Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #60 - September 27, 2010, 03:59 PM

Quote from: Ferrero on September 27, 2010, 01:48 PM
Halal and kosher slaughter is not anymore inhumane than typical slaugher practices. I doubt majority of people are jumping up and down because of 'inhumane killing' reasons but because 'Halal' is a 'Muslim' issue and Muslim issues should automatically be judged with distrust.

The UK Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) says that the method by which Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals and it should be banned immediately.

According to FAWC it can take up to two minutes for cattle to bleed to death, thus amounting to animal abuse.

Compassion in World Farming also supported the recommendation saying "We believe that the law must be changed to require all animals to be stunned before slaughter."

Some people do care about the cruelty that is caused in the preparation of their food. The science tells us that the slitting of the throat of a live animal causes much suffering as the animal slowly bleeds to death, just to ensure the blood is drained out. Why? Because of superstitious believe that eating blood is offensive to god.

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Slit it's jugular, the animal loses consciousness nearly instanteously and then rest is history.

If you know a person who had to be killed, for what ever reason, would you recommend their throat be slit and left to bleed to death or would probably go for something a little more humane? Maybe the axiom - "Do onto others..." comes to mind.

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how'd you think people killed their lifestuck before stunning became the norm?

You say before stunning became available people killed their animals in that way as some sort of justification to continue a barbaric practice today. So why not just bring back slavery, or child labour? Thats how it was done back then. That's how we got our work done back then; afterall even scripture recommends it.

We advance as as a race and leave behind the despicable practices of the dark ages. And slaughter of animals using halal/kosher methods is unacceptable in an ethical, caring, advanced society. Hence that is why non-Muslms should care about the source of their food.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #61 - September 27, 2010, 04:00 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 27, 2010, 03:00 PM
Hands up if you wuv Peter Singer (whom God preserve):

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #62 - September 27, 2010, 04:02 PM

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #63 - September 27, 2010, 04:02 PM

@ ghazali

Confucius:
"What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #64 - September 27, 2010, 04:04 PM

Quote from: DH on September 27, 2010, 03:31 PM
A "conspiracy mindset" is perfectly appropriate where there are good reasons to suspect a conspiracy - eg big business's long record of shady and immoral practices like sneaking GM food into the food chain.

For the same reason: It's cheaper.

Quote from: DH on September 27, 2010, 03:31 PM
The writer below goes on to explain that production has been turned over to halal to meet MUSLIM DEMAND.

Yes. Indeed. But we were talking about the supermarkets not the producers. The supermarkets don't pander to muslims if they sell halal meat without telling anyone that it is halal meat. No muslim will know that it is halal meat, so where is the pandering? They sell halal meat because that's what they can buy on the market for the best conditions.

The producers don't sell halal meet to "pander" to anyone, either. They follow market rules. There's over a billion muslims on the world. And they happen to like Lamp a lot more than non-muslims. Me, personally, I find Lamb disgusting. So, it is natural that production of lamb meat will follow what the big part of the lamb meat market demands.

Quote from: DH on September 27, 2010, 03:31 PM
Or maybe Muslims are simply better informed about such things.

What is still unanswered is the question regarding any legitimate objections to halal meat by non-muslims. There are no legitimate objections regarding animal protection. We have learned that so far. If there are religious or other cultural objections, I suppose no one would mind anyone creating some sort of organization that offers certification of non-halal meat. I do however doubt that there is a big market for meat specifically labelled as "non-halal".

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #65 - September 27, 2010, 04:09 PM

Quote from: a.ghazali on September 27, 2010, 03:59 PM
The UK Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) says that the method by which Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals and it should be banned immediately.

There are different methods of halal slaughter. It seems that in New Zealand meat is also certified as halal if the animal had been stunned before killing. I know that this is true for Germany.

If you buy halal meat (of mammals) produced in Germany, you can be sure that the animal had been stunned before killing, because the law only allows exceptions based on religious reasons when the meat produced is guaranteed to be consumed by a person who personally has religious requirements regarding the slaughter method.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #66 - September 27, 2010, 04:12 PM

Quote from: Ferrero on September 27, 2010, 03:08 PM
Slit it's jugular, the animal loses consciousness nearly instanteously and then rest is history.

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Sharia law expressly forbids knocking the animal out with a bolt gun, as is usual in British slaughterhouses. Instead, it must be sentient when its throat is cut, and the blood allowed to drip from the carcass while a religious phrase in praise of Allah is recited.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1313303/Britain-goes-halal---tells-public.html

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PETA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals - has made videos of ritual halal slaughtering which show animals convulsed in pain as they take up to three minutes to die.

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-229-3784.htm

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In 2003, Government advisory body the Farm Animal Welfare Council published a report declaring that the halal method of killing ‘would inevitably trigger a barrage of sensory information to the brain in a sensible (conscious) animal’.
Experts who contributed to the report concluded that ‘such a massive injury would result in very significant pain and distress in the period before insensibility supervenes’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1313303/Britain-goes-halal---tells-public.html

I am very much against Halal slaughtering and wish that it would be banned in Denmark. I would never knowingly buy or consume it and no you cannot make killing an animal completely pain and distressfree, but you can do your utmost to minimize the pain and distress, i.e. stun or anaesthetize them.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #67 - September 27, 2010, 04:18 PM

Quote from: tabun on September 27, 2010, 03:25 PM
whats a painless death??

Well, I could tell ya but I don't want to bore the rest of 'em yet again.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #68 - September 27, 2010, 04:29 PM

So, the best tactic to paint halal and kosher slaughter in a negative light is to get the most atrocious figure and use that to represent the whole procedure Starving the brain of oxygen in an effective manner will not cause animals to suffer for 2-3 minutes.

http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/setting_the_record_straight_on_kosher_slaughter
EEG study of brain activity comparing ritual killing v stunning
http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halalstudy.htm
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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #69 - September 27, 2010, 04:33 PM

a
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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #70 - September 27, 2010, 04:36 PM

The methods were sound. Criticise them, not the authors. Of course Jews and Muslims are people who are going to have a vested interest in investigating halal and kosher slaughter.
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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #71 - September 27, 2010, 04:39 PM

pls do

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #72 - September 27, 2010, 04:48 PM

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #73 - September 27, 2010, 05:03 PM

Quote from: Ferrero on September 27, 2010, 01:07 PM
I can see how consumers of halal only meat would have an issue with how animals are slaughtered but how would it matter to non-halal consumers? Please tell me your qualms are more than just a bunch of religious words.

I'm actually allergic to Islam and would appreciate it if they listed Islam in the ingredients so I know not to buy it.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #74 - September 27, 2010, 05:06 PM

All very very interesting. As a meat eater, my only concern is that the creatures I eat have, where possible, had as painless a death as possible.
In pursuit of this laudable aim, the designers of the machinery made to kill and prepare chickens came up with the following solution. I know this, by the way, because I used to supervise the installation and commissioning of chicken blast-freezers in one of my erstwhile incarnations.

Anyway, as I was recollecting, the chucks, which had been reared in fairly hot conditions were first fasted (ie starved) to empty their gut and then transferred to cage lorries to be transported to slaughter. They necessarily chilled on the way there and were thus stiff and easy to unload and hang, feet up, onto hook carousels which first of all took their heads through the electrocution bath. Then, suitably stunned, they were fed thro' the neck-breaking rollers to actually kill them humanely. Then they were sent thro' the throat-slitter blades so that the meat was whiter after bleeding (not so that any sort of god might be offended if the finished product contained blood or not.)
After that the carcasses had various augers thrust up various parts of their anatomy to remove guts, organs and necks, some of which rejoined them on the packing line, though not necessarily (or often) their own.
Now and again a bird would manage to lift it's head and neck clear of the stunner, the rollers and the throat slitters and so, to prevent live birds being subjected to the horrors of the augers whilst still alive, a bored young girl with a stanley knife was positioned to intercept them at the start of the bleeding trough.
This, my friends, is the reality of 'humane' chicken slaughter in the UK. I just thought it might stimulate a more realistic discussion.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #75 - September 27, 2010, 05:14 PM

Bison, still waiting for you to discredit the methods of investigation, preferably without the melodramatic language.
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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #76 - September 27, 2010, 05:18 PM

.
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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #77 - September 27, 2010, 06:33 PM

Thought experiment:

A muslim butcher works in a slaughterhouse. The slaughterhouse does not intend to produce halal meat. The butcher secretly mumbles the name of Allah whenever he kills an animal (The animals are all stunned before killing).

Would you see any problem with "halal meat" being sold without labelling in such a case?

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #78 - September 27, 2010, 06:36 PM

No. There's a bit more to halal than mumbling the name Allah in the same room as a slaughtered animal, so there would be no need to label such meat halal.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #79 - September 27, 2010, 06:48 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on September 27, 2010, 06:36 PM
No. There's a bit more to halal than mumbling the name Allah in the same room as a slaughtered animal, so there would be no need to label such meat halal.

For example?

As far as the animal being conscious is concerned, this doesn't seem to be an absolute requirement, because the lamb we are discussing here has been killed while unconscious.

As far as killing by letting out blood is concerned, I found that this method is used in non-halal slaughter as well. A major blood vessel is cut and then the next step only follows when most blood has left the body.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #80 - September 27, 2010, 06:53 PM

Meat cannot strictly be halal if it is stunned. Many Butchers where I live, have signs that clearly states that the animal was not stunned.

According to Muhammad the animal must be standing when the throat is slit. From Sahih Muslim 7:3032 - According to the Sunnah of the Prophet a camel must be made to stand up festered and then sacrificed. It must not be sacrificed kneeling down.

If the animal is stunned then 1) it would not be able to stand up and 2) the blood would not flow out fully as is the intention.

The prayer is of no consequence as its just a load of impotent words. What is of importance the the treatment of the animal.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #81 - September 27, 2010, 06:58 PM

Well, then it is unstrictly halal.

Obviously, a lot of meat is sold as and accepted and bought as halal by muslims even though the animal was stunned before killing. It is certainly the case with the NZ lamb we are talking about here. The only thing which makes it halal is the muslim butcher, the prayer and the non-touching of non-halal meat.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #82 - September 27, 2010, 07:01 PM

Halal meat is supposed to be drained of blood, as is kosher. That's why muslims are able to eat kosher meat, but not ordinary meat.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #83 - September 27, 2010, 07:02 PM

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #84 - September 27, 2010, 07:03 PM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 27, 2010, 06:42 AM
Abolish kosher and halal rituals ASAP and tell any cleric that objects with my compliments to go to hell. What an irredeemably disgusting practice.

For the intelligent reader curious about the meat industry, I enthusiastically recommend Peter Singer's "Animal Liberation", a work of uncommonly high merit in a commonly misunderstood subject. Another more elegantly crafted work on the ethics of food was never written.

Who is Peter Singer? The finest moral philosopher alive.

http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Liberation-Peter-Singer/dp/0060011572

Does Peter Singer advocate being a vegetarian instead? or how does he propose meat should be made available?

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #85 - September 27, 2010, 07:09 PM

Peter Singer advocates Vegetarianism on many levels. He is a vegetarian.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #86 - September 27, 2010, 07:31 PM

q
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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #87 - September 27, 2010, 07:33 PM

Fuck's sake, you're not writing a period drama.
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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #88 - September 27, 2010, 07:34 PM

How do we know that plants don't have feelings MAB?
I agree that to a large extent vegeterianism makes sense, but why is the line drawn at plants? perhaps we should only eat fruits and nuts that fall off trees without our intervention? After all, plants are being killed too.

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Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
Reply #89 - September 27, 2010, 07:47 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on September 27, 2010, 07:01 PM
Halal meat is supposed to be drained of blood, as is kosher.

But normal slaughter in a Western slaughterhouse also includes draining of blood.
See http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/371756/meat-processing/50338/Slaughtering?anchor=ref501751 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exsanguination

Quote from: Cheetah on September 27, 2010, 07:01 PM
That's why muslims are able to eat kosher meat, but not ordinary meat.

Well, I have heard that differently. I have been told that Muslims are not allowed to eat kosher meat because the meat was slaughtered calling the name of a different god because today's Jews don't follow their original religion.

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