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Theme Changer

 Topic: Are vegetarians really ethical?

 (Read 18826 times)
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  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #30 - September 29, 2010, 03:15 PM

    Note my correction. I'm talking about veggies that berate others about their weird lifestyle. Those niggas are famous and renowned for things other than their vegetarianism.

    And you forgot to mention Hitler.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #31 - September 29, 2010, 03:16 PM

    OK I noted it after posting!

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #32 - September 29, 2010, 03:17 PM

    Do you have any examples of Vegetarians that berate others?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #33 - September 29, 2010, 03:17 PM

    You, mount-a-bison, my cousin vinnie

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #34 - September 29, 2010, 03:27 PM

    Berate? - Moi?

    Is putting forward a viewpoint now considered, berating? If I have I sincerely apologise.

    But my only intention is to put forward my view on animals, against a backdrop of views that seem to not give animals the worth I think they deserve.

    I'm not trying to force anyone to become vegetarian. I'm simply making points to add to the debate on animals though against the views of the majority here. Its about debating an issue I hold dear.

    I've never consciously tried to berate anyone. So I take back any offence I may have caused you.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #35 - September 29, 2010, 03:27 PM

    Actually, truth be told, most of the vegans/vegetarians I've met have been too (excluding the straight-edgers), but I still think their ideology is grounded in decadent bourgeois ethical concerns.

    Most I have come across are boring too, but thats another thing.    

    Whether or not its a bourgeouis, upper class, working class concern, its irrelevent.  

    I could label animal rights and against cruelty compaigns as decadent bourgeois concerns if I wanted too, but it shouldnt affect how we concern ourselves over it being a moral issue.  

    Sounds like an appeal to authority in reverse to me Smiley

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #36 - September 29, 2010, 03:36 PM

    This is an interesting question because it's not easy to answer. It is assumed that prevention of pain is the biggest ethical concern


    Vegetarianism goes far deeper than just prevention of pain:
    - It is concerned with the right to a full life of every living being
    - It realises that on average 20lbs of grains are required to produce 1lbs of meat
    - To produce 1 lb of beef requires 12,000 gallons of water. Only 108lbs of water is required for 1lb of grain.
    - The rate of species extinction (animals, insects, marine, plants) has exploded in the last century as a result of clearing of millions of acres of rain forests and jungles throughout the world as a result to animal rearing and the need to produce animal feed.
    - Pollution from animal farms have negatively affected lands, rivers and seas globally resulting in increased phosphates, nitrates, decreased dissolved oxygen, increased temperature and increased turbidity
    - A 2006 UN report assessed that meat and livestock industry contributes about 9% of total anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions, including 37% of methane and 65% of nitrous oxide emissions.
    - Livestock in New Zealand represents up to half of the country’s greenhouse gas emission
    - The production of protein from grain-fed animals requires eight times as much fossil-fuel energy as the production of plant protein

    Also meat is not healthy. Our bodies are not designed to eat meat. Anatomically we are herbivores. Although most humans are ‘omnivores’ in so far as they eat meat and plant foods, the anatomical and physiologic make-up of the human body points clearly towards a dominantly plant-based diet as the ideal for health.

    The main causes of many major illnesses today are as a direct result of meat eating - many cancers, heart disease, diabeties, strokes.

    Quote
    and it is also assumed that being a carnivore is a bad in itself.


    It can be considered bad for humans because of the many negative effects resulting from our consumption; On our health, on the planet, on so many uninvolved species, on the quality of life of the actual animal, on the many human affected because wanton waste of a few.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #37 - September 29, 2010, 03:36 PM

    i wonder if anyone thinks of an eagle or a lion as evil instead of just brute nature?


    We have to realise the nature of every living creature is different. Carnivores have their nature as do humans. Humans however try to change their nature and in so doing badly affect not just the animals but our entire planet and even our own species in the long run.

    The majority of humans could not stomach the task of killing animals for their own plate. Which is the basic nature of any carnivore or omnivore. We do however depend on a few individuals who could stomach the task either because they have been conditioned to do so from an early age or they genuinely have no problem with slaughter. Just as you would have murderers who would have not problem killing another human, there will always be those individuals hardened sufficiently to have no problem killing animals, but that does not make it right nor part of our species' general nature.

    It's like Muhammad telling his followers 'You may not like a thing that is good for you, but Allah knows best'. This was to convince those who were not keen on going into battle to kill fellow humans to get them to do so. He conditioned them to do a thing they were reluctant to do by not only giving incentives but also claiming divine instructions.

    Do a little test. Put a young lion in a room with a bunny and an apple. Which do you think he will eventually rush to eat? Repeat with a child in the room. Which do you think she will rush to eat? It is not in our nature to eat animals. However when well packaged and the horrors of slaughter and blood are hidden, we eventually become immune to the fact that such food is not meant for our bodies.

    Just look at the recent videos posted in the 'Supermarket halal meat..' thread. So many were clamoring for just the image of the slaughter to be hidden. Why? They will gladly eat the meat but they cannot stomach seeing the source of the meat.

    Our nature is not that of lions or eagles. And why should we change it when the effects are so detrimental to both ourselves and our planet.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #38 - September 29, 2010, 03:37 PM

    Do we ourselves have a responsility to do nature's work? should we keep the great circle of life and death going by actively participating in the death of others and then letting oneself become food once oneself has died? The key consideration here is of course nature above all else - the biosphere must be kept balanced therefore not too many nor too little carnivores can be allowed.


    We do not have to do nature's work but we should try and remain in synch with nature. However what man is doing today is adversely affecting nature - to our own peril. We are destroying much of our natural world just to satisfy our tongues. Countless species of life are now extinct because of man's encroachment on their natural habitats much of it resulting from the meat industry.

    Man's meat eating is not a natural part of the circle of life and death. Man has to artificially breed the animals we consume. This is not natural. This process alone is a shame on mankind. To either artificially inseminate sentient beings or have their bodies braced while being raped from behind; having to go through this process time and time again with no choice in the matter; then having the off-springs they've nurtured taken away to be fattened up for meat in a matter of months, is no way near the natural circle of life.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #39 - September 29, 2010, 03:39 PM

    Or, is the best road to abstain from causing all undue pain altogether - to assume, in good faith, that we know what animals can feel, that what they feel is a moral abomination and while the highest moral good is being sought after, let the delicate balance of the biosphere be damned if it cannot protect the lives of the innocent. It is a noble sentiment but I don't know if it works.


    Yes it can work. Contrary to your opinion that the delicate biosphere will be damned if we were to abstain from animal slaughter, the reverse is true. To protect our fragile eco system we need to considerably reduce our demands for meat. And in so doing 20 times more food and hundreds times more water would be available to feed the peoples of the planet.

    Quote
    I don't know what works as an answer to this question - it is yet to be satisfactorily answered.


    The thing is, the question has been satisfactorily answered, at least to some. The answers are all out but there must be a desire to look. And most of those answers point to a vegetarian lifestyle for the betterment of our planet. However the key players with the required clout have their interests vested elsewhere or are simply apathetic.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #40 - September 29, 2010, 03:43 PM

    Berate? - Moi?

    Is putting forward a viewpoint now considered, berating? If I have I sincerely apologise.

    But my only intention is to put forward my view on animals, against a backdrop of views that seem to not give animals the worth I think they deserve.

    I'm not trying to force anyone to become vegetarian. I'm simply making points to add to the debate on animals though against the views of the majority here. Its about debating an issue I hold dear.

    I've never consciously tried to berate anyone. So I take back any offence I may have caused you.




    I don't think you've berated anyone  mate. You've made good points, even if I don't agree with it all, its definitely given (omnivorous) food for thought.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #41 - September 29, 2010, 03:43 PM

    I'm not sure how I feel about vegetarianism. I don't think I can justify causing undue suffering to animals when there are viable alternatives. I haven't really had any exposure to the process of slaughtering animals - I've been meaning to look into for a while now, but keep putting it off. Probably because I fear I won't like what I find. At the moment, meat to me is just something that is served on a plate with other foods, and I don't really know or care where it's come from or how it's been acquired.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #42 - September 29, 2010, 03:45 PM

    I don't know what works as an answer to this question - it is yet to be satisfactorily answered.

    What are your philosophical/ethical thoughts on vegetarianism?  Like I said earlier I think its the right thing to do, but love meat too much.  Actually I am surprised you & your missus havent seriously considered it before? btw where is she these days?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #43 - September 29, 2010, 03:48 PM

    I'm not sure how I feel about vegetarianism. I don't think I can justify causing undue suffering to animals when there are viable alternatives. I haven't really had any exposure to the process of slaughtering animals - I've been meaning to look into for a while now, but keep putting it off. Probably because I fear I won't like what I find. At the moment, meat to me is just something that is served on a plate with other foods, and I don't really know or care where it's come from or how it's been acquired.


     Roll Eyes

    you and i need to discuss this. darn it. Tongue

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #44 - September 29, 2010, 03:49 PM

    I'm not sure how I feel about vegetarianism. I don't think I can justify causing undue suffering to animals when there are viable alternatives. I haven't really had any exposure to the process of slaughtering animals - I've been meaning to look into for a while now, but keep putting it off. Probably because I fear I won't like what I find. At the moment, meat to me is just something that is served on a plate with other foods, and I don't really know or care where it's come from or how it's been acquired.

    Same here, I try not to think about it because I dont like what my neurons are gonna tell me.

    At the end of the day, we dont have to eat as much meat as we do.  If that means less innocent animals are butchered, how is that a bad thing?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #45 - September 29, 2010, 03:52 PM

    Roll Eyes

    you and i need to discuss this. darn it. Tongue


    No, you are too boring.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #46 - September 29, 2010, 04:00 PM

    Like I said earlier I think its the right thing to do, but love meat too much.  Actually I am surprised you & your missus havent seriously considered it before?


    Islame, I felt the same as you before I stopped eating meat, at age 19. I liked meat too much to give it up. But eventually my conscience got the better of me and gradually I cut out one type of meat after another.

    I have no problem with meat eaters, all my family eats meat, they sit at the table with me and eat and I have no problem. I discuss it when the topic arises but try never consciously push it on anyone.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #47 - September 29, 2010, 04:02 PM

    I don't think you've berated anyone  mate. You've made good points, even if I don't agree with it all, its definitely given (omnivorous) food for thought.


    Its good to agree to disagree. I defend your right to disagree.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #48 - September 29, 2010, 04:05 PM

    but try never consciously push it on anyone.

    if you believe its cruel & wrong, then you should speak up, no matter what anyone says

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #49 - September 29, 2010, 04:05 PM

    says who?

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #50 - September 29, 2010, 04:06 PM

    says me, particularly as sheep & cows cant speak for themselves  Tongue

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #51 - September 29, 2010, 04:08 PM

    oh, well if YOU say it.....then it is right. Smiley

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #52 - September 29, 2010, 04:53 PM

    What if they tasted like shite? Tongue

    Make a nice sauce to go with 'em.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #53 - September 29, 2010, 05:01 PM

    Correction: activist vegetarians/vegans

    There are plenty of people who don't eat meat as a personal choice (or religious stance) but don't foam at the mouth about it.

    Vegetarianism goes far deeper than just prevention of pain:
    - It is concerned with the right to a full life of every living being
    - It realises that on average 20lbs of grains are required to produce 1lbs of meat
    - To produce 1 lb of beef requires 12,000 gallons of water. Only 108lbs of water is required for 1lb of grain.
    - The rate of species extinction (animals, insects, marine, plants) has exploded in the last century as a result of clearing of millions of acres of rain forests and jungles throughout the world as a result to animal rearing and the need to produce animal feed.
    - Pollution from animal farms have negatively affected lands, rivers and seas globally resulting in increased phosphates, nitrates, decreased dissolved oxygen, increased temperature and increased turbidity
    - A 2006 UN report assessed that meat and livestock industry contributes about 9% of total anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions, including 37% of methane and 65% of nitrous oxide emissions.
    - Livestock in New Zealand represents up to half of the country’s greenhouse gas emission
    - The production of protein from grain-fed animals requires eight times as much fossil-fuel energy as the production of plant protein

    Also meat is not healthy. Our bodies are not designed to eat meat. Anatomically we are herbivores. Although most humans are ‘omnivores’ in so far as they eat meat and plant foods, the anatomical and physiologic make-up of the human body points clearly towards a dominantly plant-based diet as the ideal for health.

    The main causes of many major illnesses today are as a direct result of meat eating - many cancers, heart disease, diabeties, strokes.

    It can be considered bad for humans because of the many negative effects resulting from our consumption; On our health, on the planet, on so many uninvolved species, on the quality of life of the actual animal, on the many human affected because wanton waste of a few.


    There are so many urban myths, out and out lies, lack of a proper education, misconceptions, debunked anti-meat propaganda, etc in that post I don't know where to start. You are in need of complete reprogramming young 'un.  The real problem is too many people.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #54 - September 29, 2010, 05:22 PM

    If eating meat is bad, eating carnivores is less bad than eating herbivores :S

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #55 - September 29, 2010, 05:24 PM

    Or, maybe, if humans started eating carnivores the net amount of "deaths for feeding" on planet earth will even decrease :|

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #56 - September 29, 2010, 05:25 PM


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #57 - September 29, 2010, 07:22 PM


    I don't think you've berated anyone  mate. You've made good points, even if I don't agree with it all, its definitely given (omnivorous) food for thought.


    Yeah-- he doesn't berate anyone, he just wants to put people out of work, bust unions, wreck families, criminalize more shit in a country with the world's highest incarceration rate, all in pursuit of his radical animal liberation agenda. So long as he doesn't berate people on this forum it's all peachy.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #58 - September 29, 2010, 07:34 PM

    Screw that i'm gonna eat a hamburger.

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #59 - September 29, 2010, 07:35 PM

     Afro Saathiya's best post ever.

    fuck you
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