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 Topic: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins

 (Read 6373 times)
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  • The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     OP - November 12, 2010, 03:08 PM

    Going through this book at the moment, and thought I'd post my favourite bits here

    On genes..

    Quote
    Ways of increasing stability and of decreasing rivals' stability became more elaborate and more efficient. Some of them may even have 'discovered' how to break up molecules of rival varieties chemically, and to use the building blocks so released for making their own copies. These proto-carnivores simultaneously obtained food and removed competing rivals. Other replicators perhaps discovered how to protect themselves, either chemically, or by building a physical wall of protein around themselves. This may have been how the first living cells appeared.

    Replicators began not merely to exist, but to construct for themselves containers, vehicles for their continued existence. The replicators that survived were the ones that built survival machines for themselves to live in. The first survival machines probably consisted of nothing more than a protective coat. But making a living got steadily harder as new rivals arose with better and more effective survival machines. Survival machines got bigger and more elaborate, and the process was cumulative and progressive.

    Was there to be any end to the gradual improvement in the techniques and artifices used by the replicators to ensure their own continuation in the world? There would be plenty of time for improvement. What weird engines of self-preservation would the millennia bring forth? Four thousand million years on, what was to be the fate of the ancient replicators? They did not die out, for they are past masters of the survival arts.

    But do not look for them floating loose in the sea; they gave up that cavalier freedom long ago. Now they swarm in huge colonies, safe inside gigantic lumbering robots, sealed off from the outside world, communicating with it by tortuous indirect routes, manipulating it by remote control. They are in you and in me; they created us, body and mind; and their preservation is the ultimate rationale for our existence. They have come a long way, those replicators. Now they go by the name of genes, and we are their survival machines.


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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #1 - November 12, 2010, 03:19 PM

    In this part Dawkins discusses 'foul brood' disease in bees - its an interesting case study (he uses to demonstrate several important points but you'll need to refer to pg 61 to see specifically which ones - see http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/selfishgene-dowkins.pdf)

    Quote
    Honey bees suffer from an infectious disease called foul brood. This attacks the grubs in their cells. Of the domestic breeds used by beekeepers, some are more at risk from foul brood than others, and it turns out that the difference between strains is, at least in some cases, a behavioural one. There are so-called hygienic strains which quickly stamp out epidemics by locating infected grubs, pulling them from their cells and throwing them out of the hive. The susceptible strains are susceptible because they do not practise this hygienic infanticide.

    The behaviour actually involved in hygiene is quite complicated. The workers have to locate the cell of each diseased grub, remove the wax cap from the cell, pull out the larva, drag it through the door of the hive, and throw it on the rubbish tip.
    Doing genetic experiments with bees is quite a complicated business for various reasons. Worker bees themselves do not ordinarily reproduce, and so you have to cross a queen of one strain with a drone (=male) of the other, and then look at the behaviour of the daughter workers. This is what W. G. Rothenbuhler did. He found that all first-generation hybrid daughter hives were non-hygienic: the behaviour of their hygienic parent seemed to have been lost, although as things turned out the hygienic genes were still there but were recessive, like human genes for blue eyes. When Rothenbuhler 'back-crossed' first-generation hybrids with a pure hygienic strain (again of course using queens and drones), he obtained a most beautiful result.

    The daughter hives fell into three groups. One group showed perfect hygienic behaviour, a second showed no hygienic behaviour at all, and the third went half way. This last group uncapped the wax cells of diseased grubs, but they did not follow through and throw out the larvae. Rothenbuhler surmised that there might be two separate genes, one gene for uncapping, and one gene for throwing-out.

    Normal hygienic strains possess both genes, susceptible strains possess the alleles—rivals— of both genes instead. The hybrids who only went half way presumably possessed the uncapping gene (in double dose) but not the throwing-out gene. Rothenbuhler guessed that his experimental group of apparently totally non-hygienic bees might conceal a subgroup possessing the throwing-out gene, but unable to show it because they lacked the uncapping gene. He confirmed this most elegantly by removing caps himself. Sure enough, half of the apparently non-hygienic bees thereupon showed perfectly normal throwing-out behaviour.*

    This story illustrates a number of important points which came up in the previous chapter. It shows that it can be perfectly proper to speak of a 'gene for behaviour so-and-so' even if we haven't the faintest idea of the chemical chain of embryonic causes leading from gene to behaviour. The chain of causes could even turn out to involve learning. For example, it could be that the uncapping gene exerts its effect by giving bees a taste for infected wax. This means they will find the eating of the wax caps covering disease-victims rewarding, and will therefore tend to repeat it. Even if this is how the gene works, it is still truly a gene 'for uncapping' provided that, other things being equal, bees possessing the gene end up by uncapping, and bees not possessing the gene do not uncap.
    Secondly it illustrates the fact that genes 'cooperate' in their effects on the behaviour of the communal survival machine. The throwing-out gene is useless unless it is accompanied by the uncapping gene and vice versa. Yet the genetic experiments show equally clearly that the two genes are in principle quite separable in their journey through the generations.

    As far as their useful work is concerned you can think of them as a single cooperating unit, but as replicating genes they are two free and independent agents.


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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #2 - November 12, 2010, 03:24 PM

    I just read The Selfish Gene about a month ago.  The selfish replicator and cost/benefit analysis of reciprocal altruism is fascinating along with the supporting subjects like game theory and the introduction of the 'meme'.  Dawkins is always very logical, accessible and entertaining in his writing.
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #3 - November 12, 2010, 03:27 PM

    whats a telomeme btw?

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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #4 - November 12, 2010, 03:29 PM

    Some facts & figures on our current level of unsustainable population growth  mysmilie_977

    Quote
    But if the population continued to increase at the present rate, it would take less than 500 years to reach the point where the people, packed in a standing position, formed a solid human carpet over the whole area of the continent. This is so, even if we assume them to be very skinny—a not unrealistic assumption.

    In 1,000 years from now they would be standing on each other's shoulders more than a million deep.

    By 2,000 years, the mountain of people, travelling outwards at the speed of light, would have reached the edge of the known universe.


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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #5 - November 12, 2010, 03:29 PM

    whats a telomeme btw?


    A meme that can infect you by telephone?

  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #6 - November 12, 2010, 03:31 PM

    Some facts & figures on our current level of unsustainable population growth  mysmilie_977



    Don't worry, we'll kill ourselves long before that happens. I just don't want to be around when the shit hits the fan  dance

  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #7 - November 12, 2010, 03:41 PM

    A meme that can infect you by telephone?

     Cheesy

  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #8 - November 12, 2010, 03:45 PM

    whats a telomeme btw?


    When I chose my username, I decided to make up a new word.  The 'telo' is defined as follows:

    Quote from: Collins English Dictionary
    telo- before a vowel, tel-
    combining form
    1. complete; final; perfect telophase
    2. end; at the end telencephalon


    ...and we all know what meme means so it could mean "final meme", "complete meme" or "end meme".  I also liked this word because it's similar to telomere, the DNA sections that reside on the ends of chromosomes.  Telomeres are key to protecting cells from aging so I was looking for an analogous way to describe protected ideas.
     

     
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #9 - November 12, 2010, 03:48 PM

    A meme that can infect you by telephone?


    That would have been Telememe but I kind of like that too.
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #10 - November 12, 2010, 04:04 PM

    That would have been Telememe but I kind of like that too.




    Telomeme, Telememe, Tel Aviv, same difference  grin12

  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #11 - November 12, 2010, 04:46 PM

    Nice thread Islame. I need to read that book because I still feel ignorant about all the intricacies of genetic biology as far as evolution and natural selection process is concerned.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #12 - November 12, 2010, 04:55 PM

    Nice thread Islame. I need to read that book because I still feel ignorant about all the intricacies of genetic biology as far as evolution and natural selection process is concerned.

    Shame, because this stuff is gold.  Weve swapped superstitious scriptures for scientific journals, call it the Atheists bible if you like.

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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #13 - November 12, 2010, 05:58 PM


    An article from 2008 indicates proof for the existence of the 'selfish gene':

    Quote from: Biology & Nature
    A new discovery by a scientist from The University of Western Ontario provides conclusive evidence which supports decades-old evolutionary doctrines long accepted as fact. Since renowned British biologist Richard Dawkins ("The God Delusion") introduced the concept of the 'selfish gene' in 1976, scientists the world over have hailed the theory as a natural extension to the work of Charles Darwin.


    Here's a link to the full article:

    http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/06/20/new.discovery.proves.selfish.gene.exists

    In very recent news (November 2010), it was discovered that, like the resulting sterile female worker bees that Dawkins described in The Selfish Gene, snakes (boas) can reproduce asexually (parthenogenesis).

    Here's a link to that article:
    http://news.mongabay.com/2010/1103-hance_asexualboa.html

  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #14 - November 12, 2010, 06:19 PM

    Dawkins didn't introduce the concept of selfish genes. ^^

    This passage, "Now they swarm in huge colonies, safe inside gigantic lumbering robots & manipulating it by remote control. They are in you and in me; they created us & their preservation is the ultimate rationale for our existence. We are their survival machines." together with the idea of concious beings thwarting their selfish genes reminds me of the hollywood 'ghost in the machine' (irobot/terminator/martrix thingie) concept. We, the robots, overpowering the genetic programmers. A lot is always made of humans doing what's 'best for our genes', men being entitled to propagate 'their' genes, but I don't consider that particularly important, any more.

    I'm on the 4th chapter of 'the extended phenotype' now, it's more of a science paper than a popular science book, gets a bit technical in places, but still worth reading if you have an interest in this stuff.
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #15 - November 12, 2010, 06:27 PM

    Its what Dawkins does best, takes an old idea and popularises it - he did the same with the word memes & now is largely credited for the idea.

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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #16 - November 12, 2010, 06:31 PM

    I will say though that talking of genes as if they were concious beings (I know he regularly tries to translate explanations back into 'gene language') can be misleading. Makes you expect certain things that you shouldn't - it's easy to forget that natural selection has no foresight, nor is it a means to an end.
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #17 - November 12, 2010, 06:34 PM

    I will say though that talking of genes as if they were concious beings (I know he regularly tries to translate explanations back into 'gene language') can be misleading. Makes you expect certain things that you shouldn't - it's easy to forget that natural selection has no foresight, nor is it a means to an end.


    He's very careful to point that out as he uses these analogies.  I've read four of his books and noticed such disclaimers in each one.  I remember in The Blind Watchmaker he even criticised others for using the analogies too much.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #18 - November 12, 2010, 06:44 PM

    I know he does. Like I said, I'm aware that he usually also explains things with the appropriate terminology. The Selfish Gene doesn't go especially deeply into evolutionary biology, but with some of the more intricate arguments about adaptionism in his other works, it's easy to lose sight of what's really happening.
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #19 - November 12, 2010, 07:04 PM

    I will say though that talking of genes as if they were concious beings (I know he regularly tries to translate explanations back into 'gene language') can be misleading. Makes you expect certain things that you shouldn't - it's easy to forget that natural selection has no foresight, nor is it a means to an end.

    in fairness he only does that so common man can relate & understand these theories- I'd far prefer that to geek speak that remains the preserve of the educated elite, and leaves everyone else in the darkness.

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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #20 - November 12, 2010, 07:24 PM

    I haven't read The Blind Watchmaker or The Extended Phenotype.  In your opinions, are these as readable and influential as his others?
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #21 - November 12, 2010, 09:26 PM

    Ive not read the Blind Watchmaker yet, my impression is that its more philosophical. afaik the selfish gene is more famous  influential as its the one I hear more about.

    What do others who've read both think, the selfish gene or the blind watchmaker?

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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #22 - November 13, 2010, 12:49 AM

    I haven't read The Blind Watchmaker or The Extended Phenotype.  In your opinions, are these as readable and influential as his others?


    In my opinion, yes.

    The Blind Watchmaker is my personal favourite so far (I've also read The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype, and Climbing Mount Improbable, which comes in as my second favourite).

    (IsLame, what do you mean by it being more philosophical?)

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #23 - November 13, 2010, 12:58 AM

    Just guessing - The selfish gene is more about the stats surrounding the biology & science of DNA, & proving his conclusions, whereas I cant see how he could do that with the subject of the Blind Watchmaker, well at least to a similar extent.  But then its possible if he tackles the subject in the same way I guess  Huh?

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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #24 - November 13, 2010, 01:17 AM

    The dating game by Dawkins - wow, this guy is a real romantic!

    Quote
    Like Maynard Smith, we shall use some arbitrary hypothetical values for the various costs and benefits. To be more general it can be done with algebraic symbols, but numbers are easier to understand. Suppose that the genetic pay-off gained by each parent when a child is reared successfully is +15 units. The cost of rearing one child, the cost of all its food, all the time spent looking after it, and all the risks taken on its behalf, is -20 units. The cost is expressed as negative, because it is 'paid out' by the parents. Also negative is the cost of wasting time in prolonged courtship. Let this cost be -3 units.

    Imagine we have a population in which all the females are coy, and all the males are faithful. It is an ideal monogamous society. In each couple, the male and the female both get the same average pay-off. They get +15 for each child reared; they share the cost of rearing it (-20) equally between the two of them, an average of -10 each. They both pay the -3 point penalty for wasting time in prolonged courtship. The average pay-off for each is therefore +15-10-3 = +2.

    Now suppose a single fast female enters the population. She does very well. She does not pay the cost of delay, because she does not indulge in prolonged courtship. Since all the males in the population are faithful, she can reckon on finding a good father for her children whoever she mates with. Her average pay-off per child is+15 - 10 = +5. She is 3 units better off than her coy rivals. Therefore fast genes will start to spread.

    If the success of fast females is so great that they come to predominate in the population, things will start to change in the male camp too. So far, faithful males have had a monopoly. But now if a philanderer male arises in the population, he starts to do better than his faithful rivals. In a population where all the females are fast, the pickings for a philanderer male are rich indeed. He gets the +15 points if a child is successfully reared, and he pays neither of the two costs. What this lack of cost mainly means to him is that he is free to go off and mate with new females. Each of his unfortunate wives struggles on alone with the child, paying the entire -20 point cost, although she does not pay anything for wasting time in courting. The net pay-off for a fast female when she encounters a philanderer male is+15 - 20 = -5; the pay-off to the philanderer himself is +15. In a population in which all the females are fast, philanderer genes will spread like wildfire.

    If the philanderers increase so successfully that they come to dominate the male part of the population, the fast females will be in dire straits. Any coy female would have a strong advantage. If a coy female encounters a philanderer male, no business results. She insists on prolonged courtship; he refuses and goes off in search of another female. Neither partner pays the cost of wasting time. Neither gains anything either, since no child is produced. This gives a net pay-off of zero for a coy female in a population where all the males are philanderers. Zero may not seem much, but it is better than the -5 which is the average score for a fast female. Even if a fast female decided to leave her young after being deserted by a philanderer, she would still have paid the considerable cost of an egg. So, coy genes start to spread through the population again.

    To complete the hypothetical cycle, when coy females increase in numbers so much that they predominate, the philanderer males, who had such an easy time with the fast females, start to feel the pinch. Female after female insists on a long and arduous courtship. The philanderers flit from female to female, and always the story is the same. The net pay-off for a philanderer male when all the females are coy is zero. Now if a single faithful male should turn up, he is the only one with whom the coy females will mate. His net pay-off is +2, better than that of the philanderers. So, faithful genes start to increase, and we come full circle


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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #25 - November 13, 2010, 01:48 AM

    And he concludes that section with

    Quote
    If you do the sums, it turns out that a population in which 5/6 of the females are coy, and 5/8 of the males are faithful, is evolutionarily stable. This is, of course, just for the particular arbitrary numbers that we started out with, but it is easy to work out what the stable ratios would be for any other arbitrary assumptions.


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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #26 - November 13, 2010, 01:56 AM

    Just guessing - The selfish gene is more about the stats surrounding the biology & science of DNA, & proving his conclusions, whereas I cant see how he could do that with the subject of the Blind Watchmaker, well at least to a similar extent.  But then its possible if he tackles the subject in the same way I guess  Huh?


    Oh, I get you now.  In that respect, I'd agree with you.  He puts forward various theories of the time, for example for abiogenesis he even delves into clay theory and it's more of a statement on the current progress of science than one of fact.  Though the book is still mostly surrounding natural selection in which case many solid theories are nicely argued.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #27 - November 15, 2010, 02:48 PM

    In my opinion, yes.

    The Blind Watchmaker is my personal favourite so far (I've also read The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype, and Climbing Mount Improbable, which comes in as my second favourite).

    (IsLame, what do you mean by it being more philosophical?)


    Okay, I'll keep my eyes open for The Blind Watchmaker.  The thing I love about these old books is the possibility of finding them cheap in a used book store.
  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #28 - November 15, 2010, 05:55 PM

    Just been face****ing a science teacher, who claimed the Selfish Gene was a more interesting book.  So the votes are one all here.

    Omaar K - it looks like you read them both, in fact I thought you were going to give marks out of 10 for all the books that you read?  Anyhow if you read this, let me know which one you thought was better..

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  • Re: The Selfish Gene - Richard Dawkins
     Reply #29 - November 15, 2010, 06:46 PM

    Thing with Dawkins is he is more accessible. I love his game theory chapter. The huge problem I have with books it that, sometimes I read but don't concentrate then forget what the fuck the last page was about, I mean it has to be griping for me. I am such a lazy reader that is why I prefer audio books.

    At the moment I am re-reading The Elegent Universe by Brain Geene. Islame if you like the Selfish Gene, you'll enjoy this book trust me kid.  

    Here is a documentary partly based on the book, hosted by Brain Geene himself, he is the modern Carl Sagan!
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1322493346942339345#
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