the kingdom of Sind is striking , yet not entirely relevant because Sind - like the Middle East, North Africa , the Balkans , Hungary, Greece and India - was subjected to a military conquest, and this is certainly not true now. The situation today has very humorously been summarized by Glistrup (former politician) who in characteristic Bornholmian (Danish dialect) said "First , they conquered vast territories by force of arms .Today they send a lot of green grocers up here !

    So no, we will definitely not be conquered by force of arms . Our situation is rather like the few Muslim areas - Java and sub-Saharan Africa - who voluntarily converted to Islam without first having felt the knife at their throats. Well good enough for them, you might say, but no not really. In these countries - as well as in almost all Muslim countries - the few surviving religious minorities are in a very dangerous position, and therefore you could say, without twisting  the truth, that the Islamization - be it peaceful or " Bil Seif " (Arabic : " with the sword " ) - leads to the same thing. Either a monolithic and dictatorial state - or a multicultural state like Nigeria where non-Muslims must tread very cautiously, and where they eventually demographically will represent a minority (if they are not already doing so).

    Bamyan - a symbol of what we can expect

    I am personally convinced, that it will be the Danish non -Muslims destiny in  about half a century, and it's not a jolly perspective. The last remnants of Afghanistan's former Buddhist culture - the great 2000- year-old Buddha sculptures in Bamyan - were blown to pieces by the Taliban and will soon be forgotten forever. Our mind has learned to be selective , and who remembers today that the entire Middle East was Christian / Jewish / Ahura Mazda worshippers until it became a part of the Caliphate ? Very few. And even fewer realize that the Christian crusaders did not conquer an Arab / Muslim area, but just re - conquered the area  which the Muslim Arabs had subdued 400 years earlier. During the Crusades the Arabs - briefly - lost the area they had taken by force, but who thinks of this today? Or rather who DARES to think of it today, where history - thanks to our own historians and Orientalists – has had an anti-Christian twist thus equating Christianity with  pure evil. It is not just " green grocers " who threaten the West's stability, but the West's own highcast.

    By virtue of their " long march through the institutions " , the heirs of Georg Brandes and Poul Henningsen - the happy hippies – have put themselves in power throughout society, and after the not very glorious collapse of communism, they have tried a new social experiment that they believe would make the world a freer place to be - and according to them, Denmark is to be the liberated humankind´s  Social Benefits office. In this way, our own highcast - without knowing it !!!!! – have put a demographic and cultural Islamization in motion that can hardly be stopped now - and which also cannot even be discussed at the dinner table of the refined.

    Is it really this bad ? I think . Jespersen and Pittelkow are moderately optimistic, but I personally am not. There is no indication of composure and  back straightening vis a vis Islamization from the Danish Brahmins, who, like their predecessors in the kingdom of  Sind has opened their gates to a culture, they really do not understand.


    http://eticha.dk/news/

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #1 - September 24, 2010, 12:22 PM

    Interesting. I wish this was available in English on the original site too... thanks for translating and posting.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #2 - September 24, 2010, 12:47 PM

    Very interesting article.

    Quote
    Virtually nobody has heard of them, which is a shame because the Indian / British author and Nobel laureate VS Naipaul has told a story about them


    However as a Trinidadian myself  I'd just like to correct the writer - Sir V.S. Naipaul is a Trinidadian not an Indian.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._S._Naipaul


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #3 - September 25, 2010, 09:26 PM


    He's Trinidadian of Indian ancestry, though, and he does write alot about India.

    allat, you should get a hold of Naipaul's book 'Among the Believers', I think the section on Pakistan will resonate with you.

    edit: 'Among the Believers' was written just after the Iranian revolution.....he wrote a follow up to that book called 'Beyond Belief : Islamic Excursions Among the Converted Peoples ', which is the one I was referring to, but would reccomend them both. 'Beyond Belief' was written in the mid 1990's.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #4 - September 25, 2010, 09:28 PM


    There are some interesting books being published on Islam and modernity in mainland Europe at the moment. From reading this review I get the sense that maybe this particular one is speculative and could be seen as alarmist, although the reviewer seems to make some of these inferences and overlay his pessimism on it.

    If secular democracies are confident in themselves, I don't believe Islam can offer anything other than its own backwardness.

    In the past, throughout history, Islam was just louder, more coercive, more intimidating. It took on other belief systems that were rooted themselves in pre-enlightnment notions and social situations. So whilst some withstood the assertiveness of Islam, others just crumbled, especially in the light of Islamic power and dominion that encouraged the spread of the faith, directly or indirectly. Especially in societies less rooted in the certainties that Islam offered its followers and imperialists.

    In modern secular democracies Islam has to deal with universal notions of equality, the primacy of individual freedoms and conscience, and the independance of women. Next to this Islam is shrill and nasty, when offering itself in its raw imperial form. Who will forsake the prosperity and care of these principles, for the sinister nonsense and empty dogma that Islam offers?








    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #5 - September 26, 2010, 02:53 AM

    If secular democracies are confident in themselves, I don't believe Islam can offer anything other than its own backwardness.

    Well said.  Afro


    The problem is (as Mount A Bison has written in the Ayaan Hirsi Ali thread), demography and multiculturalism are keeping Islam alive and kicking in the heart of the West, i.e. Europe.  Multiculturalism is on it's way out, but demography is still strongly in Islam's favour.  And the fact that apostates find it so difficult due to the lack of social support is keeping Muslims from leaving Islam in droves.

    Anyway, that's my opinion, for what it's worth. Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #6 - September 26, 2010, 10:03 AM


    ateapotist, the demographic variable is something I don't know enough about to separate the hype from the actuality.

    'Multiculturalism' as an ideology and organising principle has enabled precepts of Islam to flourish. But it goes deeper than that. Its a deference to Islam, that takes it at face value, that doesn't challenge dawah in the broadest and narrowest sense, that is the issue. That is why ex Muslims are the boy pointing out the naked Emperor has no clothes, potentially. That is why Muslims are so terrified of, and so hateful and murderous towards rejecters and debunkers of Islam.

    But this can change. Things are changing. Attitudes are changing. A few years ago there was not even a space for ex Muslims to discuss and share their experiences. And whilst the 'Guardian' mentality of soft soaping Islam still persists, it is not the only tendency in society. People are waking up to Islams flaws, and eventually, the stories of ex Muslims will shape the debate.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #7 - September 26, 2010, 10:51 AM

    .
  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #8 - September 26, 2010, 11:13 AM


    I agree with you on the inanity of relativistic multiculturalism as a guiding principle of organisation for any society. The demographic issues I need to do more reading and research on.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #9 - September 26, 2010, 01:21 PM

    no doubt, the demographics 5 decades out are horrifying. as i said earlier, religions take considerably longer to weaken than a belief in real estate prices and total crashes have only happened via conquest (persia, sind, andalusia etc). i don't see islam weakening at all. the question is more of whether/when there will be actors within islam who'd be able to take on host political systems(in europe) or make islamic pan nationalism a reality etc.
  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #10 - September 26, 2010, 03:37 PM

    And the fact that apostates find it so difficult due to the lack of social support is keeping Muslims from leaving Islam in droves.

    'Multiculturalism' as an ideology and organising principle has enabled precepts of Islam to flourish. But it goes deeper than that. Its a deference to Islam, that takes it at face value, that doesn't challenge dawah in the broadest and narrowest sense, that is the issue. That is why ex Muslims are the boy pointing out the naked Emperor has no clothes, potentially. That is why Muslims are so terrified of, and so hateful and murderous towards rejecters and debunkers of Islam.

    Co-signed. Naipaul writes perceptively on the most successful globalisation job in history: Arab imperialism and how it mounts indigenous cultures the world over like a bison by convincing them to discard pre-Islamic modes of being as jahiliyya.

    Right on.


    A flurry of books have reached bookstands in recent years touching on this matter, the most readable of which by quite some margin is Mark Steyn's uproarious "America Alone". His conservative politics is not mine, but his dissection of the Islamoproblem is peerless as it is wildly funny. Consider that in 1950 there were three times as many people in Britain as in Iran. By 1995, the population of Iran had overtaken that of Britain and is now projected to be 50 per cent higher by 2050. Impressive considering that Iran's fertility is on the lower scale of the global Muslim average.

    When half the Muslim population are kept out of the workforce and reduced to the chattle-like function of baby incubators, when the West is aborting its progeny faster than Muslims can pop them out, when you import millions of such people whose fertility far outstrips one's own a demographic bomb goes tick, tick, tick. Can you hear it?

    I heard similar worries about Muslims inside of Europe and America.

    I took them to be ridiculous Churchie fear-mongering.

    Not to mention, many a Muslim would welcome such worries, as it will feed their fervor and feeling of superiority.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWiFRuRp6ok

    You should pay more consideration to:

    Will every child born to Muslim parents live for Islam? Will they be culturally sectarian?

    Remember how many here were born to Muslim immigrants in the West.


    I agree with you on the inanity of relativistic multiculturalism as a guiding principle of organisation for any society.

    "There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures."

    It promotes nonsensical appeasement and double standards. Surely, that's insane.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #11 - September 26, 2010, 04:08 PM

    .
  • Re: Islam's power
     Reply #12 - September 26, 2010, 04:17 PM

    The person who wants to be informed about the subject will have to do quite a bit more than watch YouTube videos. Some extensive reading on the topic is called for, concerning which the Guardian has a positive review of the lastest book to grapple with demographic decline:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/17/christopher-caldwell-immigration-islam

    Thanks for the link.

    Now I need to find "Reflections on the Revolution in Europe".


    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
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