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 Topic: ex-christian ex-theist...

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  • ex-christian ex-theist...
     OP - October 21, 2010, 11:41 AM

    Hello to everyone on this forum and to everyone reading my bio, i have been reading this forum for 6 months now and i swear i have read every single post on this forum, i have finally decided to join it and post my bio.

    Im a 23 year old male and i live in california, my journey started a few years ago and it involved christianity,islam,judaism, logic,reason and a vast array of subjects. Growing up i cant recall religion playing a huge role in my life, partly due to the way i grew up i had to focus on surviving both.mentally and physically as i grew up without a family per se as i grew up in california's state ran foster care system. I grew up without a mother or a father figure so i was always in survival mode. I have 4 older brothers also 3 of them grew up the same way i did, 1 of them at one point in life was a devout catholic but has since left religion altogether. My questioning of god began as a 7 year old,i remember living in a foster home with people who i hated with a passion at that age, i remember running away for a bit when they took me on a trip to ride horses at a stable, i ran to a woodsy area and at that young age i had a idea that god was some interventionist force that would save me, i remember tearing at my face and tearing at my chest crying out to god at such a young age to save me from my present calamity, sure enough no such thing happened. My life continued, i moved around a lot to different homes, different neighborhoods one thing that caught my attention at a young age was that i had these feelings of being a  outcast and unwanted, even at a young age i felt that god would look after me, guide me and show me a way to elevate my status. I remember seeing how when i moved to black and hispanic neighborhoods how christianity and religion itself gave these communites a sense of social activism and justice, how christianity was preached  where i grew up was that every man, woman, child are equal and and no one can judge anyone on the basis of how rich or poor you were or if you were white black asian or hispanic, because everyone is equal in the eyes of god and everyone will answer to god. Mind you this is a liberal christianity being preached in the cities of san francisco and oakland. Nonetheless these sayings by the preachers really left a impact on me, i clinged to them due to my sense of being a outcast and unwanted at a young age, i still didnt goto church often but i do remember feeling equal there and the sense of a communalism that was based on the spirit of equality. Life continued, eventually i stopped thinking about religion and god due to the surrounding crazyness in my life.

    Things started to change, my freshman year in highschool i woke up one morning got on the bus to head to school, i remember the bus driver saying this bus is stopping permanetly and your high school has told everyone to go back home. I headed home to witness the second jet flying into the twin towers, and i recall being in utter shock, my mind racing trying to figure out what the fuck just happend. I remember staying glued to the tv all day watching the news, thinking to myself who would do such a thing. Eventually the news started saying it were islamic extremists who did it, i remember saying no religious person would do such a thing the news must be wrong,mind you i didnt really know what the fuck a muslim was at that point. I would have to say 9/11 shaped my views on islam rather radically, i would say i became more protectionist about christianity and venomous towards islam, i saw the attack on the twin towers as a personal attack on me and my country,i viewed this country as a special place, the only fucking place on planet earth i would ever live and the only place i would be able to make something out of myself, this is why i felt it was a personal attack back then, my views became harsh towards islam and it's followers, even though i had muslim friends and one of my favorite teachers (reza) was from iran and a muslim,i started thinking can i trust them? can i be friends with them? sure enough i continued being friends, and still enjoyed my teachers lectures. Life continued on through the iraq war and afghanistan i remember seeing the massive protests in my city about the iraq war, i remember genuinely believing iraq had wmd and ties to al qaeda and thinking that the protestors were just haters of this country and were hippies, i remember cheering the bombing campaign on the news of baghad and thinking that all those bombs are killing those responsible for 9/11....(i know this shit is fucked up, i will regret that shit for the rest of my life). Life continued, gradually as i got older i started identifying with christianity more even though i was never baptized and i have not been to church in a while, i still lacked a sense of belonging, but i felt that identifying with christianity would make me belong to people all over the world, a sort of worldwide family that i would be apart of. I didnt think about religion again seriously until i graduated from high school and started making it on my own, one day i was invited to a church by my friend and coworker, it was a 7th day adventist church and the pastor was a former satanist (LOL) i felt welcomed there, it wasnt a normal church visit, it was a place were people ages 18-24 would show up and have discussions regarding religion

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #1 - October 21, 2010, 12:38 PM

    sure enough this church was very liberal and open minded, but something strange started happening, when the pastor started talking about different verses and people asking questions i just started laughing at how all crazy some of this sounds, how illogical it was. But these feelings of silliness dissipated and i convinced myself that god is beyond human understanding or human logic blah blah blah..i showed up a few more times and just started getting sick of it, i started thinking that these people are not being true to the bible by claiming some verses were meant to be metaphorical and such and that they were polluting the teachings of the bible. So i decided to fucking finally read the bible front to back. In my journey in reading the bible at first i felt like i was doing something pure and i was on a path of truly understanding what god is saying and what god has planned for me, i felt this sense of self-rightousness that i would know more than most christians by reading the bible front to back and i wouldn't pollute its teachings. Over the course of a year i read the bible every night until i fell asleep, i would read it front to back over and over again, but in that time i was in a desperate place and i was mostly just reading for some sort of guidance, those earlier feelings of silliness and illogic of some verses never arose . I eventually started reading about islam, mind you i was reading about it not from its sources but from jihadwatch and such,man that guy over there rubbed of on me in the wrong way, i started sharing alot of his views(all muslims practicing taqiyyah all the time blah blah blah) and such, but what i liked about his site was that he used islamic sources with alot of stuff he posted on his blog. Eventually i started engaging in debates and reading debates of christianity and islam, which one is religion of peace, true, all of the sort of debates you expect to hear from christianity and islam i read them and debated them. Eventually i got burned out of jihad watch and i started reading the quran and hadiths myself alittle bit and at that point i decided to make my own arguments against islam, mind you islam wasn't what i expected it to be i noticed alot of the similiarities between christianity judaism and islam, and i was impressed by some muslim theologians, i didn't read much of the quran at first, i read just to see what it was about, while i was reading it i felt like the book was boring and it copied much of the old testament,unoriginal, (could be my ex-christian bias lol Smiley, but nevertheless i continued reading about chrisitanity islam and judaism, until one day i just started thinking, asking questions, and reading, and reflecting on my life, i started thinking more about morality and thinking about the role logic and reason should play in my life, all this time i was trying to implement the bible in small steps into my everyday life, the bible is harsh towards homosexuals and i started thinking about how i should treat them, but i started thinking about all the gay people i knew in my life, i mean goddam i was adopted by a gay man at the age of 16, i had gay friends, and i saw how god treated them in his own words, well lets just say i avoided that issue altogether.

    The next thing i started thinking about is what happens to people who dont believe in god and jesus etc, the bible says they will be thrown in hell, and they will gnash their teeth, but something clicked in me i just shut down thinking along the lines of that, i started saying to myself "if anyone on earth is good and does good things god will let them into heaven", again this reasoning comes from my earlier experiences at church, eventhough they very cleary contradicted what the bible says towards unbelievers. After all this self examination of morality,ethics,logic,reason i started reading about philosophy,logic, those things have always fascinated me and they still do, but these subjects started coming into conflict with my newfound sense of faith and religion, it reached a point where i questioned alot of stuff about religion and god. It reached a boiling point when i was reading a comprehensive book about world history, i was already doubting the bible and god and heaven and hell, i read about the epic of gilgamesh and how when he was searching for the garden of immortality his friend died and he cried and pounded the ground around his friend wishing for his friend would come back to life, instead he didnt and his friends corpse started having maggots crawl over him(brief summary of the whole scene lol), this story for some reason had a enormous impact on me, i got red hot all over and all my doubts came to fruition,i had a enormous sense of fear and aloneness i've never felt before,i started crying and saying to myself that i was living a lie, i had this sense of losing something like gilgamesh lost his friend, but that "losing" feeling was me beginning to lose my faith in god and religion,i remember calling up some people i was close to and telling them i had fear of death, but not like before because this time i feel death is permanent,and i remember them trying to console me and such(even though they weren't religious themselves) but to no avail. The next couple of days i kinda sleepwalked.

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #2 - October 21, 2010, 12:58 PM

    i sleepwalked the next couple of days, i was in a deep depression and had this feeling of dread and of losing something. I tried reading the bible for some comfort of any kind but none came,at that point i just lost faith. After all this i was just living my life day to day, i still read about religion, i still read the bible, but my perspective wasn't one of faith but of reason,morality,ethics,i noticed that the bible had a skewed idea on all these subjects. Eventually i started reading Faith Freedom International, i read all their articles, i never posted on their forums. I thought Ali Sina was a very good debater, i remember reading jihadwatch and FFI forums and seeing christians preach their religion and kind of cheering them on back then, i saw how christians bashed islam with logic,ethics,reason, i saw in the process of me reading ffi and jihadwatch forums just how much of a hypocrite i was. I critiqued islam for its irrational,illogic,unethical teachings, but at the same time i subscribed to the same beliefs, just a "holy book" with a different name. I've always and will always value honesty above alot of shit but this approach i was taking was dishonest and any religion that critiques anothers while sharing the same faults is dishonest. I kept reading FFI and such started reading islam watch, but i was disgusted at ali sinas obsession with president obama, hes a good debater i will give him that but his articles on the other hand are not up to par with his debating skills. Eventually i was browsing ex-christian sites and ex muslim sites looking for a different atmostphere, i stumbled across this site and i've come to value it alot. Since i've read these forums i have a new outlook towards muslims definately,i mean i never degraded them and considered them scum of the earth or any crap like that but i feel like i have mellowed out my views. I would say watching Hassan and islame videos haved helped alot in becoming i guess you can say more humanistic in my approach towards people who follow religion. Im not trying to start a personality cult of hassan or islame but their approach to their youtube videos has had a positive impact on me. But enough of this wall of text, i hope someone reads all this crap. If anyone wants to know me better or ask me any questions please feel free.

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #3 - October 21, 2010, 01:17 PM

    signwelcome  if you have read every post in the forum, then you will probably know what my next question is Wink

    btw You could have put all your posts in one thread by hitting the reply button

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #4 - October 22, 2010, 02:40 AM

    if you have read every post in the forum, then you will probably know what my next question is Wink


    I have read many many posts in the forum, and I still don't know what your next question would be, because his bio was pretty detailed, I think.  grin12

    @calikid

    Very interested read. Thanks for sharing. Glad you finally found our site, after going through all those fundies, lol. And that's awesome that researching about Islam made you question about your own religion. Afro


    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #5 - October 22, 2010, 07:37 AM

    I typed this up in feverish mode, i can assume your next question will be about my beliefs now??? Well i would say im agnostic/deist/pantheist lol i know thats somewhat of a contradiction but im still trying to figure it out. I'm wondering if there is any way all my threads can be merged into one by a mod our admin?? if so i would appreciate it otherwise i'll look like a jackass with three threads posted.

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #6 - October 22, 2010, 07:39 AM

    @lukatic....Yea i did study islam and it did make me question my beliefs. The irony of it all is i was trying to discredit and ridicule islam but it backfired on me.

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #7 - October 22, 2010, 07:45 AM

    how did you discover this forum?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #8 - October 22, 2010, 07:52 AM

    @islame I'm not quite sure but i think it was fresh right after i stopped believing, i was browsing apostates of other religions, it was either FFI or apostates of islam. I know for sure i clicked on a link and came upon this site, i was impressed and continue to be impressed.

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #9 - October 23, 2010, 02:48 PM

    Fascinating, introspective story. Keep it up.  Smiley

    i sleepwalked the next couple of days, i was in a deep depression and had this feeling of dread and of losing something. I tried reading the bible for some comfort of any kind but none came,at that point i just lost faith. After all this i was just living my life day to day, i still read about religion, i still read the bible, but my perspective wasn't one of faith but of reason,morality,ethics,i noticed that the bible had a skewed idea on all these subjects. Eventually i started reading Faith Freedom International, i read all their articles, i never posted on their forums. I thought Ali Sina was a very good debater, i remember reading jihadwatch and FFI forums and seeing christians preach their religion and kind of cheering them on back then, i saw how christians bashed islam with logic,ethics,reason, i saw in the process of me reading ffi and jihadwatch forums just how much of a hypocrite i was. I critiqued islam for its irrational,illogic,unethical teachings, but at the same time i subscribed to the same beliefs, just a "holy book" with a different name. I've always and will always value honesty above alot of shit but this approach i was taking was dishonest and any religion that critiques anothers while sharing the same faults is dishonest.

    Most of us were hypocrites in that same way when we believed in Islam.

    Whenever we heard someone make a mockery out of religions, we'd enthusiastically jump on board, because all religions are silly and mythical but Islam.  Roll Eyes

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #10 - November 23, 2010, 02:10 AM

    Welcome, kid.  Afro I'm an apostate first of Catholicism then Islam. I was born Catholic, gave it up after 10 years, had an interest in Islam for 6 years, then was a Muslim for 5 months after an imam convinced me of joining since my knowledge of Islam was amazing and should be put to good use.

    Some days it's hard. I would NEVER dream of going back to Catholicism (HATE it), but somedays I either want to go back to Christianity and/or Islam, but then reason prevails.

    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #11 - November 23, 2010, 02:16 AM

    Welcome to the forum  victory

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #12 - November 24, 2010, 11:50 PM

    Some days it's hard. I would NEVER dream of going back to Catholicism (HATE it), but somedays I either want to go back to Christianity and/or Islam, but then reason prevails.


    Why do you sometimes want to go back?
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #13 - November 25, 2010, 01:52 AM

    Lassan, I actually didn't mind Islam, I found it very peaceful for me. I liked praying 5-6xs a day. However, when my friend's convert mother kept pressuring me and then my friend kept pressuring me to move into Islam accelerated, I couldn't do it. Also, it caused a lot of friction in my family. And I missed eating pork; giving up pork was actually really unhealthy for me.

    For Christianity, I'd like to believe Christ was the son of God, but I really can't. Some Christians are pretty cool, but since I don't believe Christ is the son of God, I can't be a Christian.

    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #14 - November 25, 2010, 02:02 AM

    I'm wondering if there is any way all my threads can be merged into one by a mod our admin??

    Done. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #15 - November 25, 2010, 03:48 AM

    Welcome Calikid!

    Lassan, I actually didn't mind Islam, I found it very peaceful for me. I liked praying 5-6xs a day. However, when my friend's convert mother kept pressuring me and then my friend kept pressuring me to move into Islam accelerated, I couldn't do it. Also, it caused a lot of friction in my family. And I missed eating pork; giving up pork was actually really unhealthy for me.

    For Christianity, I'd like to believe Christ was the son of God, but I really can't. Some Christians are pretty cool, but since I don't believe Christ is the son of God, I can't be a Christian.


    No offence pierced_beauty, but it seems like you joined and left Islam out of convenience rather than based on whether it was true or not.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #16 - November 25, 2010, 01:25 PM

    Yes, Eliphaz, I did. I was threatened to be run out of my home and the Muslims wanted me to leave my family, and I didn't want to do that.

    I don't agree with the treatment of women and infidels. And well, I'm more agnostic, which that doesn't fly in Islam.

    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #17 - November 25, 2010, 03:11 PM

    If you weren't threatened to be run out of your home, do you feel would you still be a Muslim today, perhaps with some agnostic views?
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #18 - November 25, 2010, 04:49 PM

    Well, probably not. Not eating pork made me sick and caused a lot of health issues. I can't committ to Islam 100%, not even 85%. I can committ maybe 40%.

    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #19 - November 25, 2010, 05:48 PM

    Why would not eating pork cause health issues?  Huh?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #20 - November 25, 2010, 06:46 PM

    I'm Italian, pork is an important staple in our diet. Substituting pork with beef caused me to gain so much weight and it made me feel nauseasous. Now that I'm eating pork again and having more of a balanced diet (more chicken and pork, less beef) has caused me to lose the weight I put on as a Muslim and my cholesterol is back to normal. I can also eat family meals again instead of pre-packaged dinners, which is also really bad for you.

    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #21 - November 25, 2010, 08:30 PM

    Now that's amazing. Pork has given me problems all my life (Double you up gut cramps) and I'm a quarter Sicilian.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #22 - November 25, 2010, 08:45 PM

    So it's the other three quarters that are playing up. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #23 - November 25, 2010, 10:44 PM

    See, I have a lot of health issues and any changes in my diet throws my body out of whack. Anti-depressants gave me hypothyroidism. :(

    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #24 - November 27, 2010, 06:07 AM

    I appreciate that osmanthus  Afro, now i wont look like a jackass

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #25 - November 27, 2010, 06:13 AM

    I can somewhat relate to pierced beauty, sometimes i do miss the familiarness of practicing religion . It isn't so much "i want to believe" its more along the lines of me remembering that i wasn't overly conscious of my worries, that combined with nostalgia i suppose.

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #26 - November 27, 2010, 09:56 AM

    First, I would like to say that, according to your story, I don't think any of us could know what it's been like being an orphan and moving from family to family like they're houses. But we are here to consolidate you no matter what, personal beliefs doesn't get in our way. We will be here for you, or at least I will. Smiley
    Second, after reading your story, I still don't understand how Islam played such an important role in your life that you would be spending that much time here. But I'm just curious Smiley

    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: ex-christian ex-theist...
     Reply #27 - November 30, 2010, 01:16 AM

    First, I would like to say that, according to your story, I don't think any of us could know what it's been like being an orphan and moving from family to family like they're houses. But we are here to consolidate you no matter what, personal beliefs doesn't get in our way. We will be here for you, or at least I will. Smiley
    Second, after reading your story, I still don't understand how Islam played such an important role in your life that you would be spending that much time here. But I'm just curious Smiley




    The only role islam played was me figuring out religion was bullshit, i sat for hours debating muslims online and blasting it's teachings while I subscribed to christianity which is no better. In the process of doing all this i said to myself im being very dishonest because the teachings in the bible are no better, to summarize I slowly stopped being a believing christian due to me studying islam. I dont really spend much time here I mostly post music or 1-liners on posts, but i mostly read here because it is a good forum but you are right i dont have that much in common with people here, i guess thats why i dont post much.

    Good, better, best. Never let it rest. 'Til your good is better and your better is best.
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