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Theme Changer

 Topic: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?

 (Read 8349 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     OP - October 16, 2010, 09:09 AM

    With the recent Ground Zero Mosque controversy my thoughts have once more returned to 9/11.

    I find it hard to understand how Islam can lend credence to this ideology. These men were religious. They believed what they were doing was a moral act, in fact the most moral, they gave their lives for their beliefs. They had families and loved ones, they have the same survival mechanism as the rest of us.

    They were convinced all the way to the end. Right to the last living moment.

    I don't think promises of houris is a big enough carrot.

    So where in Islam does it say you can murder children, women and men. Civlians. People who have never harmed you. In fact where does it say you can kill muslims?

    I can't find the verses. I find verses such as spreading Islam, striking fear into the heart of unbelievers. And cleanse the muslim land from kafirs.

    Is the 9/11 ideology one that has twisted the evil of Islam to an unrecognizable form? Or is the 9/11 ideology a mirror of Islam?

    For if the concept of fighting off the kuffars then symbolically its a fight against America. But the manner in which this was carried out meant sacrificing over 3000 innocent lives, some of the Muslim. How did the hijackers square that circle as Muslims?
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #1 - October 16, 2010, 09:35 AM

    s
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #2 - October 16, 2010, 10:04 AM

    Quote
    So where in Islam does it say you can murder children, women and men. Civlians. People who have never harmed you.


    The main argument terrorists use is this verse: whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you (2:194). Based on that, they justify the murdering of civilians since that the enemy is murdering Muslim civilians (Palestine and the blockade on Iraq which resulted in more than 1.5 million deaths among children due to the lack of food and medical supplies, but post 9-11 you can add to that the American invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq).

    Another argument is.... well let me first say : There are two conflicting Hadiths, in one Muhammad says that killing non-warriors - such as women and children- is prohibited; and in the other one Muhammad was asked about raiding in night when the attacker can't see well leading to the killing of women and children, Muhammad responded: "They are among them (the enemy)".  Muslim scholars solved this contradiction by saying that the deliberate targeting of women and children is prohibited, but if the attacker can't distinguish them from the warriors then it's OK. Terrorists and their apologists actually used this argument for even justifying the murdering of Muslims in their attacks. That's why they don't care that the majority of the victims of attacks against American forces in Iraq are actually Muslims.

  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #3 - October 16, 2010, 10:26 AM

    ^ Eloquently put. A third rationale one commonly hears from the lips of ululating beardos for sending the godless into the arms of God uninvited is that the taxpayer faciliates aggression against Islam by filling the coffers of the treasury out of which the defence budget comes. Right from Bin Laden's lips that. It makes no difference that withholding one's taxes is a penal offence or that a slice of the revenue so generated is diverted to foreign aid to feed the basket cases of failed Islamic states. Their dirt poor family who subsist on UN food rations included. But who said logical consistency was ever the strong suit of the towelheads?

    Barakallahu Feek
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #4 - October 16, 2010, 11:15 AM

    Indiscriminate terror is not something I believe Muhammad was into. Muhammad did onerous things. He expelled the Qaynucans en masse because three of them stripped a Muslimah. He collectively punished the Nadir because he got paranoid that they were going to throw a boulder on his head. He sat in front of their fortress with his goon squad (I imagine he looked like the iconic photo of Huey P Newton) and demanded they leave all their possessions and get out. The Nadir waited inside incredulously: surely this guy isn't serious? He was and they left. Then he beheaded 800 Qurayzans because 10 of them rushed his crew during the Meccan siege of Medinah.

    Muhammad loved the ladies with a passion and drove his wives, especially Aisha, crazy with jealousy. He had some poetess axed because she wrote some verses against him and engaged in the armed robbery of caravans. Yet, he also preached the cultivation of virtues. He fixed a share of the loot for the poor and indigent. He said to smile in your brother's face and to treat each other well.

    In my mind, the person who best understood and acted upon Muhammad's sunnah in the modern era is Jeff Fort. These guys who blow up buildings and kill people indiscriminately around the world don't have anything of the character of Muhammad. Muhammad was about much more than violence and blood shed. They cherry pick for their perverse ends. They refuse to see the big picture. Muhammad was the original gangster of love.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #5 - October 16, 2010, 11:22 AM

    ^ s#s
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #6 - October 16, 2010, 11:30 AM

    LOL. I read what you wrote and I liked it, but I swear I didn't plagiarise from you. I thought of this earlier today while reading Maxime Rodinson's Muhammad.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #7 - October 16, 2010, 11:39 AM

    ^ Maxine's book is on my Amazon wish list. Any good my lovely? I'm oscillating between hers and Martin Lings'. But I can't lend credence to your denial. If you had pubilished the above in a book, I might have sued you for damages you scoundrel. Stray Question: How often do you imagine that happens when writers incorrectly suspect that others have pilfered their work? Fascinating. It's either plagiarism or that you're my clone. Which one?
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #8 - October 16, 2010, 11:45 AM

    Is what I'm saying really that similar to yours? The way you phrased yours was way better than mine Kiss

    Anyway, Maxime Rodinson's book is loads better than Lings'. Rodinson tries to contextualise Muhammad, in a sympathetic way, and approaches the subject as an atheist. Lings' is a hagiography with all sorts of weird shit like miracles etc. If you want to read a Muslim account read Lings (aka Abu Bakr Siraj al-Deen). I prefer Rodinson.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #9 - October 16, 2010, 11:56 AM

    a
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #10 - October 16, 2010, 12:04 PM

    I read the Lings 10 years ago. I remember finding it painful but the chapters are short so one can get through the book easily. Lings is pushing the "Allah's Apostle" line. Boring for faithful and unfaithful alike, but strangely edifying for those who bow down with those who bow down. Rodinson's chapters are longer but it's oh so much more interesting. If you want to glimpse the life of the gangster, Rodinson is the go. Much more readable.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #11 - October 16, 2010, 12:10 PM

    q
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #12 - October 16, 2010, 12:14 PM

    I am an innocent oh Mount A Bison. But you must teach me.

    I want my IQ to reach 22 with your 12".  Yum Yum

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #13 - October 16, 2010, 01:06 PM

    It depends on how the term 'innocent' has been established. Religious schools of thought have a tendancy to use a word we recognise while meaning something else entirely. Sometimes this is interntional, sometimes it is just a sincere misunderstanding of language. However, there are plenty of imaginary, victimless crimes that warrent punishment according to divine authority and established law. The Abrahamic faiths have more than their fair share of such laws.

    The Qur’an is an instruction manual for Holy War. Its a schizophrenic work, invented by a violent and arrogant cock-waving bastard, who was not above a bit of terror tactics himself. Islamic faith is based on the words and deeds of this dark age warmonger at its heart. This is truth above all else. On almost every page of the Qur‘an, the point is hammered home, sometimes blatantly, sometimes more subtlety, that the non-Muslim is the hated enemy of Allah. An observant and obedient Muslim is the caretaker of Allah’s justice in this world. 1+1=2.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #14 - October 16, 2010, 01:34 PM

    s
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #15 - October 16, 2010, 01:37 PM

    I've read it, and I think you've been watching too much Hollywood.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #16 - October 16, 2010, 01:41 PM

    d
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #17 - October 16, 2010, 01:56 PM

    You should demote the epileptic, small-dicked weakling to a token badguy, and put a real leading man at centre stage.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #18 - October 16, 2010, 02:11 PM

    Al Qaida isnt justified in seeking chemical or biological weapons either.  Muslims of Muhammads era were forbidden to use poison tipped arrows.  I think a direct analogy can be made to those weapons today. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #19 - October 16, 2010, 02:43 PM

    The main argument terrorists use is this verse: whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you (2:194). Based on that, they justify the murdering of civilians since that the enemy is murdering Muslim civilians (Palestine and the blockade on Iraq which resulted in more than 1.5 million deaths among children due to the lack of food and medical supplies, but post 9-11 you can add to that the American invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq).

    Another argument is.... well let me first say : There are two conflicting Hadiths, in one Muhammad says that killing non-warriors - such as women and children- is prohibited; and in the other one Muhammad was asked about raiding in night when the attacker can't see well leading to the killing of women and children, Muhammad responded: "They are among them (the enemy)".  Muslim scholars solved this contradiction by saying that the deliberate targeting of women and children is prohibited, but if the attacker can't distinguish them from the warriors then it's OK. Terrorists and their apologists actually used this argument for even justifying the murdering of Muslims in their attacks. That's why they don't care that the majority of the victims of attacks against American forces in Iraq are actually Muslims.



    +1

    ^ Eloquently put. A third rationale one commonly hears from the lips of ululating beardos for sending the godless into the arms of God uninvited is that the taxpayer faciliates aggression against Islam by filling the coffers of the treasury out of which the defence budget comes. Right from Bin Laden's lips that. It makes no difference that withholding one's taxes is a penal offence or that a slice of the revenue so generated is diverted to foreign aid to feed the basket cases of failed Islamic states. Their dirt poor family who subsist on UN food rations included. But who said logical consistency was ever the strong suit of the towelheads?

    Barakallahu Feek

    +1

    I have little doubt that radical Muslims who support terrorism strongly believe that they are the better Muslims, and that those who oppose jihad/terrorism are wimps who just want to appease the West and continue living in luxury.  What motivates the radicals most is a combination of politics and religion.  They use perceived grievances to attract Muslims to their cause, and then inject the love of God in them and the love of paradise, 72 virgins etc etc.  Young men also enjoy having a purpose to their life.  It gives them a sense of power.

    As Salim Munqith has mentioned above, there is enough in the Quran and Hadith to justify terrorism, so the radicals find it relatively easy to indoctrinate young Muslims.  The (so-called) moderates are fighting a losing battle unless they consciously agree that the Quran and Hadith are irrelevant in today's age.  And that is something they are not prepared to do, except for a tiny minority of Muslims.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #20 - October 16, 2010, 02:52 PM

    w
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #21 - October 16, 2010, 02:55 PM

    So where in Islam does it say you can murder children, women and men. Civlians. People who have never harmed you. In fact where does it say you can kill muslims?

    I can't find the verses. I find verses such as spreading Islam, striking fear into the heart of unbelievers. And cleanse the muslim land from kafirs.

    But the manner in which this was carried out meant sacrificing over 3000 innocent lives, some of the Muslim. How did the hijackers square that circle as Muslims?

    Muslim scholars solved this contradiction by saying that the deliberate targeting of women and children is prohibited, but if the attacker can't distinguish them from the warriors then it's OK. Terrorists and their apologists actually used this argument for even justifying the murdering of Muslims in their attacks. That's why they don't care that the majority of the victims of attacks against American forces in Iraq are actually Muslims.

    Islam didn't say to kill civilians.

    But the line of reasoning extremists use is, if other Muslims die as a result of their actions, they will go straight to Paradise, so they have nothing to fear. They think that would do them a great favor. However, the unbelievers who died will end up roasting in the Hellfire.

    Another way they justify it is, they deem the leader of a country to be an enemy to them and Muslims. A majority of civilians elected that leader, so therefore they carry blame, and are not truly innocent.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #22 - October 16, 2010, 02:59 PM

    Mr Bison, I can't stop you living in a fantasy world, but you can't drag me into it with you Smiley

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #23 - October 16, 2010, 03:13 PM

    s
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #24 - October 16, 2010, 03:15 PM

    Finding a fact to challenge is a problem in and of itself.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #25 - October 16, 2010, 03:23 PM

    d
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #26 - October 16, 2010, 03:31 PM

    You can cheerlead and wet your panties about little Mo as much as you like. Whatever floats your boat.

    Thinking the Prophet was a slimy little asshole does not equal seething resentment and irrational hatred, however.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #27 - October 16, 2010, 03:35 PM

    d
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #28 - October 16, 2010, 03:40 PM

    Well, at least I don't talk out of mine.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Can 9/11 be justified by Islam?
     Reply #29 - October 16, 2010, 03:45 PM

    gt
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »