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 Topic: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.

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  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #30 - October 09, 2010, 11:44 AM

    Looks like this debate has sparked off a lively debate here. I will try and watch it over the weekend and join in!

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #31 - October 09, 2010, 11:49 AM
    "Islam is Peace" eh? While we are at it how about WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH also? Wink

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali: I like the way she can stay calm. She' not in your face like Murray or pretty like Zeba - but she puts her points across with finesse.

    Murray Douglas: The guy is pure gold dust. Witty intellectual as always. Great to see him squash the opponents like flies.

    Maajid Nawaz: Can't stand this guy - he just goes on and on as if people are interested in what he says. And rates himself as an equal to Murray.

    Zeba Khan: Cherry picked Muslim, probably the at best 0.1% of Muslims who seek knowledge, don't wear scarf, speak Hebrew, has prayed in a in synagogue - this IS EXCEPTIONAL STUFF LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!

    Glad to view the results. I think that’s how general meme perception of the market is right now: joe blogs doesn’t really know or care, but given some thought, they are wise enough to see through Islam. Good form.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #32 - October 09, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 09, 2010, 09:28 AM
    Wow, the Muslim side got demolished.

    What makes me roll my eyes is how Muslims seem to want to take credit for shit that you’re just supposed to do anyway. Brag about stuff a normal person just gets on with. “I’m peaceful” “I do not condone violence” “I raise my family” “My life has meaning” So? What the fuck do you want, a medal?



     Grin So true!

    Its like what Chris Rock says in that famous stand up show:

    Quote
    You know the worst thing about niggas? Niggas always want credit for some shit they supposed to do. A nigga will brag about some shit a normal man just does. A nigga will say some shit like, "I take care of my kids." You're supposed to, you dumb motherfucker! What kind of ignorant shit is that? "I ain't never been to jail!" What do you want, a cookie?! You're not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having motherfucker!


    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Chris_Rock

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #33 - October 09, 2010, 12:12 PM
    Yesss! Thats exactly what it reminded me of.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6-Wc0PDc4

    001_wub
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #34 - October 09, 2010, 12:21 PM
    Hah!

    "it ain't us, it's the media!"

     Cheesy
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #35 - October 09, 2010, 12:25 PM
     Grin
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #36 - October 09, 2010, 12:35 PM
    Legend Grin
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    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #37 - October 09, 2010, 03:33 PM
    "Put your money in the books !!"
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #38 - October 09, 2010, 03:47 PM
    I didn't know this debate was taking place otherwise I would've applied to be in the audience.  We need an "events" thread on here.

    I'm looking forward to watching it.
    .
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #39 - October 09, 2010, 03:52 PM
    Just realised the debate was in the US.  That would've made it slightly difficult for me to attend...  wacko
    .
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #40 - October 09, 2010, 05:36 PM
    Was I the only one stunned by Maajid's extravagant claim that the Eye-ranian revolution of '79 was a burlesque of Shia Islam because only the elusive Mahdi can establish an Islamic state? Did Khomeini  dismember Islamic theology out of all recognition to advance his power grab? Genuine question this. Like most of the murtadeen I was baptised into the Sunni gang of Allah's boys and so am woefully ignorant of the Shia school.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #41 - October 09, 2010, 06:57 PM
    Some Shia say that only mahdi can establish the true islamic state, khomenies bastard was just a prelude if u like.
    All I know is that the universe is a beautiful & complicated place. I think we are beautiful beings. Everyday I find something to marval at. I just hope I don't get burned in eternal torment because I miscalculated the truth level of a 7th Century camel salesman's feverish rantings. ~ BlackDog
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #42 - October 09, 2010, 07:44 PM
    Majid Nawaz said that the prophet sleeping with a 9 year is not good. Ok it might be the understatement of the century, but still to get a muslim to admit say that there prophet did something that is not good, well that a big step. I wonder if he secretly holds doubts about Islam Thinking hard
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  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #43 - October 09, 2010, 09:24 PM
    Lol, perhaps!
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  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #44 - October 10, 2010, 03:03 AM
    I have watched the debate now and can say it was excellent throughout. Afro
    Tabun is right that we have debated many of these points on this forum in various threads.  I do think Islam is NOT a religion of peace, but that's according to my own definition of 'Islam'.  Some people like Maajid Nawaaz might define Islam differently.  Hence, the real question should be, not whether Islam is a religion of peace, but whether Islam *today* is a religion of peace.  I think far too many Muslims today practise orthodox Islam and not secular, liberal Islam that Maajid Nawaz is promoting.  The secular, liberal Muslims are few and far between.  Maajid argued many times that the religious text should be contextualised, and that the prophet Mo should be seen as merely a man of his time; but unfortunately very few Muslims I know would admit that.  Most Muslims revere Mo as a perfect role model to be followed till the end of time.


    Quote from: HighOctane on October 09, 2010, 11:49 AM
    "Islam is Peace" eh? While we are at it how about WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH also? Wink

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali: I like the way she can stay calm. She' not in your face like Murray or pretty like Zeba - but she puts her points across with finesse.

    Agreed.  Ayaan's cool, calm, chilled-out composure, despite having constant death threats is quite impressive.  She does make her point quite articulately too. Afro


    Quote from: HighOctane on October 09, 2010, 11:49 AM
    Murray Douglas: The guy is pure gold dust. Witty intellectual as always. Great to see him squash the opponents like flies.

    Yeah, Douglas's debating skills are impressive too.

    Quote from: HighOctane on October 09, 2010, 11:49 AM
    Maajid Nawaz: Can't stand this guy - he just goes on and on as if people are interested in what he says. And rates himself as an equal to Murray.

    I can't bring myself to hate/bash Maajid Nawaz.  He is trying his best to make the world a better place using his skills and personality/background (as an ex-radical).  I just wish he was more influential within Islam.


    Quote from: HighOctane on October 09, 2010, 11:49 AM
    Zeba Khan: Cherry picked Muslim, probably the at best 0.1% of Muslims who seek knowledge, don't wear scarf, speak Hebrew, has prayed in a in synagogue - this IS EXCEPTIONAL STUFF LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!

    Agreed.  Zeba Khan is from a tiny minority of Muslims.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #45 - October 10, 2010, 09:29 AM
    Quote
    Some people like Maajid Nawaaz might define Islam differently.  Hence, the real question should be, not whether Islam is a religion of peace, but whether Islam *today* is a religion of peace.


    To be honest, the proposition of the debate was going to be a disadvantage for the advocates for Islam, because 'Islam is Peace' is not credible as a statement, put like that its only worthy for dawah-ganda. Even Maajid Naawaz and others like him have to admit that, even by their metric, Islam at this moment in time is both a religion of violence and peace, both contextually, and scripturally. I haven't watched the debate yet, but they might have been onto a loser to begin with.

    The real meat would have been a discussion between Ayaan, Douglas and some straight up Dawah spouting believing orthodox Muslims. Hell, I would love to see them debating someone like the moderate Mehdi 'All Kuffars have no intelligence and are like animals' Hasan.

    Maajid and (presumably) Zeba are also people that could do with debating those kinds of people.

    (I also like Maajid, I know he can be accused of being in denial, but everyone reaches their destination from different journeys, and he does good work)

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #46 - October 10, 2010, 10:18 AM
    Quote from: ateapotist on October 09, 2010, 01:47 AM
    Agreed about all except that I think Ayaan sides with the Christian reactionary, right-wing nutjobs too much.  I have heard her many times almost advocating Christianity as an alternative moral framework. Roll Eyes

    That's because the right are more willing to listen to people like Ayaan whereas a large proportion of the left just feel awkward discussing Islam at all.  The left can't say anything beyond "Islam is a peaceful religion" and "The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful".  They can't get past these cliches and discuss the complexities of Islam and Muslims.

    Also, Ayaan has made it clear that she's against all monotheistic religions (including Christianity), but because Christianity has already gone through it's enlightenment and Christian majority societies are more liberal, progressive and tolerant than Muslim majority socities, she concludes that Muslims would be better off if they adopted the religious framework of Christianity.
    .
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #47 - October 10, 2010, 10:21 AM
    Quote
    That's because the right are more willing to listen to people like Ayaan whereas a large proportion of the left just feel awkward discussing Islam at all.

     

    I've said that before. The fact that parts of the Left are so hostile to critiques of Islam from former Muslims is a great failing. And its something that Ayaan Hirsi Ali had to deal with from the start. When she first came to prominence she was an elected representative from one of the Left wing parties in the Netherlands. She started to talk about religion, and those aspects of Islam that were damaging Muslim women, and she effectively got squeezed out of the party, and Left wing circles because of that.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #48 - October 10, 2010, 12:48 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 10, 2010, 09:29 AM
    Hell, I would love to see them debating someone like the moderate Mehdi 'All Kuffars have no intelligence and are like animals' Hasan.

    Maajid and (presumably) Zeba are also people that could do with debating those kinds of people.


    I can't see this happening. They are united by the gray umbrella of Islam, but not fractionated enough to spark such division on an open forum, I think. Plus, if they did, majority Muslims would probably be against them. Though, I'd love to see it, and it would be great for it to happen. Hmm ... *thinks of possibility*

    Quote from: ateapotist on October 10, 2010, 03:03 AM
    I can't bring myself to hate/bash Maajid Nawaz.  He is trying his best to make the world a better place using his skills and personality/background (as an ex-radical).  I just wish he was more influential within Islam.

    Quote from: billy on October 10, 2010, 09:29 AM
    (I also like Maajid, I know he can be accused of being in denial, but everyone reaches their destination from different journeys, and he does good work)



    Just out of curiosity what good work would you consider he’s done? A good person to benchmark him against would be, Shiraz Maher I think, who was also a former member of Hizb ut Tahrir.
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  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #49 - October 10, 2010, 01:01 PM

    Maajid Nawaz  is ex Hizb ut Tahrir, and he is very active in discrediting them and Islamism as a whole. At least that is the impression and my awareness of his work.

    I disagree with his view on Islam itself, but as I say, he is at a certain point of a long journey.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #50 - October 10, 2010, 01:15 PM
    I see. Okay.
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  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #51 - October 10, 2010, 01:19 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on October 10, 2010, 12:48 PM
    I can't see this happening. They are united by the gray umbrella of Islam, but not fractionated enough to spark such division on an open forum, I think. Plus, if they did, majority Muslims would probably be against them. Though, I'd love to see it, and it would be great for it to happen. Hmm ... *thinks of possibility*


    Do you mean a debate between the likes of Maajid and Zeba against someone like Mehdi Hasan or other orthodox practitioners?
    I agree that there might be a lack of fractioned difference at some levels.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #52 - October 10, 2010, 01:36 PM
    Mehdi Hasan would be good enough. Orthodox practitioners would be great. Within the mentality of "Us Vs Them", it's still largely Islam Vs the West not "progressive Islam" Vs "Orthodox Islam". Since Islam doesn't really cater for a more moderate version, the former divide is more prevalent than the latter. Well, at least that's how I see things for now and the next few years. Such debate would be great though for getting the ball rolling, but some would see it as plain stirring up tension if done from the outside ... Muslims need to sort this out themselves really ... if Islam will promote such dialogue it is another matter.
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  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #53 - October 10, 2010, 02:23 PM
    I stopped watching this debate one hour in because I found the performance from the muslims to be fucking pitiful. They did not have the balls to admit that the religion itself may be at fault in some of the ritual practises and that the interpretations of the texts give the radicalised extremists justification for their actions. Instead of outright stating that there are some Islamic concepts which are contrary to the notion of peace and solidarity against the extremists, such as praying to the Makkah which is an icon of discrimination(something I completely agree with thunderf00t on), what they do is they try to shift the blame towards the extremist's lack of knowledge of TRUE ISLAM and the notion of them bastardizing it for their own political conquests. They attempt to make out like the entire Islamic history has been a prosperous one when the muslims stuck to 'genuine Islamic principles' and fucked up when they deviated. Yeah, that's exactly what Abdul fucking Wahaab thought to, and is part of the fucking problem.

    When they fail to accept that all advances within society dominated by usually happen IN SPITE OF RELIGION rather than BECAUSE OF it, they fail to see the problem and its possible solutions. They essentially become part of the problem and give ammunition to christian fundamentalists and neocon right-wing pricks like Douglas Murray(who actually I liked in this debate, don't get me wrong but I disagree with him on other issues) who want to portray muslims as a virus who must be shunned from the West and exploited in the East for our own use. When Zeba was talking about movements about Women's Rights in the Islamic World lead by muslim females, I kept asking myself the very question(and I'm disappointed their opposition did not pick up on it) that 'is this in spite of Islam, or because of Islam?', because as I've stated previously, it is the former!

    As for the debate, I think it is entirely flawed as the notion of a 'Religion of Peace' is just a buzzword. Peace, or peacefulness is an attribute we give to people or groups of people who are being peaceful. It's an attribute we give based upon action, not principles or scriptures, not gods or prophets, but based on the actions of the ordinary motherfucker who is paying his bills, feeding his kids and sometimes, those who are promoting violence amongst other groups of people. There is no such thing as a 'Religion of Peace'. The question should be 'Are Muslims Peaceful?', and if not; why?

    These secular/moderate muslims should stop preaching to the fucking choir with this whole 'ISLAM IS PEACE!!!!!' bullshit, as it serves no purpose towards their cause, and keeps them within this circle of debate on what Muhammad did and what the Qur'an says. None of that's going to solve anything, it's time these people man up and realise it.
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #54 - October 10, 2010, 02:24 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 09, 2010, 09:28 AM
    Wow, the Muslim side got demolished.

    What makes me roll my eyes is how Muslims seem to want to take credit for shit that you’re just supposed to do anyway. Brag about stuff a normal person just gets on with. “I’m peaceful” “I do not condone violence” “I raise my family” “My life has meaning” So? What the fuck do you want, a medal?

    And pretty much all the apparently positive things the Muslim side talked about while trying to make the case for a religion of peace are things done despite or besides their religion, not because of their religion, sometimes even in direct conflict with explicit teachings, commandments and canonical rules of Islam.

    Maajid Nawaz should have been put on the other side. He’s walking talking proof that Islam is not a religion of peace. He had the good sense to stop being a fuckhead and went for Islam-lite instead, take Islam in moderation as part of a balanced normal persons diet.


    I didn't read this thread when I made my post but fuck you for stealing my hunder. I completely agree.
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #55 - October 10, 2010, 02:26 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on October 10, 2010, 01:36 PM
    Within the mentality of "Us Vs Them", it's still largely Islam Vs the West not "progressive Islam" Vs "Orthodox Islam". Since Islam doesn't really cater for a more moderate version, the former divide is more prevalent than the latter.


    The Muslim / Infidel binary over rides everything, right? Even within Islam, the divide between orthodox and progressive is posited as the 'progressive' betraying the deen to the kuffar. And that's why apostates must be killed, too.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #56 - October 10, 2010, 04:33 PM
    how can there be an islam other than what mo and his thugs bought?

    muslims believe islam is really from god. and they believe god told mo all about it.
    then how can their be any1 who knows islam better than mo?

    mo killed, pillaged, raped kuffar. that is islam. if PPL dont want to do those things
    then they dont follow islam. they follow something else that they have made up and call islam. islam demands expansion. islam demands subjugation of kuffar. to make allah word most high and to make kuffar most low. islam obliges the murder of kuffar till they submit. (Surah 8, ANFAL and surah 9 TAWBAH). asnd this is what mo did in his time.

    PPL say christianity is enlightened, bullshit. christians no longer follow the original christianity of the bible.
    christians (ppl) became enlightened by abandoning certain parts of christianity. if u think islam is bad for womens rights, read the bible. it make ur eyes water.

    PPL like Cromwell fought against the king and church to bring what eventually led to western freedom and democracy. enlightenment wasnt something christianity chose. enlightenment was shoved down christianities throught.

    again another case of a religion taking credit for something it did not do and was against.
    fundamentalist christians are the same as fundamentalist muslims.
    All I know is that the universe is a beautiful & complicated place. I think we are beautiful beings. Everyday I find something to marval at. I just hope I don't get burned in eternal torment because I miscalculated the truth level of a 7th Century camel salesman's feverish rantings. ~ BlackDog
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #57 - October 10, 2010, 05:38 PM
    Here is a bit more of maajid nawaz

    Against Anjem Chaudry
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrueU4xd2w

    Here is he arguing against the idiot Aamir Liaqat of Pakistan (urdu mostly)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR-jmhcXt6Q
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #58 - October 10, 2010, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: serrated_colon on October 10, 2010, 02:24 PM
    I didn't read this thread when I made my post but fuck you for stealing my hunder. I completely agree.


    You snooze, you lose  Tongue
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: IQ2 Debate - Islam Is a Religion of Peace.
     Reply #59 - October 10, 2010, 07:02 PM
    Quote from: canex on October 10, 2010, 05:38 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrueU4xd2w


    Thank Allah for Anjem Choudary.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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