To be fair, Tibun and Prince Spinoza also made good points about the fact that most Muslims don't follow most of the bad bits of Islam.
I don’t think it was ever in doubt, in this thread at least. Most of us here know Muslims personally, were one once upon a time. I still have close friends who consider themselves Muslim. Fair enough, they’d be the first to admit they suck at being Muslim, and I’d agree with them, but they still label themselves ‘Muslim’ I’m not attacking those people when I attack Islam. If they want to throw themselves in front of the bus, and get offended for no reason, that’s their business. I’ll attack them too if they really want me to, if I must. It’s my duty as a human being to openly oppose many fundamental tenets of Islam. They are welcome to join me, as Muslims. I respect honesty and integrity above most things. I’d respect theirs equally.
Despite Tabun saying that we just ‘don’t get it’, we were never actually disagreeing anyway as far as I can tell. We were speaking cross purposes. The only contention raised was the fact that the biggest moderate voices in the public arena are not being honest about Islam yet claim to represent it. if they are indeed moderate Muslims, then by the very definition of the term, they are cutting out parts of Islam for one reason or another. I just wish they’d either admit and expose the parts of Islam they don’t follow and explain their honest reasons why they think these particular parts are bad,
while they have the stage, without needing to be pressed about it. Either that, or just stay out of the global debate altogether. They already have the right to practice their religion. They are already protected under the law. They have the luxury of a new-age pick’n’mix version of Islam, they are welcome to their superstitions and stupid beliefs, and have the right to build tax-free Mosques and send their kids to Islamic schools. They should just shut the fuck up and get on with it.
Bringing a certain facet of Islam into question has very little to do with people who call themselves Muslim and at the same time don’t bother with those specific parts of Islam. That’s an issue they’ll have to take up with Allah on the Last day. It’s waste of time to worry about hurting the feelings of these people. It dilutes the issue. It ends up a stalemate. We never leave square one and Islam remains untouchable because of the fluffy bunny day-tripper so-called Muslims that everybody rushes to defend. Honestly, say you’re a moderate progressive Muslim, and you’re an instant tragic hero of the story. What have they actually done though? If everyone used the same amount of calories they spend bickering over the rights to build a fucking stack of bricks in NY and instead spent them on tearing down the obstacles Muslim females face if they want to become actual women and humans, it would be fantastic. People are defending the wrong bloody Muslims. Their priorities are all wrong.
I think the biggest problem right now for anyone criticising religion in any kind of manner is getting past the smokescreen of day-tripper followers. People have the luxury in this day and age to only dip their toes into particular faiths as part of an ‘alternative lifestyle choice’, without jumping in with both feet. It makes it much harder to attack the fundamental issues of the dogma overall, and the very real and present problems it creates. You’re attacking the fundies, and you're attacking the barbarism in the scripture being kept alive, and you’re also attacking someone’s sweet old neighbour or grandma by default, even though you were not. Why does religion get a free pass? Why are we so willing to criticise members of other ideologies, political parties, voters who vote a certain way, people who show allegiance with certain ways of life or constitutions we don’t like much, but religion still remains a respected institution that gets special treatment?
A Muslim beats his disobedient wife, as Allah prescribed, as per what he was directed to do according to divine revelations of the Noble Quran. A daughter is brutally mutilated or killed by a family who honour Islam beyond mere lip service. Countries run under Islamic law stone rape victims to death, routinely hang gays, give 100 lashes to young lovers. There are millions of child brides in Islamic nations. Millions. Yet there is no end of people running to the defence of Islam when the faith is brought into question all because someone ‘feelings’ might get hurt.
A tea bagger spells a fucking sign wrong and they get called all the cunts under the sun. They shouldn’t be allowed to vote, allowed to breed, allowed to pollute the gene pool. People have a good laugh at tea baggers, nobody has a problem generalising then. Why?
If religion was just a person to person deeply held personal belief about life or the world, or hopes and dreams for their spiritual self, or personal preference or taste, and was unobtrusive and harmless to everyone else, it wouldn't be worthy of so much open criticism. But it's not just that is it? It's a collective, often hysterical and irrational mass belief and school of thought that has so much stranglehold on the world that it affects millions of lives every day whether they agree with it or not, whether they want it to or not. It affects things from who gets to govern the most powerful secular (apparently) nation on earth, to if homosexuals deserve to live or die on the other side of the planet.
When the religions of the world offer themselves up as a complete system of life - law, policy, social, economical, educational, philosophical, even military, and with pretty much the sole aim of converting and controlling the masses - we can criticise them as thoroughly, shamelessly and ruthlessly as we can any constitution or political ideology, or any collection of ideas and principles. As soon as we can’t, we can no longer consider ourselves a democracy.
Topic: Should Americans Fear Islam?