IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.

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IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
OP - October 08, 2010, 11:01 PM

A pretty interesting debate:

For the Motion:
zeba Khan
Maajid Nawaz

Against the Motion:
Ayan Hirsi Ali
Douglas Murray

Link with video:
http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/past-debates/islam/

Full transcript is also available.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #1 - October 08, 2010, 11:09 PM

WOW! That's definitely one to watch.

I wish there was an orthodox Muslim scholar in the 'for the motion' side as well; and a less reactionary critic of Islam in the 'against the motion' side. Nevertheless, this debate sounds interesting.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #2 - October 08, 2010, 11:39 PM

Yeah, this looks like fun. Will watch it later, thanks for posting.

Interesting poll results:

Pre-Debate Poll Results
41%For | 25% Against | 34%

Post Debate Poll Results
36% For | 55% Against | 9%

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #3 - October 08, 2010, 11:56 PM

Damn, usually the poll doesn't change a whole lot in IQ2 debates

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #4 - October 09, 2010, 12:01 AM

i VOTE Zeba Khan is hot.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #5 - October 09, 2010, 12:30 AM

Ayan Hirsi Ali is a good speaker, despite English being her third language.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #6 - October 09, 2010, 12:34 AM

To be honest my heart goes out to Muslim moderates. Their humanity shows though. Sometimes people think that they are being disingenuous, but they are trying to forge something beautiful out of a imperfect source.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #7 - October 09, 2010, 01:12 AM

Quote
To be honest my heart goes out to Muslim moderates. Their humanity shows though. Sometimes people think that they are being disingenuous, but they are trying to forge something beautiful out of a imperfect source.

A passing question tho who are the mo*something*lites at 36:12??

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #8 - October 09, 2010, 01:15 AM

I just dont understand how anyone want to "reform" any religion. If it's wrong, learn from it and move on. There's no point in clinging to some false dogma.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #9 - October 09, 2010, 01:22 AM

@Saathiya
Sense of purposeless and a sense of being lied too.
really would frustrate anyone, it is being in the forest of denial.

BTW did he play the Arabic card ??

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #10 - October 09, 2010, 01:26 AM

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a fraud.
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #11 - October 09, 2010, 01:28 AM

@MAB
Did u watch it already?

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #12 - October 09, 2010, 01:32 AM

No
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #13 - October 09, 2010, 01:36 AM

No I wasn't saying otherwise.

But a really nice debate .

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #14 - October 09, 2010, 01:47 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on October 09, 2010, 01:26 AM
Ayaan Hirsi Ali: A moderately good specimen of the torchbearers of the Enlightenment. I wanna squeeze her.

Murray Douglas: An irredeemable quack and vulgarian of the necon variety. Out with the bum!

Maajid Nawaz: A fairly likable Muslim who is exceptionally good at compartmentalisation. Very cute.

Zeba Khan: Supremely fuckable. But who?

Agreed about all except that I think Ayaan sides with the Christian reactionary, right-wing nutjobs too much. I have heard her many times almost advocating Christianity as an alternative moral framework.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #15 - October 09, 2010, 01:50 AM

I think this thread should be pinned the debate actually address most of the questions , started here on COEM.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #16 - October 09, 2010, 01:58 AM

I think she's a neocon.
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #17 - October 09, 2010, 01:59 AM

zeba khan: "it may be surprising to you but the headmaster at my mosque was a non-veiled lady"

well that is the whole point ms. khan. The very fact that this IS surprising is the problem of Islam. The surprise is not one created by culture but dogmatic dictum.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #18 - October 09, 2010, 02:03 AM

The fundamental problem with this debate I think is that both sides were pretty much starting from the same point, that is humanism, but with different variations. They should have invited on some " fundamentalist" Islamics to really be a proper debate. And by that I mean a clash. I think that the opposition side could have said you know what we support your version of Islam 100% and no one would have batted an eyelash.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #19 - October 09, 2010, 02:11 AM

Quote
" fundamentalist" Islamics to really be a proper debate.

They are busy doing evaaal stuff
Quote
I think that the opposition side could have said you know what we support your version of Islam 100% and no one would have batted an eyelash

I beg to differ the opposition wanted to convey the message that Islam cant be reformed , while the other side says it could be done.
Personally I think it could, and it will . I am a bit hopeful but in order to do that some scriptures will simply have to mean different things , but again why the whole hassle dump it and go on. I believe its something to do with denial , frustration and self-identity.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #20 - October 09, 2010, 02:28 AM

Quote from: tabun on October 09, 2010, 02:11 AM
Personally I think it could, and it will . I am a bit hopeful but in order to do that some scriptures will simply have to mean different things , but again why the whole hassle dump it and go on. I believe its something to do with denial , frustration and self-identity.

I don't mind seeing the Muslims coming under intense pressure from all sides. The way I see it is, this debate is between the good cops (Maajid Nawaz etc) who say that Islam can be reformed, and the bad cops (Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Douglas Murray) who say that it can't. They are both needed to maintain the pressure on (political) Islam.

Also, you mention 'frustration'. Well, the West is justified to feel a sense of frustration at Islam's refusal and inability to be enlightened. It is the 21st century and young men born and bred in the West are choosing to kill their fellow citizens to please their invisible sky-daddy and advance the cause of political Islam.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #21 - October 09, 2010, 02:33 AM

Quote
Also, you mention 'frustration'. Well, the West is justified to feel a sense of frustration at Islam's refusal and inability to be enlightened. It is the 21st century and young men born and bred in the West are choosing to kill their own fellow citizens to please their invisible sky-daddy and advance the cause of political Islam.

Agreed!!
Some scriptures should be interpreted differently this will do wonders.

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #22 - October 09, 2010, 02:34 AM

I see.
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #23 - October 09, 2010, 02:36 AM

Quote
They are busy doing evaaal stuff

Mostly us, and mostly no. By fundamentalist I mean someone who believes that religious laws supersede "human laws". This doesn't mean that they are purely evil. Human beings are multi faceted and people with "evil" beliefs can do good things and "good" people can bad things.

Quote
I beg to differ the opposition wanted to convey the message that Islam cant be reformed , while the other side says it could be done.
Personally I think it could, and it will . I am a bit hopeful but in order to do that some scriptures will simply have to mean different things , but again why the whole hassle dump it and go on. I believe its something to do with denial , frustration and self-identity.

I think at the core of the controversy of the whole Islam dispute is that of literary criticism. In literary criticism there is no "correct" interpretation, just as there is no "correct" Islam. I believe that both sides are in reality looking from the view point, that is humanism, plurality, tolerance etc. One side argues for a humanistic side of Islam and another points out that there are non humanistic interpretation of Islam. This isn;t in reality a debate, but more a polite conversation among like minded people.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #24 - October 09, 2010, 02:41 AM

Now.
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #25 - October 09, 2010, 02:47 AM

Usually I find that most fascist ideologies don't like direct debate because it makes them look rather silly, but use indirect and personal pressure forms of argumentation. In public they use sound bite pronouncements to avoid their inhuman ideas picked apart, and when addressed directly resound to absurd ad homenms etc.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #26 - October 09, 2010, 02:55 AM

Quote from: deusvult on October 09, 2010, 02:36 AM
Mostly us, and mostly no. By fundamentalist I mean someone who believes that religious laws supersede "human laws". This doesn't mean that they are purely evil. Human beings are multi faceted and people with "evil" beliefs can do good things and "good" people can bad things.

I was just making a silly joke, yea I agree.
Quote
In literary criticism there is no "correct" interpretation, just as there is no "correct" Islam

I agree, but the side against the notion, say that by doing so they are not following true Islam.
It is unfortunately true and arrogant getting the other side directly on the defensive.
I think it did start out as a debate then ended by a reconcile between both parties, to "if the interpretation is peaceful so be it"
The fundamentalist wont reconcile to such.
I agree fundamentalists, should have accepted the invitation but that will lead to their demise, so nice work fundamentalists you live to fight another day .

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #27 - October 09, 2010, 02:56 AM

Quote from: deusvult on October 09, 2010, 02:03 AM
The fundamental problem with this debate I think is that both sides were pretty much starting from the same point, that is humanism, but with different variations. They should have invited on some " fundamentalist" Islamics to really be a proper debate. And by that I mean a clash. I think that the opposition side could have said you know what we support your version of Islam 100% and no one would have batted an eyelash.

I thought that too. If you are arguing whether Islam is good, then you need to bring in people who's moral principle 's have been defined by Islam itself & not filtered down & bastardisec by other manmade concepts like humanism

As they freely admitted they pick & choose so Islam was not put on the table, but their personal interpretation which is neither here nor there.

But I suppose this point was addressed by Douglas when he said the other Muslim scholars refused to turn up because they did not want Ayshan Ali to participate.

I loved it when they said if Islam was the religion of peace, then why did the audience have to walk through metal detectors at the start of the show

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #28 - October 09, 2010, 06:19 AM

wow i didnt think many people would actually watch this show.

what i liked about this debate is that it really showed a moderate muslim void that is greatly missing from the mainstream. having fools like zakir naik, anjum chaudry or even tariq ramadan really never gets anywhere. with them its always the victimization attitude followed by enforcing "islam is the answer" dogma with no need for reformation.

one thing i liked about maajid is that he admitted that aisha's marriage to mohammad wasn't a very ideal thing. gotta say this man has guts.

plus Zeba ..... well Shiʻite !!!

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Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
Reply #29 - October 09, 2010, 09:28 AM

Wow, the Muslim side got demolished.

What makes me roll my eyes is how Muslims seem to want to take credit for shit that you’re just supposed to do anyway. Brag about stuff a normal person just gets on with. “I’m peaceful” “I do not condone violence” “I raise my family” “My life has meaning” So? What the fuck do you want, a medal?

And pretty much all the apparently positive things the Muslim side talked about while trying to make the case for a religion of peace are things done despite or besides their religion, not because of their religion, sometimes even in direct conflict with explicit teachings, commandments and canonical rules of Islam.

Maajid Nawaz should have been put on the other side. He’s walking talking proof that Islam is not a religion of peace. He had the good sense to stop being a fuckhead and went for Islam-lite instead, take Islam in moderation as part of a balanced normal persons diet.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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