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 Topic: Discussion on freewill with friends.

 (Read 22944 times)
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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #30 - November 15, 2010, 12:34 AM

    The definition was: "To qualify as an item of knowledge, a belief must not only be true and justified, the justification of the belief must necessitate its truth. In other words, the justification for the belief must be infallible."

    If God's knowledge is infallible, what he knows must neccesarily be true. So if he knows what our actions will be, we necessarily have to carry them out as he knows we will.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #31 - November 15, 2010, 10:33 AM

    If God's knowledge is infallible, what he knows must neccesarily be true. So if he knows what our actions will be, we necessarily have to carry them out as he knows we will.

    I know what you are saying, this is the argument that all ex-theists make.  But you phrased the bolded bit in a way to imply we are carrying out his orders, which in fact we are not. Like I said he is simply predicting them, it is us doing the action.  Its a subtle yet important distinction, which put the onus back onto us.

    The real paradox here is how can anyone predict with 100% certainty without controlling the actions of another.  I can see it, but only just.  And thats because I am seeing the whole thing through a theists eyes, the ones who accept the reality of a mythical superbeing with invincible superpowers is in charge of the world.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #32 - November 15, 2010, 10:49 AM

    I know what you are saying, this is the argument that all ex-theists make.  But you phrased the bolded bit in a way to imply we are carrying out his orders, which in fact we are not.


    Not his orders, his knowledge. If there is even a possibility of us doing anything contrary to what he considers himself to know, the his knowledge isn't infallible. If there is no possibility... then no free will for us. I don't see how you can have free will without options.


    Quote
    The real paradox here is how can anyone predict with 100% certainty without controlling the actions of another.  I can see it, but only just.  And thats because I am seeing the whole thing through a theists eyes, the ones who accept the reality of a mythical superbeing with invincible superpowers is in charge of the world.


    Lol, a theist just gives names to concepts that don't make sense and he himself doesn't actually understand, and then bothers the rest of us with trying to point out the fallacies.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #33 - November 15, 2010, 11:15 AM

    But really, let's leave God's omniscience out of it for the moment.

    Think about what free-will is actually supposed to be. It's a central concept in islam - its justification for punishment, its attempt at holding our souls responsible for our actions. Muslims recognise that there are constraints or limits on what we can do. And from a scientific point of view, we know things are either determined or random (or a bit of each, I guess). Unless I'm missing something, there is no other option. If something is determined, then the responsibility for an event lies at the determiner, the first cause/ prime mover - in other words, God. If God wants punish someone for an evil you commit, he will have to punish himself. If it's a random event then we cannot aportion blame.

    Most pople talk about having 'choice'. "I chose to eat a bacon sandwich", though it's immediately obvious to anyone who spends a minute thinking about that statement that it was determined by a variety of factors (how hungry they felt, what they'd had earlier, what nutrients their body was craving, what was available etc) and if the universe is deterministic then there was never any alternative. If the Universe is indeterministic then I guess there were possible alternatives, but the one realised was so by chance and probability. Either way our 'souls' are blameless.

    Enter free will, which supposedly renders us blameable. But what exactly is it supposed to be? The way it's used makes it synonymous with ignorance. You can see certain influences, certain detemining factors, and beyond that everything is done by 'free will'. "Sure I had a cheeseburger because I was hungry and had just seen an ad for it, but that only influenced me, I still could have chosen not to". What on earth does this mean?

    Consider two people, physically identical in every way, had exactly the same experiences, to the finest detail, and are faced with the same choice. If 'free will' exists it is conceivable that they would make different decisions. How? As soon as you introduce an influence, a reason, a 'because'... we are back to where we were - causality. If there is no 'because', then how is it any different from randomness? Things are either caused or chanced, and neither is free-will.

    Free-will isn't a concept, it's just the process of apportioning blame/credit. It's the point at which you cut the causal chain (or single out the probabilistic event) and then name 'choice'. Even God cannot be said to have free will. He is supposedly unaffectable and needless, what would cause a desire to manifest itself in such a being? If he wants... if he wills... then it's as if he is subject to laws and circumstances that he had no role in assigning to himself. An omnipotent being would only be truly free if he rids himself of his last bounds - his desires... he will be free if he destroys his will. But 'free will'? It makes as much sense as a square circle to me.

    Yet people accept, and I assume understand, the concept of 'free will'. What am I missing?

    (Note: I use free will in the Muslim sense.)

    *waits for z10 to disagree"
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #34 - November 15, 2010, 11:24 AM

    "Free Will" is a label that theists have applied to a disorganised collection of different ideas and conceptualisations, some contradicting each other and in direct conflict so that the argument falls apart due to its own flaws.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #35 - November 15, 2010, 11:55 AM

    Not his orders, his knowledge......I don't see how you can have free will without options.

    You say his knowledge determines our actions.  They say our actions determine his knowledge.

    Quote
    a theist just gives names to concepts that don't make sense and he himself doesn't actually understand, and then bothers the rest of us with trying to point out the fallacies.

    Yep, they tend to accept rather than to wonder.  Sometimes its a good thing, and I wish I was more like that.

    Humans need an answer for everything.  If science cannot provide an explanation, then it just tends to be put into the God Box. 

    The God Box is amazing, it has an answer for everything.  And the answers it gives are actually what you want to hear, what you want it to tell you.  There's no sadness, no sorrow, no misery, but a reason for everything.  It even tells you the best part will come later, when you pass into the other realm.

    The God box is in direct conflict with science, because it already claims to have answered everything.  And the minute you encroach onto this territory, well, then you're in trouble.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #36 - November 15, 2010, 12:07 PM

    You say his knowledge determines our actions.  They say our actions determine his knowledge.


    Is he omnscient before I perform an action?

    Quote
    Yep, they tend to accept rather than to wonder.  Sometimes its a good thing, and I wish I was more like that.


    You know, there was a time when I could have given anything to back to it. Blissful ignorance...

    But not anymore. It's a hollow sort of joy. I think you need to feel proper shit to experience proper joy. My extreme lows tend to be followed by proportional highs.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #37 - November 15, 2010, 12:12 PM

    Is he omnscient before I perform an action?

    Yes

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #38 - November 15, 2010, 12:15 PM

    But you say my action determines his knowledge, in which case before I perform the action he doesn't have that knowledge. Hence he isn't omniscient...
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #39 - November 15, 2010, 12:21 PM

    But you say my action determines his knowledge, in which case before I perform the action he doesn't have that knowledge. Hence he isn't omniscient...

    not if he can predict your actions

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #40 - November 15, 2010, 12:22 PM

    But the claim is that Allah's knowledge is infallible. See the link I posted above.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #41 - November 15, 2010, 12:27 PM

    But the claim is that Allah's knowledge is infallible.

    Yes I know  Huh?

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #42 - November 15, 2010, 12:37 PM

    So it's more than just a prediction. ""To qualify as an item of knowledge, a belief must not only be true and justified, the justification of the belief must necessitate its truth. In other words, the justification for the belief must be infallible."

    If his knowledge is infallible, it must be necessarily true. If its necessarily true, then there no other possibilities. If he is omniscient before we perform an action (if his knowledge is infallible,) then that action must happen, and it must happen the way he knew it to. If there is even a possibility that it could have happened any other way, then his knowledge wasnt infallible. Hence if he is truly omniscient before we perform an action, then there is no choice for us. Therefore no free will.

    I'm sorry I don't see the loophole.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #43 - November 15, 2010, 12:43 PM

    Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
    ~ An-Nur 35

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #44 - November 15, 2010, 12:44 PM

    Well that clears that up.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #45 - November 15, 2010, 01:08 PM

    Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
    ~ An-Nur 35

    This is the wisest line in all of the quran.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #46 - November 15, 2010, 05:05 PM

    Hence if he is truly omniscient before we perform an action, then there is no choice for us. Therefore no free will.

    I'm sorry I don't see the loophole.

    Because he would know what choice you eventually made.

    Your argument certainly points out the paradox of making a 100% reliable prediction within our current axioms, but it does not stop it from possibly being true outside of them -  like I said earlier, we are dealing with a supernatural entity which muslims understand to work outside the realms of our current realms of understanding (& so should we when discussing it).  

    Its able to do anything, its omnipotent, so it could make a 100% accurate prediction and still give you free-will.

    I am not sure of the mechanism it could use or even how something can make a 100% reliable predication-but like I repeat these facets are taken for granted.  Perhaps Allah is infinitely aware of his creation, so he can understand the mechanisms of decision making with the genes & environment he gave us.  Perhaps he can time travel or something like that.  This would enable him to see what you did with your free-will.  

    Both of these examples show that for an infinite being its possible that free-will & pre-destination can co-exist in theory. QED.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #47 - November 15, 2010, 05:16 PM


    Its able to do anything, its omnipotent, so it could make a 100% accurate prediction and still give you free-will.



    By this logic there are no contradictions in Islam. Useless tautology. Muslims  Roll Eyes

    Im still far more interested in what free will itself is (in islam). I've racked my brains for ages and I still don't get it. What exactly is it supposed to be?  Huh?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #48 - November 15, 2010, 06:08 PM

    By this logic there are no contradictions in Islam.

    Not really but like I said at the beginning, we shoud focus on the more definite & concrete examples otherwise we end up on a mind-f**k merry-go-round

    The Quran does have contradictions such as the number of days it takes to create the earth, whether christians can go to heaven - one part it says no, some part is says yes, (cant remember the actual references, but they are in the blog in my sig if you want them)
    Quote
    Im still far more interested in what free will itself is (in islam). I've racked my brains for ages and I still don't get it. What exactly is it supposed to be?  Huh?

    Allah doesnt intervene in your ethical decision making.

    This is where you can really hit them with the quote in the Quran I gave earlier about Allah hardening our hearts.

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #49 - November 15, 2010, 06:11 PM

    Not really but like I said at the beginning, we shoud focus on the more definite & concrete examples otherwise we end up on a mind-f**k merry-go-round

    The Quran does have contradictions such as the number of days it takes to create the earth, whether christians can go to heaven - one part it says no, some part is says yes, (cant remember the actual references, but they are in the blog in my sig if you want them)


    But if Allah is omnipotent he can reconcile the apparent contradiction.  sheikh

    Quote
    Allah doesnt intervene in your ethical decision making.



    Uh huh, and what is 'decision making'?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #50 - November 15, 2010, 06:17 PM

    Uh huh, and what is 'decision making'?

    whether you should pray, eat pork... but I am sure each Muslim has his own personal definition

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #51 - November 15, 2010, 06:19 PM

    And by what process do they make those decisions?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #52 - November 15, 2010, 06:47 PM

    Its not really free will anyway if you're being blackmailed by a big raging bastard in the sky.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #53 - November 15, 2010, 06:57 PM

    And by what process do they make those decisions?

    not sure how to answer this in a concise way, the process of decision-making is a very complicated debated area - what point do you want to make?

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #54 - November 15, 2010, 07:14 PM

    That I can't see what 'making a decision' would actually involve. :/
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #55 - November 15, 2010, 07:43 PM

    That I can't see what 'making a decision' would actually involve. :/

    probably no different from the way you make decisions, but with the added complication of 'Islam' added into the mental mix

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #56 - November 15, 2010, 07:46 PM

    probably no different from the way you make decisions,


    Yes, and how is that?!?!
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #57 - November 15, 2010, 07:57 PM

    Quote
    Decision making can be regarded as the mental processes (cognitive process) resulting in the selection of a course of action among several alternatives. Every decision making process produces a final choice.[1] The output can be an action or an opinion of choice.

     

    Quote
    Decision-Making Steps
    When in an organization and faced with a difficult decision, there are several steps one can take to ensure the best possible solutions will be decided. These steps are put into seven effective ways to go about this decision making process (McMahon 2007).

    The first step - Outline your goal and outcome. This will enable decision makers to see exactly what they are trying to accomplish and keep them on a specific path.

    The second step - Gather data. This will help decision makers have actual evidence to help them come up with a solution.

    The third step - Brainstorm to develop alternatives. Coming up with more than one solution ables you to see which one can actually work.

    The fourth step - List pros and cons of each alternative. With the list of pros and cons, you can eliminate the solutions that have more cons than pros, making your decision easier.

    The fifth step - Make the decision. Once you analyze each solution, you should pick the one that has many pros, and the one that everyone can agree with.

    The sixth step - Immediately take action. Once the decision is picked, you should implement it right away.

    The seventh step - Learn from, and reflect on the decision making. This step allows you to see what you did right and wrong when coming up, and putting the decision to use.


    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_making)

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  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #58 - November 15, 2010, 08:01 PM

    Yes, and those 'decisions' are either caused, or random. They've just selected a certain section of the causal chain and called it 'the decision'. It's not an actual break from the chain, and if it (or any part of it) were, if it fundamentally is an event that is not an effect, it would have to be a random event. What other alternative is there? That ^^ is just a description of will, what makes it (or would make it) free will, in the Muslim sense?
  • Re: Discussion on freewill with friends.
     Reply #59 - November 15, 2010, 08:41 PM

     Huh?

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