Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #30 - October 27, 2010, 10:31 PM

It's interesting that whenever this debate has been had that I've seen, those who are for the ban and the war on drugs are always on the offensive by showing how damaging and negative the effect of drugs has been on mankind.
How about we see the other and try and show the positive effect of drugs? I will start:

1. Drugs started the social revolution of the 60s and undoubtedly played a huge role in the mass uprising against the Vietnam war.
2. Drugs heavily influenced all kinds of musicians from jazz musicians in the 20s upto today and going strong. Many of the greatest albums and songs ever written were composed under the influence of drugs. If anyone is any doubt about this I wonder if they would like to explain exactly what it means to have a genre called "Psychedelic" rock?
3. The LSD testing that Timothy Leary undertook in Harvard was in the same building in which the modern day mouse and keyboard of the computer was invented. And yes, there was a healthy mixing between both departments.

Finally, as Bill Hicks famously said, make pot legal and mandatory and there will never be another war again.

This is not to say that any of these reasons are enough on their own to argue for the open and fair mature use of drugs with every single adult taking responsibility for themselves (though thats what I would like to happen) but rather that there should be some perspective brought to this topic. Drugs are not all bad, they have enhanced creativity and opened doors in people's minds that they never knew existed. They are a gateway to explore the vast magnificence and mystery of the cosmos and while they may have dangers, nobody has the right to stop anybody else from wanting to undertake such a journey.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #31 - October 27, 2010, 10:39 PM

Pot has some uses i.e. relieving insomnia or sleeping disorders but it can also have potential hazardous to people genetically predisposed to mental illnesses.

Don't make pot madatory but make it legal

I have never been 'high' on pot or any other drug so I can't comment too much on their effect on creativity apart from caffeine which I'm very fond of.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #32 - October 27, 2010, 10:45 PM

Can we at least seperate cannabis, mushrooms, acid, xtasy, even phet, from the real problematic drugs like crack and smack? They are worlds apart. It just dilutes the issue. Legalise the soft drugs and you're taking out a massive portion of the problem already. People are going to prison for growing plants and smoking leaves that make you giggle a bit and relax. I don't think anyone in their right mind sees a problem with legalising weed.

Hard drugs are evil, legal or illegal. Making them legal doesn't magically make all the drug related problems go away. At a user level, you'll still have a drug dependant under-culture needing to find ways to fund a habit thats almost impossible to break. These drugs can plow out your personality and turn you into a monster too quickly.

If you make all drugs legal, you’re letting the biggest, baddest, most fucked up, soul-sucking, life-destroying demon genie out of the bottle, and it wont be easy to put it back in. Its not as easy as making drugs legal.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #33 - October 27, 2010, 11:28 PM

so you wont allow me to take
Quote from: Ishina on October 27, 2010, 10:45 PM
the biggest, baddest, most fucked up, soul-sucking, life-destroying demon

if I really want to? Even if I am a responsible user who just wants to enjoy it in moderation.

Heroine was only thing I was going to look forward to if I contracted cancer. Damn I thought having no hoories to look forward to was bad enough, now I'm left with nothing

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #34 - October 27, 2010, 11:53 PM

Quote from: zoomi on October 27, 2010, 10:09 PM
Basically this argument comes down to a discussion over autonomy. Does one have the right to do what they want to their own body (and more importantly, with their lives)? And, does the government have the right to tell you what you can and cannot put in it?

I think I would have to say no, I don't really think it is the government's business, and it's sort of a slippery slope -- when is it going to become government regulation that you must eat healthy, etc?

However the government (and us) do have a choice over how much money we will pump into drug treatment programs and to welfare, etc..

What?!! Total legalisation and treatment funded by the tax payer's money too? Fuck that, you can't have your cake and eat it.

My issues are not with idea of people using drugs to enjoy themselves, they are more to do with the practical side of things. If the legalisation of hard drugs will not bring any long term consequences I am all for it, on the condition that the user enjoys them at his own risk. You overdose, make sure you're covered or you can call a garbage truck to pick you up

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #35 - October 27, 2010, 11:57 PM

Quote from: IsLame on October 27, 2010, 11:28 PM
so you wont allow me to take if I really want to? Even if I am a responsible user who just wants to enjoy it in moderation.

Heroine was only thing I was going to look forward to if I contracted cancer. Damn I thought having no hoories to look forward to was bad enough, now I'm left with nothing

One should take into account the effects widespread usage of heroine might have in society, its addiction potential, harmful effects on the body and mind and how difficult it is to stop using it. Some might have managed to control it but this will not apply to everyone, a government will have to take those factors into account too, individual users only think about what it can do to them individually. It will definitely not be the same as the legalisation of pot or other soft drugs.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #36 - October 28, 2010, 12:05 AM

There seems to be this assumption that our self-righteous society will be flooded with the "evil" substances once they become legal. There are two things to say about this:- 1. These drugs are everywhere already, despite the war on drugs and 2. Anybody who wants these drugs can get them with as much ease as going to a grocery store.

The hard drugs are here, people who want them have and will take them and legalising it will only stop them from being seen as criminals. There won't be a drastic increase in the amount of users because really, anybody who wanted them has them already.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #37 - October 28, 2010, 12:11 AM

Or how about instead of legalising it fully, start with decriminalising the drug use first, like what Portugal did? Report says it's considered a success there. It's no longer police enforcement issues for personal drug use. It's easier for addicts to seek treatment if they're not treated as criminals. Full legalisation and complete rehabilitation offered is the way to go though.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #38 - October 28, 2010, 12:17 AM

Quote from: ras111 on October 27, 2010, 11:53 PM
If the legalisation of hard drugs will not bring any long term consequences I am all for it, on the condition that the user enjoys them at his own risk. You overdose, make sure you're covered or you can call a garbage truck to pick you up

As a libertarian, I'm all for that too - as long as you dont infringe on my rights, I wont infringe on yours.

(By the way if you smoke or drink, I'll return the favour, and dont expect my tax money to help you out if you ever get caught in a sticky situation)

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #39 - October 28, 2010, 12:19 AM

Quote from: z10 on October 28, 2010, 12:05 AM

The hard drugs are here, people who want them have and will take them and legalising it will only stop them from being seen as criminals. There won't be a drastic increase in the amount of users because really, anybody who wanted them has them already.

Yes but are they being widely used? To what extend will its usage increase? What impact will the increase in users have on society as a whole? How will society manage to keep on functioning and keep the economy going if a substantial proportion of it is limited because of the drug? What are the chances of the legalisation of this drug giving rise to massive social problems like those present in Iran and Turkmenistan? Does the society have enough resources to tackle any similar disaster?

These are the questions that should be tackled.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #40 - October 28, 2010, 12:24 AM

Quote from: IsLame on October 28, 2010, 12:17 AM
As a libertarian, I'm all for that too - as long as you dont infringe on my rights, I wont infringe on yours.

(By the way if you smoke or drink, I'll return the favour, and dont expect my tax money to help you out if you ever get caught in a sticky situation)

I share your values, I am at heart a libertarian too. Believe me I have no issue with people using substances in their private lives, and yes the same thing goes for booze and fags too. The problem is that not many people stop to think about the effects widespread usage might have on society. If something happens and significant percentages of people are rendered inefficient because of the use of a certain substance, it will in one way or another come back to bite our arses.

I suppose this is just like the right to bear arms in certain ways, major problems may be avoided if you have a society that is brought up to be responsible and disciplined, even if the ' potential dangers' are readily available, just like the Swiss and the Scandinavians and guns.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Should drugs be made legal?
Reply #41 - October 28, 2010, 12:42 AM

Libertarianism is where my heart & brain lies - i'll leave it up to the powers that be to work out the best possible compromise.

Admittedly the small print will be a major difficulty, and as I wield no more power than what I type in this box, I have not wasted too much time thinking about it.

Daily Mail & Sun readers here would never let it happen, so its a non-starter anyway.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #42 - October 28, 2010, 10:15 AM

OK a day has passed and we've all had a night's sleep. I think the discussion was very heated and obviously we all feel very strongly about the issue, which is good means that we care.

I've thought some more about it and I have to say I have not changed my stance on the criminalization of drug use. It does not feel right to have someone arrested or fined for taking drugs, simple as.

Now does that mean that drugs should be legal? Then selling and distributing drugs should be legal as well. It makes no sense to say drug use is legal but the drugs themselves are illegal, possession, distribution etc.

Which leads me to another dilemma, would I sell the heavy drugs to a person? And honestly I have to say no. I can't sell something I know is harmful, I could sell you weed a certain amount of E, I can sell you a certain amount of booze but I can't sell you anything that I think is harmful. I think I would have a hard time selling people cigarettes.

I don't know the specifics of how these drugs are bad for you and how bad they are. Some people on this forum have tried coke and heroin and other drugs and are not abusers and have not suffered any bodily harm (that we know of).

So how can I imagine the state selling hard drugs? Will the drugs be regulated and "cleansed"?

We have a major problem in the world. This war on drugs is a fucking fiasco. It's not just about South America, Mexico and Afghanistan. It seems like a daily occurance reading about massacres in Mexico and it breaks my fucking heart. And something needs to change, I don’t know what, I don’t know how, but I know that what we have today is not working.

I don’t want a society ravaged by abuse, in whatever form that may be. I believe in a collective society where we work together to build and sustain a community, everybody that can should chip in.

I also worry that somehow the state will be complicit in ruining some kids life because mommy and daddy are too busy doing meth. I know the state should then intervene and take care of matters but things don’t always work out in the real world.

And like I said before we would never have a prohibition on alcohol, even though we know alcohol is the direct and indirect cause of a lot of suffering in society. Why? Is it because we are lulled into a false sense of security? Is it because we want to drink? Or perhaps it’s because alcohol is not as addictive and harmful in equivalent doses (compared with hard drugs)? Do we have research on this?

And Q-Man my only worry for those pics is that we have minors on this site. I don't want this thread to be moved to the Rant area, it's an important discussion.
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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #43 - October 28, 2010, 10:42 AM

Quote from: z10 on October 28, 2010, 12:05 AM
There seems to be this assumption that our self-righteous society will be flooded with the "evil" substances once they become legal. There are two things to say about this:- 1. These drugs are everywhere already, despite the war on drugs and 2. Anybody who wants these drugs can get them with as much ease as going to a grocery store.

The hard drugs are here, people who want them have and will take them and legalising it will only stop them from being seen as criminals. There won't be a drastic increase in the amount of users because really, anybody who wanted them has them already.

+1

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #44 - October 28, 2010, 10:49 AM

Quote from: ras111 on October 28, 2010, 12:19 AM
Yes but are they being widely used? To what extend will its usage increase? What impact will the increase in users have on society as a whole? How will society manage to keep on functioning and keep the economy going if a substantial proportion of it is limited because of the drug? What are the chances of the legalisation of this drug giving rise to massive social problems like those present in Iran and Turkmenistan? Does the society have enough resources to tackle any similar disaster?

These are the questions that should be tackled.

Yes they should be tackled in the context of how we end the Drug War and reconstruct drug policy not if we should do it at all. "It's not that simple" is the common refrain of those opposing immediate reform to broken/unjust/corrupt/inefficient policies and institutions, but, in terms of a commitment to ending the Drug War and constructing government drug policy based on reason and justice rather than fear, narrow institutional interests, and moral panic, it really is that simple.

That commitment should come first and foremost, and should be clear and unwavering. At that point it is certainly wise to discuss the potential negative consequences of legalization/decriminalization of certain drugs, and the best ways to mitigate these consequences-- I've thought about this often too, and have constructed a variety of regulatory scenarios in my mind that could mitigate such consequences (mostly based on government rationing schemes-- which I understand wil lead to gray and black markets, but ones that will be much more controllable than those that exist now).

However, that discussion of the negative impact and how to limit it, should not be a prerequisite to making a commitment to end fundamentally unjust and destructive laws, policies, and institutions. The same consequentialist/incrementalist/"it's not that simple, let's examine this more closely first" objections have been used in response to such things as abolition of slavery, universal suffrage, desegregation, and end to discrimination against gays in the military, and just about every other meaningful effort at repealing unjust laws and reforming broken or unjust institutions/policies.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #45 - October 28, 2010, 11:25 AM

This issue always brings up strong feelings amongst most people and it does with me. I admit i'm bias because i have seen what drug use has done to people in my family and friends, but at the same time i have seen what the "drug laws" have done to people across america. The "drug" laws in california are racist, they turn young people into hardened criminals by the time they turn 20 and they become a stain on your record practically eliminating your employment opportunities all because you wanted to sniff some coke or sell a fucking dime bag, I think it's absurd that your whole life is ruined because of that. I have to say i think certain things shouldn't be made legal, but at the same i see the effects of things deemed illegal, just look at the prison population and at all the crime in the cities and i think most of the killings and inmates are due to participating in the "drug" trade, but i can't help but wonder if there would be this much violence and incarceration if some drugs if not all drugs were made legal.

I have a question for anyone willing to answer. If drugs were made legal do you think the allure of them would die down? I know the question is subjective but i think alot of people get into drug use because its somewhat of a taboo and a "forbidden" thing, if it wasn't so hush hush i think it would lose its allure. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #46 - October 28, 2010, 11:38 AM

@calikid45

I don't think the legalization will change anything... the dutch have pretty average usage of weed like the rest of the European countries (except France and Danemark that have a more than 30% of total population rate)... I think the overall statistics of drug usage and alc. usage are pretty much fixed no matter if drugs and alcohol are illegal or not. Who ever wants a glass of booze or a fix of smack will get it no matter what...

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #47 - October 28, 2010, 01:21 PM

Quote from: Rev. Winton Dupree on October 28, 2010, 10:49 AM
Yes they should be tackled in the context of how we end the Drug War and reconstruct drug policy not if we should do it at all.

Long wars with no end in sight are never going to be profitable or in any government's interests, I should think that one is a given. Ideally wars are short and a beneficial victory is achieved quickly with with minimal losses and costs.

Quote from: Rev. Winton Dupree on October 28, 2010, 10:49 AM

"It's not that simple" is the common refrain of those opposing immediate reform to broken/unjust/corrupt/inefficient policies and institutions,

This is a 'what are the consequences, will we be just as fucked in another way?' situation rather than 'it's not that simple'.. The difference entails actually prioritizing studying long term effects so that the system can be shifted safely and the situation is made better, rather than creating problems of a different kind or maintaining the status quo. Simply ending the drug war is not going to be enough, it has to end well. If it ends and society is still destabilised in other ways, it will be a Pyrrhic victory and a new war would start.

Quote from: Rev. Winton Dupree on October 28, 2010, 10:49 AM

but, in terms of a commitment to ending the Drug War and constructing government drug policy based on reason and justice rather than fear, narrow institutional interests, and moral panic, it really is that simple.

Which was what I was referring to..

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #48 - October 29, 2010, 02:16 AM

when people want drugs they get drugs , banning drugs will make the goverment look like the daddy protecting the raging child/citizen from killing himself and that's ridiculous ,

also cigarette should banned too i mean they kill people right , or so they say
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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #49 - October 29, 2010, 02:24 AM

Quote from: z10 on October 28, 2010, 12:05 AM
There seems to be this assumption that our self-righteous society will be flooded with the "evil" substances once they become legal. There are two things to say about this:- 1. These drugs are everywhere already, despite the war on drugs and 2. Anybody who wants these drugs can get them with as much ease as going to a grocery store.

The hard drugs are here, people who want them have and will take them and legalising it will only stop them from being seen as criminals. There won't be a drastic increase in the amount of users because really, anybody who wanted them has them already.

I agree with this, plus it should improve the quality too.

Quote from: IsLame on October 27, 2010, 11:28 PM

Heroine was only thing I was going to look forward to if I contracted cancer. Damn I thought having no hoories to look forward to was bad enough, now I'm left with nothing

Don't worry, it is prescribed to cancer patients IsLame, just by a different name.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #50 - October 29, 2010, 10:02 AM

Quote from: Maya on October 29, 2010, 02:24 AM
Don't worry, it is prescribed to cancer patients IsLame, just by a different name.

do you mean morphine?

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #51 - October 29, 2010, 10:30 AM

No, diamorphine. You Brits are one of the few civilised people who still have this wonder drug available to at least some of the people who need it.

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #52 - October 29, 2010, 06:58 PM

Quote from: abdalwali on October 29, 2010, 10:30 AM

No, diamorphine. You Brits are one of the few civilised people who still have this wonder drug available to at least some of the people who need it.

Cool, long live the British NHS providing free heroine to its patients

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Re: Should drugs be made legal? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]
Reply #53 - November 25, 2010, 02:09 AM

I find it amusing that they refuse to call it heroin even though it's the same thing.

Anyway, I agree with this:

Quote from: z10 on October 28, 2010, 12:05 AM
There seems to be this assumption that our self-righteous society will be flooded with the "evil" substances once they become legal. There are two things to say about this:- 1. These drugs are everywhere already, despite the war on drugs and 2. Anybody who wants these drugs can get them with as much ease as going to a grocery store.

The hard drugs are here, people who want them have and will take them and legalising it will only stop them from being seen as criminals. There won't be a drastic increase in the amount of users because really, anybody who wanted them has them already.

I could get heroin if I wanted it. No problem. I've seen what it does to people though, and I don't like throwing up or needles anyway, so I've never been inclined to use the stuff. My position would be the same even if it was legal. Consequently, heroin is no threat to my health whatsoever.

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