Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"

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- mighty_cats
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
OP - November 03, 2010, 05:24 PM

Ive decided to copy+paste some of the topics from my discussion board on facebook, in the hopes that some of you might like the refutations to common islamic arguments.
http://www.facebook.com/board.php?uid=173697882645130

Rule of the thread : If you like the post then you need to 'like' (and hopefully) 'share' my 'Quran debunking community page'
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quran-Miracles-Debunked/173697882645130
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A usual argument from Muslims is to claim that the universe is designed for life, often with little-to-no thought on what they're actually stating.
Sure a pagan or perhaps a deist can make this sort of argument, but can a muslim? let's find out...

Let's say that one day, a god (an all powerful being above all limitations) decides he wants to make a planet for people to live on, so he makes earth...
But WHY does he make earth?

Because this particular size generates a strong enough field of gravity?
Because oxygen will remain in the atmosphere?
Because this particular distance gives us enough heat from the Sun?

An average Muslim will say yes, but that actually answers nothing...

Is god unable to alter the requirements for Gravity?
Is god unable to create people who don't require oxygen?
Is god unable to create beings that don't require sunlight or a certain amount of heat?

The point being made here is that an 'all powerful being' has no restrictions, therefor can do anything it wanted.
If it wanted life to exist inside a small ice comet, with no eyes and surviving on uranium, it would....OR is god unable to do these things and must comply to pre-determined specifications that it is unable to overcome for life to exist?, thus not the god of Islam?

Concluding that everything is 'fine tuned' for life demonstrates that 'god' was limited to certain factors, inwhich we could only exist if these particular factors were met....that is not an all powerful being known as 'allah'.

In conclusion:- Claiming 'fine tuning' actually debunks the God they believe supports the argument.
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Re: Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #1 - November 03, 2010, 05:29 PM

1: Life on Earth is fine tuned for Earth, not Earth for life.
2: Most of our solar system is barren, that's not a very good success rate for creating life.

But the argument is deeper than that. When people say that the "universe is fine tuned for life" they are talking about the ratios between the forces. If they were different then life might not be able to exist. Sure that's "life as we know it", but many physicists argue that no life at all would exist.

I think in this argument you are setting your goal too high. You are trying to disprove *any* god. I think you are playing into the hands of a typical theist trick. It goes like this

1: You cannot disprove the concept of "god"
2: Therefore MY god must be real

There are more people who will accept that Allah is not real than there are people who will accept that there is no god at all, you should concentrate on that in my opinion.

Go for quality, not quantity

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #2 - November 03, 2010, 05:32 PM

+1 - also defend proving Islam is false from an agnostic stance, rather than mentioning atheism - a much harder stance to defend and also irrelevent strawman in terms of the validity of Islam

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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #3 - November 03, 2010, 05:34 PM

I disagree to an extent, I pointed out that
"a pagan or a deist can make this sort of argument"
and stated that 'an all powerful being has no limitations'

That doesn't necessarily apply to any god (also, as stated), simply the ones with the attached characteristics, namely, 'Allah' and how the argument proves that this being can't be all powerful, as the argument asserts that pre-determined limitations are set on the being.

Also the part about Earth and the solar system, thats for a later topic (I was going to combat those later on)
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Re: Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #4 - November 03, 2010, 05:35 PM

Someone ages ago told me "I don't try to disprove god. I start from the premise that one or more gods could exist and then get the person to try to prove their religion". At first I thought this was a crap idea, but I learned the hard way that he was right

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #5 - November 03, 2010, 05:37 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on November 03, 2010, 05:34 PM
"a pagan or a deist can make this sort of argument"
and stated that 'an all powerful being has no limitations'

Sure, but your argument is pointless. You ask if god could not have altered gravity. Sure god could, it just didn't. If you see a green door you don't assume the painter was incapable of using red paint.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #6 - November 03, 2010, 05:38 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on November 03, 2010, 05:35 PM
Someone ages ago told me "I don't try to disprove god. I start from the premise that one or more gods could exist and then get the person to try to prove their religion". At first I thought this was a crap idea, but I learned the hard way that he was right

thats almost sig-worthy

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Re: Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #7 - November 03, 2010, 05:39 PM

Someone ages ago told me "I don't try to disprove god. I start from the premise that one or more gods could exist and then get the person to try to prove their religion". At first I thought this was a crap idea, but I learned the hard way that he was right - and Islam is fucking ace.

Is that better?

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http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #8 - November 03, 2010, 05:40 PM

Yes, but no one is arguing that the door was especially created by using its specific color as validation for that construct.
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #9 - November 03, 2010, 05:43 PM

MightyCats is a new Rationlizer in the making

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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #10 - November 03, 2010, 05:44 PM

I could also make an addition to the topic and say that
"if you exist, then things will always appear to be fine tuned, as local environments will always (in the overall) appear to be suited to you, even though things are reversed and you are actually suited to the environment."
Thus the fine tuned argument is void.

Better?
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #11 - November 03, 2010, 05:47 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on November 03, 2010, 05:40 PM
Yes, but no one is arguing that the door was especially created by using its specific color as validation for that construct.

You are missing the point. If there are 1 billion different ways you can make gravity work then you make it work in whichever one of those 1 billion you like the best. All you are actually doing is arguing from a position of ignorance "I don't know why God wouldn't have used a different form of gravity, therefore god didn't create gravity".

Make the argument if you wish, I'm not going to twist your arm; but if you want an honest opinion I'm happy to offer it

To go from theist to atheist people typically need to go through an agnostic stage first. The idea that their god does not exist is often quite alien to them, the idea that NO god exists will seem utterly ludicrous and it won't matter how good an argument you present. To disprove a religion you don't start by disproving god, you start by conceding some god might exist but their religion was not its creation.

As I said, I was once in your frame of mind. I later had to concede I was wrong. Wise men learn from the mistakes of fools

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #12 - November 03, 2010, 05:56 PM

Slight flaw in the argument here, perhaps I didn't make a detailed enough description in the original post, I will alter it.

Im not arguing that no god exists, I'm arguing that the characteristic of one type of god is invalid when cross referenced with a 'fine-tuning' argument if it's being used as a positive argument for it's existence.

To summarize:-

(1)
Argument = Certain ratio's in the universe (and earth) are met for our life to exist, therefor the universe is 'fine tuned' for us to exist.
Response= If the being is all powerful, we can exist in any ratio/way/situation it wanted, thus the fine tuned argument is void.

Possible response 2 = If we existed in a different way, those ratio's and environments would also appear to be ideal for us aswell (allowing for our existence), therefor the same argument would be made in that circumstance, aswell as any other.
(a conclusive apperence of 'fine tuning' in all circumstances that allow us to exist)

Conclusion = Argument is void when applied to certain gods with certain characteristics
(as it concludes that certain ratio's must be met for our existence, a contradiction to a being with no limitations)

Hope that clarrifys
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Re: Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #13 - November 03, 2010, 05:59 PM

You are still tackling it from the exact wrong end. Take the approach "I am not saying god doesn't exist, I am saying YOUR god doesn't exist."

If you want to use the universe as an argument use the awe of it to show how amazing the powers of god must be if it exists, and then compare it to the Quran. A book which is only beautiful in Arabic, even though humans are capable of writing books that are beautiful in all languages. A book which in places could mean two different things and could therefore be clearer, if it can be clearer then it can be improved, if it can be improved then it is imperfect.

Considering the amazing power of the god that apparently created the universe, why is it that this god can be out done by mere humans when it comes to literature?

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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #14 - November 03, 2010, 06:02 PM

Ahh, ok I see your argument now.
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #15 - November 03, 2010, 06:04 PM

Excellent. Rather than "Universe not so good" try "Universe great, so why is your religion so shit?" Answer: Your religion is man made.

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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #16 - November 03, 2010, 06:08 PM

I imagine you're a fan of Philhellenes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk&feature=bulletin
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #17 - November 03, 2010, 06:14 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on November 03, 2010, 05:47 PM

To go from theist to atheist people typically need to go through an agnostic stage first. The idea that their god does not exist is often quite alien to them, the idea that NO god exists will seem utterly ludicrous and it won't matter how good an argument you present. To disprove a religion you don't start by disproving god, you start by conceding some god might exist but their religion was not its creation.

As I said, I was once in your frame of mind. I later had to concede I was wrong. Wise men learn from the mistakes of fools

By making the case for atheism, you are asking accept to take 2 leaps of faith & making it twice as hard to argue your case, when all you need to do is argue for one.

Its like asking somebody to knock down a a building, which you can do using a bulldozer. No need to pulverise the bricks too!

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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #18 - November 03, 2010, 06:15 PM

I wrote an essay on the plausibility of design arguments for philosophy just last week, contesting the fine-tuning argument espoused by both William Lane Craig and Richard Swinburne. I argued in much the same way, that the central premise of the fine-tuning argument, that certain constants must be the way they are in order for life to be possible, completely contradicts the notion of an omnipotent, theistic God.
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Re: Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #19 - November 03, 2010, 06:52 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on November 03, 2010, 06:08 PM
I imagine you're a fan of Philhellenes

My argument is my own, not Phil's

Some of his videos are okay, but some of them are not. I think he has a bit of a cult following where everyone tells him his videos are ace even when they are not. In my opinion the reality is that he makes some good ones and some not so good ones. I actually didn't like this video at all, I came close to turning it off. It was only the images he used that kept me watching, I find my own inflections more awe inspiring.

But still, lots of people seem to like it so I am happy to assume I am the odd one out.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #20 - November 03, 2010, 07:31 PM

Sagan is perhaps a better example..

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Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #21 - November 03, 2010, 07:34 PM

Quote from: IsLame on November 03, 2010, 07:31 PM
Sagan is perhaps a better example..

Yes, Sagan was certainly an inspiration.

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Re: Re: "The Universe is fine tuned for life"
Reply #22 - November 03, 2010, 08:53 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on November 03, 2010, 05:24 PM
Ive decided to copy+paste some of the topics from my discussion board on facebook, in the hopes that some of you might like the refutations to common islamic arguments.
http://www.facebook.com/board.php?uid=173697882645130

Rule of the thread : If you like the post then you need to 'like' (and hopefully) 'share' my 'Quran debunking community page'
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quran-Miracles-Debunked/173697882645130
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A usual argument from Muslims is to claim that the universe is designed for life, often with little-to-no thought on what they're actually stating.
Sure a pagan or perhaps a deist can make this sort of argument, but can a muslim? let's find out...

Let's say that one day, a god (an all powerful being above all limitations) decides he wants to make a planet for people to live on, so he makes earth...
But WHY does he make earth?

Because this particular size generates a strong enough field of gravity?
Because oxygen will remain in the atmosphere?
Because this particular distance gives us enough heat from the Sun?

An average Muslim will say yes, but that actually answers nothing...

Is god unable to alter the requirements for Gravity?
Is god unable to create people who don't require oxygen?
Is god unable to create beings that don't require sunlight or a certain amount of heat?

The point being made here is that an 'all powerful being' has no restrictions, therefor can do anything it wanted.
If it wanted life to exist inside a small ice comet, with no eyes and surviving on uranium, it would....OR is god unable to do these things and must comply to pre-determined specifications that it is unable to overcome for life to exist?, thus not the god of Islam?

Concluding that everything is 'fine tuned' for life demonstrates that 'god' was limited to certain factors, inwhich we could only exist if these particular factors were met....that is not an all powerful being known as 'allah'.

In conclusion:- Claiming 'fine tuning' actually debunks the God they believe supports the argument.

Bravo!
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