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Theme Changer

 Topic: Pantheism

 (Read 19843 times)
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  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #120 - November 02, 2010, 10:18 PM

    probably all that quantum entaglement stuff   Wink


    Is that what Sufis call sex?
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #121 - November 02, 2010, 10:22 PM

    its what people with small equipment call the act

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #122 - November 02, 2010, 10:29 PM

    I said no more personal questions

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #123 - November 02, 2010, 10:46 PM

    Ok I know we've done this before, but I'm still curious. What exactly does the word 'God' mean to you?


    i think these days i no longer ponder what 'God' is - i'm not sure it serves any purpose. at present to me personally the word 'God' has no intelligible meaning. i think perhaps it's only worthwile pondering the reality we are immersed in - this includes the natural scientific world but also what most people would consider 'supernatural'.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #124 - November 02, 2010, 10:49 PM

    i think these days i no longer ponder what 'God' is - i'm not sure it serves any purpose. at present to me personally the word 'God' has no intelligible meaning. i think perhaps it's only worthwile pondering the reality we are immersed in

    Great post - my how we've graduated, I'm proud of ya son  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #125 - November 03, 2010, 01:09 AM

    Let's say Bohm's interpretation is correct - if non-local hidden variables do exist, then is it possible we might be able to prove their existence or would we just be able to use them as an idea to describe a model in which they resolve the quantum measurement problem and provide us with a deterministic theory? If there is no way for us to gain access to the realm of hidden variables and if they are part of reality then would we class the hidden variables as something akin to 'stardust' or something akin to 'fairydust'. In fact what is the difference between the two - is it just that we have the potential and means to measure and observe 'stardust' whilst it's impossible to do this do this with 'fairydust'. Then if this were true we would have to say that 'fairydust' is as equally real as 'stardust' (they are both elements of physical reality) - it's just that human concioussness does not have the ability to measure and observe it in the same way it can with 'stardust'.  

    I think I've heard you reasoning along similar lines before? I'm not sure if the above reasoning is consistent or not - just thinking aloud


    I can see what you mean here, and it seems that this is a similar line of reasoning that is used to argue for the multiverse. We have no way of measuring, experiencing, knowing the multiverse or the hidden variables at all but we have posited them because they make the theory work. I am not sure I agree with this line of reasoning because it seems to posit the necessity of an unknown entity to make our current observations work - which seems like a cop out really, no?
    It could be the case that there are infact hidden variables that make qm interactions completely deterministic but if we can never measure them or know them, they will always be an abstract construct - a bit like a deus ex machina used by writers to save a bad plot by giving their hero a superpower at the end of the book to defeat the bad guy. It just leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #126 - November 03, 2010, 01:11 AM

    i think these days i no longer ponder what 'God' is - i'm not sure it serves any purpose. at present to me personally the word 'God' has no intelligible meaning. i think perhaps it's only worthwile pondering the reality we are immersed in - this includes the natural scientific world but also what most people would consider 'supernatural'.


    This is a mature position. Many of the greatest theologians, philosophers etc of all time reached the conclusion that nothing intelligible can be said about divinity and to me it seems like a perfectly valid conclusion.

    and congratulations for your second son  dance

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #127 - November 03, 2010, 01:10 PM

    I can see what you mean here, and it seems that this is a similar line of reasoning that is used to argue for the multiverse. We have no way of measuring, experiencing, knowing the multiverse or the hidden variables at all but we have posited them because they make the theory work. I am not sure I agree with this line of reasoning because it seems to posit the necessity of an unknown entity to make our current observations work - which seems like a cop out really, no?


    Yeah I agree with you - and I think it's for this reason things like the hidden variables and multiverse are not too keenly promoted by most physicists and I personally prefer the original copenhagen interpretation posited by the pioneers of the theory even if it means we are left with a non-deterministic, non-local and observer-dependent reality - indeed why should we try and shape the theory so that it fits with the logic of what the human brain is used to (i.e. classical physics)? Though I would say that although hidden vaiables and multiverse do indeed seem as cop-outs that doesn't necessarily mean they are not possible.

    Quote
    It could be the case that there are infact hidden variables that make qm interactions completely deterministic but if we can never measure them or know them, they will always be an abstract construct - a bit like a deus ex machina used by writers to save a bad plot by giving their hero a superpower at the end of the book to defeat the bad guy. It just leaves a bad taste in the mouth.


    I agree somewhat, but I think my point was if we agree that things that are considered supernatural can be as real as things that are considered natural, then we could perhaps put hidden variables into the 'supernatural' category. We can never measure or know them in the conventional way - just like anything we would normally consider supernatural (although we can't dismiss their existence out of hand). On the flipside of this argument we can also say that some scientists are willing to propose things that are essentially supernatural only when it suits them but are all too willing to scoff at and ridicule other supernatural proposals. This of course relies on the argument that the only sensible criteria we have as labeling something supernatural is that the human mind, which is of course limited, does not have the capability to measure or know that something (at least not in the conventional scientific way).

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #128 - November 03, 2010, 04:39 PM

    i think these days i no longer ponder what 'God' is - i'm not sure it serves any purpose. at present to me personally the word 'God' has no intelligible meaning. i think perhaps it's only worthwile pondering the reality we are immersed in - this includes the natural scientific world but also what most people would consider 'supernatural'.


    ignosticism/theological noncognitivism ftw

    This is really just an extension of the maxim of defining terms, however there are those(ontological arguments especially) that assert some sort of objective standard as to what God is, which of course I find nonsensical.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #129 - November 03, 2010, 06:11 PM

    i think these days i no longer ponder what 'God' is - i'm not sure it serves any purpose. at present to me personally the word 'God' has no intelligible meaning. i think perhaps it's only worthwile pondering the reality we are immersed in - this includes the natural scientific world but also what most people would consider 'supernatural'.


     Afro And you can still hold on to the Muslim tag so your wife doesn't beat the shit out of you. Everybody's happy.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #130 - November 03, 2010, 09:57 PM

    dem Muslimah's b crazy

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #131 - November 08, 2010, 05:16 AM

    pantheism or naturalism.. as quoted by dawkins in his book... is just sexed up atheism..
     Wink sounds ok to me!
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #132 - November 08, 2010, 11:49 AM

    I don't say that Immanence is somehow an "opposite" to Transcendence. On an ultimate level God is "beyond" both. Transcendant also is neither "beyond" rational (if you mean rationality by which we make sense of the universe and what is within it) to me. Rather an understanding of the Transcendant brings rationality to everything that is required for us to percieve as properly when using rationality.

    I'm just giving my opinions(based upon my learnings of Hindu theology - which isnt expert). So don't take my word for it though.

    This to me is God as the "Transcendant"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-NHJffUIIo


    I can understand what you mean. This seems a lot like Henry Corbin's view which he calls the "active Imagination" in that the experiential grasping of god is not ordinary rationality but a super-rationality if you will - a true intelligence. Perhaps even the archetypal "wisdom" that platonists so often strive for. If you mean rationality in this sense then I can see how it is not really opposed to transcendence at all.

    That poem is fascinating. Thanks for posting. Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #133 - November 08, 2010, 07:20 PM

    I can understand what you mean. This seems a lot like Henry Corbin's view which he calls the "active Imagination" in that the experiential grasping of god is not ordinary rationality but a super-rationality if you will - a true intelligence. Perhaps even the archetypal "wisdom" that platonists so often strive for. If you mean rationality in this sense then I can see how it is not really opposed to transcendence at all.


    Ah cool. I'll check that out.

    That poem is fascinating. Thanks for posting. Smiley


    It isn't exactly a poem. Its [supposedly -  if you will] actually a revelation the Sage to whom this hymn is attributed to, received. The concept of revelation and linguistic analysis built regarding it is oldest in Hinduism but its emphasis is probably the weakest of all religions.

    Max Müller in an 1865 lecture stated

    Quote
    "In no country, I believe, has the theory of revelation been so minutely elaborated as in India. The name for revelation in Sanskrit is Sruti, which means hearing; and this title distinguished the Vedic hymns and, at a later time, the Brahmanas also, from all other works, which however sacred and authoritative to the Hindu mind, are admitted to have been composed by human authors. The Laws of Manu, for instance, are not revelation; they are not Sruti, but only Smriti, which means recollection of tradition. If these laws or any other work of authority can be proved on any point to be at variance with a single passage of the Veda, their authority is at once overruled. According to the orthodox views of Indian theologians, not a single line of the Veda was the work of human authors. The whole Veda is in some way or the other the work of the Deity; and even those who saw it were not supposed to be ordinary mortals, but beings raised above the level of common humanity, and less liable therefore to error in the reception of revealed truth. The views entertained by the orthodox theologians of India are far more minute and elaborate than those of the most extreme advocates of verbal inspiration in Europe. The human element, called paurusheyatva in Sanskrit, is driven out of every corner or hiding place, and as the Veda is held to have existed in the mind of the Deity before the beginning of time..."


    It it is deliberately poetic(rhyme/rythm) because the Vedas are recited in metres. The Vedas were transmitted orally before the invention of Devanagari. They are techniques employed for memorization and thus preservation.

    "In order to memorize the vast corpus of Vedic chants, the ancient Prophets(he means Sages or Rishis actually) put together techniques for recitation by using extremely precise combinations of sound..."

    2:54 onwards

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPcasmn0cRU

    The precision of the recitation is so acute that even the slightest mistake renders the whole recitation flawed. The example given to this is like that of a snake charmer playing his instrument, if he did one mistake the snake would strike.

    ^ this to me also raises doubt on the claim of Islam "that all other scriptures are corrupted". When you see systems of memorization developed and built in to the scriptures themselves (supposedly) revealed to the Sages of the Vedas, how can we easily dismiss it in favour of the Quran?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an_reading

    Recitation of the Quran is based upon the letters.

    And it isn't as precise as that of the Vedic chanting.
  • Re: Pantheism
     Reply #134 - November 08, 2010, 07:43 PM

    Where can I read the Vedas? Like a good translation.
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