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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: How do you feel about existing without an explanation to the overall why or how of it??
  • I know so I'm good - 1 (5.3%)
  • Happy not to know - 3 (15.8%)
  • Not bothered by it - 8 (42.1%)
  • Bothered by it - 2 (10.5%)
  • Driven mad by it - 5 (26.3%)
  • Total Voters: 19

 Topic: Existence minus explanation

 (Read 4069 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Existence minus explanation
     OP - November 22, 2010, 06:05 AM

    I wonder if this is a concern for others who also went from living with an explanation to finding out there isn't one.

    Sustainable low cost pleasure...
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #1 - November 22, 2010, 06:13 AM

    Existence of what exactly?
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #2 - November 22, 2010, 08:04 AM

    the last one, sort of, but I think it's the not knowing whether or not there is one, and if so, what it is, that is maddening
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #3 - November 22, 2010, 08:42 AM

    You only need explain how the first unicells came about and the rest ( increasing complexity, etc) is history. And I think we've done that.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #4 - November 22, 2010, 09:25 AM

    I am happy not to know.

    Doubt causes curiosity and curiosity is what makes me wake up every morning and see the world as something worth experiencing.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #5 - November 22, 2010, 09:26 AM

    It's a bit like... being able to watch a movie or read a book WITHOUT knowing what the story is about.
    If I knew it before hand I would not even pick it up.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #6 - November 22, 2010, 10:23 AM

    I'm not bothered by it. Absolute truth and knowledge I see to be an impossibility, so I just find it intellectually honest to accept the things I do not know.

    However, I'm driven mad by not knowing whether the Riemann Hypothesis is true or whether P = NP but that's different I suppose.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #7 - November 22, 2010, 11:09 AM

    I'm not bothered by it. Absolute truth and knowledge I see to be an impossibility, so I just find it intellectually honest to accept the things I do not know.

    However, I'm driven mad by not knowing whether the Riemann Hypothesis is true or whether P = NP but that's different I suppose.


    To say that "there in no absolute truth" is in itself an absolute truth statement.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #8 - November 22, 2010, 11:28 AM

    A few lines of vague text in a book of ancient and inferior oral traditions might have served as some semblance of an explanation or momentarily captured my imagination as a child, but then I grew up.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #9 - November 22, 2010, 01:08 PM

    To say that "there in no absolute truth" is in itself an absolute truth statement.

    not necessarily, because there very well may be one that we haven't encountered.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #10 - November 22, 2010, 03:16 PM

    Wouldn't say I'm bothered, but rather intrigued - in a way it's simultaneously a humbling and a frustrating thought that we do not know fully the how or why of our universe but as far as the 'why' part is concerned, I echo the sentiments of serrated colon, I do not think there is a specific reason for our existence.


    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #11 - November 22, 2010, 03:59 PM

    The existence of self aware entities.

    I find it a bit strange that we are these curious analytical beings and we can live these incredibly long and complicated lives but never know wether it was just randomness, being watched or assessed or something beyond our comprehension.

    The how is not regarding the emergence of life since the big bang but rather how does reality make sense?

    The why question leads to an infinite regress, so I'm only asking why life or consciousness would even be part of all this chaos?

    And since we most likely won't know the answers to such questions we have to live like it's ok not to know, hence why I'm asking if others are bothered by it.

    Sustainable low cost pleasure...
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #12 - November 22, 2010, 04:17 PM

    I used to think like you but I came to realise that it's much simpler than most folk think.
    We don't have incredibly long and complicated lives, for a start. Our genes do, but then that goes for all species.  there are shellfish, trees, lichen, fungi, tortoises and many other things that live a lot longer that humans do; some of them for thousands of years.
    Reality doesn't have to make sense, it just is. Live with it and stop torturing yourself.
    It's part of what you're calling chaos, although I wouldn't, because it helps us to benefit from what you call chaos. We evolved that way.
    So, no: it doesn't bother me because I've got it sussed and every single extra scientific discovery leads me further along that road.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #13 - November 22, 2010, 04:31 PM

    But god is the best drug of all. Religions failed to explain anything they just told us things. God on the other hand was the inevitable answer to all questions and as such losing god creates an absence that is hard to readjust from.

    Sustainable low cost pleasure...
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #14 - November 22, 2010, 05:16 PM

    To say that "there in no absolute truth" is in itself an absolute truth statement.

    k lemme reword:

    there is no manner of objectively and infallibly verfifying a claim of 'absolute truth' that i know of, therefore i state that there is probably no absolute truth.

    can you stop being a pretentious troll now and go back to hounding ishina?
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #15 - November 22, 2010, 05:31 PM

    Life as an athiest is less certain, but more interesting. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #16 - November 22, 2010, 06:16 PM

    Driven mad by it.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #17 - November 22, 2010, 08:52 PM

    It's a bit like... being able to watch a movie or read a book WITHOUT knowing what the story is about.
    If I knew it before hand I would not even pick it up.


    I don't know if this analogy works because you still know that the book has a purpose whether you fnd out at the start or at the end - I don't think this is the case with existence.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #18 - November 22, 2010, 09:01 PM

    None of the options apply to me. It excites me tbh - I think you should include that option.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #19 - November 22, 2010, 10:34 PM

    So does the justification for existence according to the Quran make you feel any better before as  a Muslim "Allah created us so that we might worship him"

    The question has been answered, why can anybody accept it?  The reason we exist is because of Darwinism from ape to humanoid.  /thread.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #20 - November 22, 2010, 11:01 PM


    http://io9.com/5694701/does-cosmic-background-radiation-reveal-the-universe-before-the-big-bang?skyline=true&s=i it has happened before and will happen again. and is very much actually like the recent plot in stargate universe

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #21 - November 22, 2010, 11:10 PM

    So does the justification for existence according to the Quran make you feel any better before as  a Muslim "Allah created us so that we might worship him"

    The question has been answered, why can anybody accept it?  The reason we exist is because of Darwinism from ape to humanoid.  /thread.


    Humanoid is a science-fiction term (or rather, it has become so)... the proper word is hominid.

    /pedantry
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #22 - November 23, 2010, 12:01 AM

    I don't know if this analogy works because you still know that the book has a purpose whether you fnd out at the start or at the end - I don't think this is the case with existence.

    The analogy does not work because you misunderstood it.

    Even if books were "typed" by fictional "storytelling algorithms" fed by a source of pure randomness, that would not change the fact that I would not want to read the book if I already know how/why the entities act within the story told by the book.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #23 - November 23, 2010, 12:57 AM

    Ignorance of the ultimate truth excites you? Even whilst knowing that you'll most likely never know?

    Sustainable low cost pleasure...
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #24 - November 23, 2010, 01:28 AM

    It's a bit like... being able to watch a movie or read a book WITHOUT knowing what the story is about.
    If I knew it before hand I would not even pick it up.


    When you're reading a book, you are experiencing that moment in time the actual experience of the "adventure" in the current chapter you're reading. That is unless you are just reading the sentences without understanding what is the meaning of the words. What is the use of the brain then? And that is what its all about... enjoying, appreciating and experiencing that particular moment in time..... it is not important for you to know what's the whole story is all about. Would you want to read a book when you already know what's the end will be like? NO! Life is an adventure......and if you appreciate life and you live your daily live with enthusiasm and looking forward for anything that will unfold before you. Would you want to get up if you know that today somebody in a car will knock you down and you will die? NO!

    That is the whole concept of Living for today, the NOW, right at this present moment in time. Today is important because today is when the past and future meets. Today is only meant to be experience.. once you try to write about today, it becomes a past. Once you try to think about today, it become a future.

    This is how I see things around me.......

    Malays by Definition is NOT a Muslim !!!
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #25 - November 23, 2010, 01:57 AM

    Ignorance of the ultimate truth excites you? Even whilst knowing that you'll most likely never know?


    Yes. I would rather not know anything and discover some truths on my own than be born omniscient. Finding out ....is incredibly exciting (to me at least), knowing... isn't so much. I may never know the ultimate truth, but it's the process of searching for it that I love, probably more than anything else in the world...sometimes the journey is the reward... discovering something new, something real, is just an amazing experince. I love it, I love, I love it. It's probably the foremost reason I drag myself out of bed every day. This is why I consider myself spiritual, because I equate spirituality with understanding.

    My first spiritual experience ocured, ironically, when I lost God. My moment of apostasy (and it was pretty much a moment, not a prolonged process like it is for most people) was the best feeling of my life, it was magical. At the time I wouldn't have been able to articulate it, but it felt like starting afresh. I finished one puzzle, a puzzle that I was told was the most important and brilliant in the world, that of Allah, and suddenly I had a whole new puzzle to complete, piece by piece. One infinitely more real and marvelous than the old one, one I doubt I could ever finish, but even putting some pieces together revealed some hitherto unimagined beauties. It was like... opening the door to a world I had until then been peeking at through the keyhole. I knew there was something incredible behind there, but I could only make out its vaguest outline. I was told not to stare too long, my curiosity would lead to my doom, apparently.  And besides, why waste time chancing a glance at it, Allah is far greater. Allah is the greatest. Perfect, unlimited, eternal. Anything compared with infinity becomes infinitely small. The Universe is infintely imperfect and ugly compared with Allah, why would I want it? Why would i want this life? (It was only several months later that realised what a massive effect this had had on me, but that's another story.)

    Now the lock that was Allah is gone, I can finally open the door, I can finally appeciate the only being there is - nature, in all its beauty or, at least, I can try to. And if that does not satisfy you then I'm sorry you had to lose your faith in Allah. I want nothing else. Nothing much mattered to me as a Muslim. Nothing much excited me. I was just apatheitic towards this life and everything in it. But now I can see there is so much out there, out here, I cannot understand how anyone is not excited by that. How can you long for the explantion that Islam offered when reality, as ever, is far superior? There are other truths to be discovered than merely the answer to what may be a meaningless question. There may not be a why. I'd rather there isn't, actually. So tomorrow I will speculate... I will question... I will wonder... becuase no one has all the answers, not God, not Islam, so its important I look for them. My existence is important now...precisely because the explanations are not available... that's why it excited me...  if they were readily available I'd have very little to live for. Not knowing puts a smile on my face, because its a chance to find out. Smiley
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #26 - November 23, 2010, 03:05 AM

    k lemme reword:

    there is no manner of objectively and infallibly verfifying a claim of 'absolute truth' that i know of, therefore i state that there is probably no absolute truth.

    can you stop being a pretentious troll now and go back to hounding ishina?


    ho boy, calm down. I was just reiterating the paradox of whether or not there is an absolute truth . This is like philosophy 101.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #27 - November 23, 2010, 03:30 AM

    ^ Fascinating post Prince Spinoza. Its one of those "what it feels like leaving Islam" posts. Glad you dared to reach out for what truly interested you.
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #28 - November 23, 2010, 09:50 PM

    First I have to make something clear; I do not say that religion or any of its stories were an explanation to reality. I used to have this eagerness about dying....it represented the moment I would know everything. This is of course because as a good muslim I would stand before god and we would be as familiar as he was to me in my mind, and all knowing as he is he would know that there was no longer reason for me to suffer in curiosity. He would explain to me how it was that his existence was possible. Now I want to know how it is that existence is possible.

    To me this whole thing is very strange. Like some simulation where we emerge and expire and never find out how or why the whole thing happened. I love to discover and I love to speculate, but there is no scenario where if offered the option between ultimate knowledge and a life of searching for the pieces of a puzzle which might itself be a small puzzle in a bigger one, I wouldn't hesitate in choosing the ecstasy of knowledge (sagan!) over that of discovery. But in facing the reality before me I'm happy it isn't the bullshit of religion and I'm happy to attain higher and higher states of knowledge and understanding along what will hopefully be an exhilarating journey, but I know that in the moments before my death I will think to myself "It never happened, I never knew". Or hopefully by then it won't matter...

    Sustainable low cost pleasure...
  • Re: Existence minus explanation
     Reply #29 - June 27, 2011, 07:33 AM

    So does the justification for existence according to the Quran make you feel any better before as  a Muslim "Allah created us so that we might worship him"

    The question has been answered, why can anybody accept it?  The reason we exist is because of Darwinism from ape to humanoid.  /thread.


    I never liked (or believed was true) that the only reason we are here is to worship a God. Ugh. That sounds so.... lame.

    And what do you mean? We know about evolution, but what about cosmology? That blows my mind. So does infinite regression. How can we ever know how the universe came to existence if something always had to create something else for it to come about? How can something just have existed all along? How is it even possible we are here?  wacko wacko wacko


    I clearly don't know anything about this stuff though.

    Ugh, bedtime for me.

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
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