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Theme Changer

 Topic: 24:45, water or sperm?

 (Read 16859 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • 24:45, water or sperm?
     OP - October 22, 2010, 05:31 PM

    Just having a debate with a muslim and he argues that the following verse..

    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/24/45/default.htm

    Doesn't say water and that it means sperm instead.


    Now, I see the word as water in the transliteration,
    I see it as the word water in arabic script
    my translation software reads it as water
    As do 20+ translators of the Quran
    as do atleast 30+ islamic websites
    as do 20 'miracle quran' websites
    as does al-tafsir.com
    as does tafsir.com (Ibn Kathir)
    This argument of actual (sea,river ect ect) water was also thrown at me by 3 individual muslims
    and in the context it appears to be water...so i'm pretty positive that it means water and that he's only saying this (as i encounter alot) because I proved that the verse (as its written) to be wrong.

    Then again, he also claims that 'quran' is actually Guran (and thats how he spells it aswell)
    so I doubt he's accurate, but none the less..

    Can someone tell me exactly what the verse states please.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #1 - October 22, 2010, 05:36 PM

    As I am a firm believer that evolution started in water, this verse can be linked to that. (although there are other verses that completely discredit the author to be the omni God)

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #2 - October 22, 2010, 05:38 PM

    Well ofcourse it can be linked...(when disregarding the quran saying humans are created differently, along with 10 other claims of what people were created from)

    but thats not what Im asking.
    I want to know specifically if the verse is in regards to sperm or water.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #3 - October 22, 2010, 05:46 PM

    I'm not sure about the arabic word for sperm, but the word that page transliterates as 'ma-in' definitely means water.

    Unless you can refer to sperm in Arabic as something like 'man-water' lol Cheesy

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #4 - October 22, 2010, 05:47 PM

    Water or sperm? Sperm please.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #5 - October 22, 2010, 06:08 PM

    Bullshit, it's water. End of story.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #6 - October 22, 2010, 06:14 PM

    The maid who used to work at my home back in Pakistan used to bring us freshly made vegetable oil when she comes back from her village, and never accept any money for it, saying its water and it is priceless.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #7 - October 22, 2010, 06:17 PM

    Ask him how much he is looking forward to going to heaven and drinking rivers of sperm (47:15)

    I think in general it is used to mean "liquid".  The Quran says that people are made from ejaculated mucky water.

    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=mwh#(24:45:6)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #8 - October 22, 2010, 06:28 PM

    http://corpus.quran.com/topics.jsp

    Wtf I can't find Houri as a topic here? Nor Jihad, fight/kill (Qatal) and Jews.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #9 - October 22, 2010, 07:10 PM

    Speeerrrrmmmmmm........  dance

    (Ignore me please, that's what I wanted to answer even before I read the whole thread  parrot )
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #10 - October 22, 2010, 07:20 PM

    Grin
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #11 - October 22, 2010, 10:41 PM

    Water or sperm? Sperm please.


    I knew it! I knew you had the hots for Mount A Bison.  Tongue

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #12 - October 23, 2010, 05:51 AM

    So, why are you discussing this verse of the Qur'an?

    Seems like all the English translations use the word water. Which in and of it's self doesn't support evolution. In a general way of speaking the main ingredient in most living things is water.

    because I proved that the verse (as its written) to be wrong. <<Oh, how did you do that, Mighty_Cats?

    This Muslim you're discussing with seems to be on a tangent in more ways then one.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #13 - October 23, 2010, 06:24 AM

    If you read verse 24:39 and verse 24:42, then read verse 24:45, you can make the whole thing fits the evolution of the earth.

    Lots of smoke and clouds, so dark that you can't see your hands if you extend them in front of you, then Allah make clouds that bring down heavy rain and hail stones, then water that from it every living creature comes out from.... Wow, is this a lucky guess or what! Or is it possible to interpret any verse as one wishes?  grin12

    ...
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #14 - October 23, 2010, 09:23 AM

    Of course, in the same way I just interpreted your last post to read you are a closet muslim who's hell heaven bent on converting us all back to greener pastures grin12

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  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #15 - October 23, 2010, 09:50 AM

     Wink

    There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt. --Mignon McLaughlin

    ...
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #16 - October 23, 2010, 11:21 AM

    Ask him how much he is looking forward to going to heaven and drinking rivers of sperm (47:15)


     Cheesy

    Muhammad:

    Sperm
    Water
    Clay
    Falafels?
    Clot of blood

    All of the above
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #17 - October 24, 2010, 07:27 PM

    The word in the verse is indeed 'maa'in.' But this word is also used generally to mean liquid, of course. As in the words, 'Khuliqa min maa'in daafiq' or 'maa'in muheen' in Q. 86:6 and Q. 32:8, respectively. And the exegetes themselves seem to run with this meaning in that verse, rather than thinking that it refers to H2O. But I guess that interpretation is also possible.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #18 - October 24, 2010, 08:05 PM

    Importantly the Quran does not say that we are made from semen AND an egg inside the female.  The egg is far more important than the sperm after all.  But nobody at the time knew about the egg because it's too small to see, people mistakenly thought it was male fluid (semen) mixed with female fluid (menses blood before it exits.)

    Hence no mention of the egg in the Quran.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #19 - October 24, 2010, 08:18 PM

    Well, there is a hadith in Bukhari in which Muhammad mentions the discharge of the women:

    Volume 1, Book 3, Number 132:

    Narrated Um Salama:

    Um-Sulaim came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Verily, Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. Is it necessary for a woman to take a bath after she has a wet dream (nocturnal sexual discharge?) The Prophet replied, "Yes, if she notices a discharge." Um Salama, then covered her face and asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Does a woman get a discharge?" He replied, "Yes, let your right hand be in dust, and that is why the son resembles his mother."

    Volume 4, Book 55, Number 545:

    Narrated Abu Salama:

    Um Salama said, "Um Salaim said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Allah does not refrain from saying the truth! Is it obligatory for a woman to take a bath after she gets nocturnal discharge?' He said, 'Yes, if she notices the water (i.e. discharge).' Um Salama smiled and said, 'Does a woman get discharge?' Allah's Apostle said. 'Then why does a child resemble (its mother)?"

    Volume 8, Book 73, Number 113:

    Narrated Zainab bint Um Salama:

    Um Sulaim said, "O Allah's Apostle! Verily Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. Is it essential for a woman to take a bath after she had a wet dream (nocturnal sexual discharge)?" He said, "Yes, if she notices discharge. On that Um Salama laughed and said, "Does a woman get a (nocturnal sexual) discharge?" He said, "How then does (her) son resemble her (his mother)?"

  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #20 - October 24, 2010, 08:23 PM

    And, interestingly, another hadith along similar lines:

    (relevant parts)

    Volume 4, Book 55, Number 546:

    Narrated Anas:

    When 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." 'Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."

    Volume 5, Book 58, Number 275:

    Narrated Anas:

    When the news of the arrival of the Prophet at Medina reached 'Abdullah bin Salam, he went to him to ask him about certain things, He said, "I am going to ask you about three things which only a Prophet can answer: What is the first sign of The Hour? What is the first food which the people of Paradise will eat? Why does a child attract the similarity to his father or to his mother?" The Prophet replied, "Gabriel has just now informed me of that." Ibn Salam said, "He (i.e. Gabriel) is the enemy of the Jews amongst the angels. The Prophet said, "As for the first sign of The Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to the West. As for the first meal which the people of Paradise will eat, it will be the caudate (extra) lobe of the fish-liver. As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

    Volume 6, Book 60, Number 7:

    Narrated Anas:

    'Abdullah bin Salam heard the news of the arrival of Allah's Apostle (at Medina) while he was on a farm collecting its fruits. So he came to the Prophet and said, "I will ask you about three things which nobody knows unless he be a prophet. Firstly, what is the first portent of the Hour? What is the first meal of the people of Paradise? And what makes a baby look like its father or mother?'. The Prophet said, "Just now Gabriel has informed me about that." 'Abdullah said, "Gabriel?" The Prophet said, "Yes." 'Abdullah said, "He, among the angels is the enemy of the Jews." On that the Prophet recited this Holy Verse:--

    "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel (let him die in his fury!) for he has brought it (i.e. Qur'an) down to your heart by Allah's permission." (2.97) Then he added, "As for the first portent of the Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to West. And as for the first meal of the people of Paradise, it will be the caudite (i.e. extra) lobe of the fish liver. And if a man's discharge proceeded that of the woman, then the child resembles the father, and if the woman's discharge proceeded that of the man, then the child resembles the mother."

  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #21 - October 25, 2010, 08:30 PM

    I suppose if you read one or two verses or lines of anything you could interpret it any way you pleased.  The thing would be the over all purpose for the writing to exist in the first place, how is the agreement with that.  As the Qur'an goes I have no idea at all what so every. I am only asking questions to find out information about this topic of evolution as viewed in the light of what the Qur'an says. I have found no reason to believe the Qur'an is a book inspired by God. I have also found no reason to think that Muhammad has committed fraud on purpose. 

    If for some reason you wanted to engage in a conversation about evolution in light of what the Bible says. Now on that I have an opinion. On that I would be more then willing to methodically go through alot of information to look at the purpose of the writing and why the idea of evolution and that purpose can find no agreement with each other.

    However regardless of all that anybody can still do anthing they want. We are just responsible for what we do. the other day I which an interesting video about atheism that supports that exact point.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #22 - October 25, 2010, 08:36 PM

    Soooo.... you're saying that the Bible contradicts the notion of evolution by natural selection?
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #23 - October 25, 2010, 08:43 PM

    Quote
    The egg is far more important than the sperm after all. 

    You mean 'just as ' dont you?  They do provide the same number of chromosomes after all.
    Importantly the Quran does not say that we are made from semen AND an egg inside the female.  The egg is far more important than the sperm after all.  But nobody at the time knew about the egg because it's too small to see, people mistakenly thought it was male fluid (semen) mixed with female fluid (menses blood before it exits.)

    Interesting - what makes you think this -  Is it what greeks thought?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #24 - October 25, 2010, 08:46 PM

    Of course, in the same way I just interpreted your last post to read you are a closet muslim who's hell heaven bent on converting us all back to greener pastures grin12


    If by chance this was directed at me I can tell you for sure that I am not a closet muslim. In fact I am not a closet anything. If I had only one failing (for a certianty I have many more) it would be that you never have to guess where I stand on a subject. If some how, some way it happens and you are wondering, "What does Lynna think about this?".  By all means ask me.

    To be sure I it is my opinion that each and every individual would be better off to have a correct understanding and personal relationship with Jehovah.  

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #25 - October 25, 2010, 08:54 PM

    Soooo.... you're saying that the Bible contradicts the notion of evolution by natural selection?


    Has natural selectional caused a species to change into another species? Or just change within a species like types of zebras?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #26 - October 25, 2010, 09:03 PM

    I'm overtime at the public library so if I suddenly leave this conversation I'll pick it up in the next day or two when I can get back to a computer.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #27 - October 25, 2010, 09:05 PM

    How about you grab a book on evolution while you're there Smiley

    I recommend "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins. 
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #28 - October 25, 2010, 09:05 PM

    Has natural selectional caused a species to change into another species? Or just change within a species like types of zebras?


    Ofcourse, else you'd have to begin with all animals already existing.
    (EG/ try and explain chickens and rabbits in the Era of the Stegosaurus)
  • Re: 24:45, water or sperm?
     Reply #29 - October 25, 2010, 09:10 PM

    Has natural selectional caused a species to change into another species? Or just change within a species like types of zebras?


    Not natural selection by itself, but in conjunction with genetic mutation, yes. At least, that's what the theory stipulates.
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